Arc Fault Breakers questions

[mike93lx]

My panel is in my garage, so this counts

I have a Reliance Controls panel that is listed to use a bunch of different breakers:
Siemens: QP, QT, QPF, QFP, QE, QPH, HQP, QPHF, QAHF
Square D: Series HOM
C-H: Series BD, BR, BQ & GFC
Murray: Type MP

All existing breakers are Murray, none are GFCI or AFCI. I currently take care of GFCI at point of use on applicable circuits (bathrooms, garage, kitchen)

I would like to start switching over to AFCI, but don't want to spend that much all at once (30ish breakers).

The brands all look about the same in cost, but Murray is a hair cheaper. $44 for combo AFCI/GFCI, $40 for just AFCI. 20A 2-pole AFCI only is $85. I'll shop around for price when I'm ready, but like the idea of getting something that is stocked at HD for convenience. Any reason to not just go with Murray?

a few questions:

1. Where should I prioritize? bedrooms and living rooms?
2. Should I stick with AFCI at the breaker and GFCI at the outlet? All GFCI outlets in the house are within a few years old, several are from this year.
3. Are there any 120V circuits that shouldn't be on AFCI? Thinking stuff like the dedicated circuits for my furnace, gas stove, dishwasher, fridge.
4. Current 240V circuits are: well (20A), A/C (20A), Dryer (30A), Shop Heater (30A) and Welder (50A). Should the well or A/C be on AFCI? the A/C is a minisplit that is connected with a 6-20 plug indoors.

Please don't bother posting stuff like AFCI are a waste of money and are only pushed by big-power.

Thanks!

 

[MattT]

240v appliances aren't normally put on AFCI breakers. The 2 pole you found was probably intended for use on MWBCs. And the first thing you need to do is figure out whether you've got any MWBCs. If you do that will limit your breaker options.

1. AFCIs are primarily intended to prevent fires caused by extension cords and power strips. So give the areas you use those priority.

2. I prefer dual function breakers. Puts everything in the spot people will check when a circuit trips. Plus I hate GFI receptacles. Though if you have MWBCs dual function breakers might not be an option.

3. This is my opinion only and might violate code. I use conventional breakers on refrigeration because a nuisance trip can get very expensive. Other 120v appliances not sure it's worth the cost but it won't hurt anything either.

4. The minisplit shouldn't be plugged in indoors. Move that to a disconnect outside. And check the nameplate to see if the disconnect should be fused. The 240v stuff doesn't require AFCI protection and I doubt you'll find 2 pole 30A AFCI breakers either.

 

[mike93lx]

240v appliances aren't normally put on AFCI breakers. The 2 pole you found was probably intended for use on MWBCs. And the first thing you need to do is figure out whether you've got any MWBCs. If you do that will limit your breaker options.

1. AFCIs are primarily intended to prevent fires caused by extension cords and power strips. So give the areas you use those priority.

2. I prefer dual function breakers. Puts everything in the spot people will check when a circuit trips. Plus I hate GFI receptacles. Though if you have MWBCs dual function breakers might not be an option.

3. This is my opinion only and might violate code. I use conventional breakers on refrigeration because a nuisance trip can get very expensive. Other 120v appliances not sure it's worth the cost but it won't hurt anything either.

4. The minisplit shouldn't be plugged in indoors. Move that to a disconnect outside. And check the nameplate to see if the disconnect should be fused. The 240v stuff doesn't require AFCI protection and I doubt you'll find 2 pole 30A AFCI breakers either.

Thanks. No MWBC here.

The mini split is a Freidrich Breeze, yes it is plugged in indoors. It is a precharged DIY setup that is designed to be a simpler install than normal.

 

[exranger06]

There are a few locations where AFCI is not required: bathrooms, garage, attic, crawlspace, outdoor receptacles and lights, unfinished basement, outbuildings (sheds, detached garage, barn, etc). But keep in mind that a circuit needs to be AFCI protected if any device is in an area that requires it. For example, outdoor lights don't need AFCI, like I said. However, if the switch that controls them is in the kitchen (which is an area that does require AFCI), then the outdoor lights need to be AFCI protected. All 15A and 20A 120v circuits need to be AFCI protected, even dedicated circuits like the dishwasher, fridge, and furnace, unless they're in one of the areas that I listed above that don't require it.

 

[AntonLargiader]

I don't have a HD nearby, but rather a Lowes, and I find that I don't get by DF breakers there because they don't have what I want at the best price. I get them from Amazon. DF 15A and 20A Homeline breakers are in the low $40s. Oddly enough they are cheaper than the AFCI-only.

Code puts AFCI in bedrooms first, and GFCI in basements/outdoors/damp locations first, so I would prioritize those. I'm on the same path you are; I'll keep chipping away at it a few breakers at a time.

Although AFCI might be primarily intended to protect against bad devices, I've experienced a house fire and I want to protect against bad wiring as well. Therefore I don't see it as being specific to some areas of the house, but rather any circuit where there are junctions or devices in the house. Circuits that only run to the outdoors are low risk, so while I'd be keen to update my outdoor units to GFCI I wouldn't necessarily look at them as needing AFCI. If code eventually feels otherwise, I'll listen.

 

[mike93lx]

yeah, i checked amazon and they are a few bucks cheaper than HD.

I'm a little worried about rewiring circuits for AFCI. The panel is already pretty packed and I'm doubtful most of the neutrals are long enough.

 

[Bert_]

Unless you're doing major work on the circuits you mentioned there is nothing requiring you to install afci's. No way would I install afci's unless I was absolutely required to.

 

[AntonLargiader]

He's not doing it because he thinks it's required.

Mike, if the existing neutrals won't reach then you'd have to extend them. Maybe you could rearrange some stuff to put the DF breakers higher or lower in the panel so that the neutrals do reach. Can you post a pic?

 

[mike93lx]

Unless you're doing major work on the circuits you mentioned there is nothing requiring you to install afci's. No way would I install afci's unless I was absolutely required to.

I know I am not required.

Why wouldn't you use them? cost? lets hear a compelling argument.

 

[mike93lx]

He's not doing it because he thinks it's required.

Mike, if the existing neutrals won't reach then you'd have to extend them. Maybe you could rearrange some stuff to put the DF breakers higher or lower in the panel so that the neutrals do reach. Can you post a pic?

I'm a little hesitant to post a pic...it's kind of ugly and a little embarrassing.

I really need to talk a day and clean up the panel. Pull stuff out, sort by length and reconnect. just not very high on the list, but this project might be the right impetus.

 

[Bert_]

I know I am not required.

Why wouldn't you use them? cost? lets hear a compelling argument.

I am very skeptical that they do the job they are advertised to do.

I do know they are a huge nuisance. Especially on a circuit where tools or small appliances are used. I've lost count of the calls I've had for nuisance trips. Sometimes putting in a new arc fault make it stop. Other times it will start nuisance tripping again after a few weeks/months. Replacing with a standard breaker is a guaranteed fix...

 

[larry4406]

I am very skeptical that they do the job they are advertised to do.

I do know they are a huge nuisance. Especially on a circuit where tools or small appliances are used. I've lost count of the calls I've had for nuisance trips. Sometimes putting in a new arc fault make it stop. Other times it will start nuisance tripping again after a few weeks/months. Replacing with a standard breaker is a guaranteed fix...

New home construction guy here - we had many nuisance trips where customer's vacuum cleaners and small appliances would trip the arc fault just like Bert said. Sometimes the new arc fault solves it, many times does not. Demonstration of old style standard breaker works fine; customer pissed that electrician will not leave old style breaker in place. Even had one customers plasma TV tripping the arc fault breaker.

In all fairness, these false trips largely occurred 4-5 years ago and were rampant - Eaton BR style. Same electrician and same Eaton BR panels then and today and few if any recent issues so perhaps there was a design/manufacturing glitch back then which has been solved.

 

[Showkey]

My neighbors new home has arc fault breakers. Two years old, had problems from day one. He has had numerous call backs for nuisance tripping. The builder and electrical contractor have done post 12 several times. They also won’t permanently install a regular breaker. Not sure what all was done, but some sections of the home were rewired with no change. The complete service box was changed. Neighbors skill set is not at DIY level.......but he is pissed. He is considering litigation???????

 

[toplessHO]

change panel out to a new SqD with neutral bussbar made for this.
If you shop around you can find combo breakers for QO loadcenter around $20 each.

 

[mike93lx]

change panel out to a new SqD with neutral bussbar made for this.
If you shop around you can find combo breakers for QO loadcenter around $20 each.

No chance. I have a new panel that has an integrated generator transfer switch. Swapping to a new panel would greatly exceed the premium of buying new breakers

 

[Bert_]

I have and will again put in regular breakers if there are any problems after the inspection.

 

[larry4406]

I have and will again put in regular breakers if there are any problems after the inspection.

I think this may have happened on my job site as well....

 

[Showkey]

I think this may have happened on my job site as well....

Think that’s solution my neighbors home is headed. May have already happened

 

[AntonLargiader]

I remember a thread a year or so ago where people were reporting panels full of "bad" breakers. Most people seem to have no issue with them. I just don't believe that a whole panel full of breakers can be bad. I suspect there's a bunch of **** wiring in some houses that trips AF breakers.

 

[marinusdees]

Any motor with brushes will trip an AFCI. Pain in the ***. Includes vacuum sweepers, hair dryers, some electric drills, etc., etc.

 

[mike93lx]

Any motor with brushes will trip an AFCI. Pain in the ***. Includes vacuum sweepers, hair dryers, some electric drills, etc., etc.

Good to know. Vac is cordless, but my wife does use a hairdryer.

I think i will buy a couple and try it out

 

[AntonLargiader]

Any motor with brushes will trip an AFCI. Pain in the ***. Includes vacuum sweepers, hair dryers, some electric drills, etc., etc.

Not my experience. Several drills, old Delta chop saw, wet-dry vacs, all of the tools used by the construction workers while building our porch (including fans and compressors), not a single trip. Homeline DF breaker.

 

[SALIV8]

Don't afci breakers require independent neutrals to all feeds? I would be surprised if the OP had individual neutrals on each circuit.

 

[exranger06]

Don't afci breakers require independent neutrals to all feeds? I would be surprised if the OP had individual neutrals on each circuit.

No, if you have a MWBC you simply use a double pole AFCI breaker. That's the only reason they exist, since 240V circuits don't require AFCI. But the OP already said he doesn't have any MWBCs in his house back in post #3.

 

[mike93lx]

Don't afci breakers require independent neutrals to all feeds? I would be surprised if the OP had individual neutrals on each circuit.

Why wouldn't I have individual neutrals? I mentioned earlier I don't have any MWBC's

 

[jim111]

I think maybe he was referring to the fact that neutrals from different circuits cannot connect anywhere. In older homes especially we find that sometimes, in device boxes.

 

[acer66]

I have a newly wired house with a big eaton br, yes I know, panel full with arc fault breakers and after two years I had only an issue with one of them.

 

[AntonLargiader]

I think maybe he was referring to the fact that neutrals from different circuits cannot connect anywhere. In older homes especially we find that sometimes, in device boxes.

Of course that's a GFCI (and therefore DF) problem rather than an AFCI-specific one.

 

[steves_001]

FWIW, I also tried the Murray brand. Had tripping over hardly and use at all. Eventually used the OEM brand and that resolved the problem.
We have an outlet store here in MN that gets a lot of returns etc from big box stores and resells. I tried a few of the murrays also from there, same issue. They had a LOT of these breakers, all murray. I learned to pay the extra and use OE.

 

[exranger06]

I think maybe he was referring to the fact that neutrals from different circuits cannot connect anywhere. In older homes especially we find that sometimes, in device boxes.

Well that's just against code and should be rectified, AFCI or no AFCI.

 

[mike93lx]

I think maybe he was referring to the fact that neutrals from different circuits cannot connect anywhere. In older homes especially we find that sometimes, in device boxes.

Ah. Yeah, I could see that being a nightmare.

I am not aware of any boxes fed with multiple circuits, but in a 50 year old house, a lot of changes have been made...

Sounds like a teardown and rebuild is in order

 

[Bert_]

Of course that's a GFCI (and therefore DF) problem rather than an AFCI-specific one.

Afci's will sense and trip if there is a imbalance. They are not as sensitive as a GFCI. I think most afci's will trip if there is 20-30ma imbalance.

 

[AntonLargiader]

Afci's will sense and trip if there is a imbalance. They are not as sensitive as a GFCI. I think most afci's will trip if there is 20-30ma imbalance.

LEarned something from you and Jim111 here. From this Square D document: "GFIs have the sensitivity (4–6 mA) needed to provide protection for people who might contact the circuit in some way. Square D AFCIs do not provide people protection, but do detect residual current levels starting at approximately 50 mA."