Arc fault breakers tripping on ground fault

[pattenp]

I upgraded some breakers to the new arc fault combo style and now I have two circuits that trip once every month or so. The breakers have two LED’s and when both are on after a trip indicates a GFI trip. House was built in 1960 and has the romex wire that has the silver cloth outer sheathing. The ground wire in the #12 cable barely looks like it is a size #14 more like #16. I can’t find any obvious problem, could it be this old wiring is bleeding? Should I just put in new standard breakers?

 

[mrb]

what make / model are these breakers?

 

[pattenp]

I need to make a correction to my terms. The fault indicator is indicating a arc fault to ground. The breaker brand is Siemens combination style to indicate line to neutral or line to ground and series arc faults.

 

[cowboyjosh]

Probably some outlet, switch, fixture connection misbehving. Trac the circuit, check all connections, wire nuts, etc. Your Romex is woefully outdated too, i know what your talking about with the ground wires, your right on 12 guage wire Romex, the ground wire is 14 or 16 at best. Do you have any other circuits where you upgraded to AFCI breakers? If so, are thry having any issues?

 

[pattenp]

I upgraded breakers on 6 circuits. The living room and one kitchen circuit are the only two that are acting up. This was a house I purchased on foreclosure and had to do a lot of fixing. I replaced every outlet and had to repair some mickey mouse wiring done but the previous owner.

 

[Teken]

Does code specify arc fault breakers in none living spaces? In our neck of the woods they are installed only in the bedrooms.

 

[pattenp]

I thought a living room and kitchen were living space. I don't know the NEC verbatim as far as Arc fault breakers go but I installed them on all the 120v outlet circuits because of the wiring in the house being 50 years old. I was thinking it would be the safe thing to do.

Update: 2011 NEC requires them on all 120v 15 and 20 amp circuits in family rooms, living rooms, etc.

 

[fefarms]

I thought a living room and kitchen were living space. I don't know the NEC verbatim as far as Arc fault breakers go but I installed them on all the 120v outlet circuits because of the wiring in the house being 50 years old. I was thinking it would be the safe thing to do.

Update: 2011 NEC requires them on all 120v 15 and 20 amp circuits in family rooms, living rooms, etc.

Most jurisdictions will take 2 years or more before the 2011 NEC is adopted as the local code. Earlier codes require AFCI breakers only in bedrooms. In my opinion arc fault breakers are a least partly a scam brought by the circuit breaker manufacturers (to generate higher sales). The theory is that AFCI breakers will provide protection in situations where the homeowner does stupid things like running extension cords underneath carpeting. In practice it can get very difficult to differentiate between complex loads like a computer power supply or fluorescent light and an actual line-to-neutral or line-to- ground arcing fault. When AFCIs were first put into widespread service they gained a deserved reputation for large numbers of false trips. Because of this, when I wired my house (in 2004) I stuck to the local code minimum for AFCI use. I expect they've improved the technology by now, but I wouldn't stand on my head trying to make AFCIs work if they aren't absolutely required.

 

[blue dog]

FYI, i have found arc fault breakers do not like electronic dimmer switches for some reason.

 

[Norcal]

The 2008 NEC requires AFCI's everywhere GFCI's are not req. in a residence...

 

[cowboyjosh]

Some brands of breakers, AFCI's included, tend to be more temper mental then others. Siemens and Eaton BR, have given my guys fits, Square D QO tend to behave better then all the others in our experiences. Another good brand second only to SQD QO is Eaton Cutler Hammer CH series.

You might swap breakers around if you have not already done so, to see if its a breaker issue or if its indeed a wiring problem. Siemens is a very innovative company, however sometimes their products are problematic in real world situations in houses like yours and mine. One of their products that come to mind which are a great idea, but a PITA, is the Multi Wire Branch AFCI breakers.

I hate the 2008 book, and Im sure I'll hate the 2011 NEC book, AFCI's on every circuit not GFCI'ed is stupid, stupid, stupid. While it rarely happens, I bet in years to come some of this **** gets repealed a bit at least on the local levels. Our AHJ has adopted most of the 2008 book but they forgive some of the AFCI requirements, while our county AHJ requires AFCI's but has forgiven garage door openers being required to be GFCI'ed so long as only a single outlet is installed for the GDO to prevent one from plugging in cord reels, etc.


As for BLUE DOGS problem with Dimmers and AFCI's I have heard of this issue as well, as for what I hear, Lutron and SQD for sure are aware of this, and have made changes over the past year and a half with the Maestro dimmers, older dimmers that require a neutral thought you might be SOL.

 

[pattenp]

I went back and pulled out all the outlets and checked all the connections on the kitchen circuit. One thing I found was that the wire clamp in the first outlet box on the circuit was tightened to the point it was cutting into the outer sheathing of the cable. This house has metal boxes that have flat plates in the boxes that hold down the cables. The problem is the edge of the plate cuts into the cable if over tightened. I wrapped electrical tape around the cable as best as I could and reinstalled the clamp leaving it snug but not clamped as tight as it was originally. I plugged in a toaster oven, hair dryer and a lamp in this circuit and let them run for an hour and no problems. My son is now telling me that it got to the point that the breaker would arc fault trip a lot when using the toaster oven. I asked him why didn’t he say something sooner, his reply was “I don’t know. We just stopped using those outlets.” Kids! I’ll just wait and see if what I did solved the problem.

 

[Teken]

Interested to see what happens long term keep us all posted on the final results.

 

[cowboyjosh]

Yup, Heating elements, along with cheap motors in over priced, junk vacuum cleaners brands like Dysons are known to cause intermidtent AFCI trips. Keep us posted.

 

[jkeyser14]

I expect they've improved the technology by now, but I wouldn't stand on my head trying to make AFCIs work if they aren't absolutely required.

I have new Cutler Hammer ones in my house and I've yet to have any false trips (fingers crossed). Computers, battery backups, tv's, vacuum cleaners, power tools, lighting, and no issues so far.

 

[Thruxton]

^+1, I installed Cutler-Hammer CH series AFCIs a couple of years ago (on bedroom circuits only, per contemporary local code requirements) and have not had a single false trip.

 

[Grumpy365]

junk vacuum cleaners brands like Dysons are known to cause intermidtent AFCI trips.

I never heard Dyson referred to as junk. Usually they are pretty expensive.

 

[Norcal]

I never heard Dyson referred to as junk. Usually they are pretty expensive.

Being expensive does not always mean high quality, I have heard about Dyson & having trouble w/ AFCI's.

 

[cowboyjosh]

Talk to vacuum stores that do warranty work on Dyson; they'll tell you all sorts of Dyson nightmares. For a good vacuum with a good motor that isn't going to trip touchy AFCI's the best bet is going to a mom and pop vacuum store that sells Miele, Simplicity, Riccar, or even Oreck vacuums. Anything you can buy at a discount store is pretty much throw away, trash. I don't mean to hijack this discussion and turn it into a vacuum debate, just putting out there what we see, all the time; and 8 out of 10 times its a Dyson tripping the AFCI, the other times its Hoover (used to be made in Ohio, now made in China), and Eureka.

Personally my favorite vacuum, is Kirby (despite their door to door sales practices) we bought ours from a Kirby storefront; they are still hand made in the good old USA in Cleveland, Ohio or Texas; we have 2 of them, and they have never tripped a AFCI or given us a bit of trouble. I think we only paid $150.00 more per vacuum then the middle of the road Dyson, of course you have to negotiate when buying a Kirby, even from a Kirby storefront. The biggest con of Kirby is they still weigh a ton.

Some people rave about central vacs, we install central vacs, and I think they are a bunch of hocus pocus, Im a clean freak and I don't think they clean all that well; this coming from a guy who's electrical contracting company installs them.

 

[blue dog]

As for BLUE DOGS problem with Dimmers and AFCI's I have heard of this issue as well, as for what I hear, Lutron and SQD for sure are aware of this, and have made changes over the past year and a half with the Maestro dimmers, older dimmers that require a neutral thought you might be SOL.

Good call on the maestro dimmers. All so had issues with a circuit that had a lutron graphic eye. tripped the arc fault every time.
What is the deal with that anyway? i would love to learn what the issue is.

 

[blue dog]

Yup, Heating elements, along with cheap motors in over priced, junk vacuum cleaners brands like Dysons are known to cause intermidtent AFCI trips. Keep us posted.

Your trippin my friend, the Dyson is the best vac i have ever owned, hands down.

 

[Rosco]

Your trippin my friend, the Dyson is the best vac i have ever owned, hands down.

X2 and have owned several.

 

[cowboyjosh]

Your trippin my friend, the Dyson is the best vac i have ever owned, hands down.

I'm not saying they dont vacuum well, just cheap Panasonic motors that can play hell with AFCI's especially as the motor ages, and they have fragile plastic parts; not built tough enough for a clean freak like myself who uses the vacuum at least 30 minutes a day, everyday.

Let us all know when that Dyson celebrates its 10th birthday.