Arc fault breakers

[Daves69]

Having issues with arc fault breakers tripping on the bedroom lighting circuits. Lights are off and no one home and the breakers trip. Will work for a couple of days then trip again.
What could be causing this? Weak breakers?

 

[klassenl]

Nuisance tripping is a scourge upon the world. The introduction of AFCI protection has not improved the situation.

So what has changed lately? Have you put in new dimmers or new light bulbs. Have you added or deleted anything.

 

[AntonLargiader]

Which breakers do you have? The ones I have (Homeline dual function) have a diagnostic that tells you what caused the last trip. If you have this functionality, use it to find out if you're tripping for overcurrent, parallel AF, series AF, GF, whatever. Good starting point for figuring out the cause.

 

[Daves69]

The breakers are Siemens. Nothing has changed the house is 3 years old and the nuisance is becoming more of a problem.
Would it violate code if I replace the AFCI with standard breakers?

 

[AntonLargiader]

The Siemens CAFCI breakers have the diagnostic I mentioned. Am I misreading you, or are you deliberately uninterested in finding out why they are tripping? If it were my house I’d sure as heck want to know. Just could be that they are telling you about a problem that a regular breaker doesn’t detect. That’s what they’re for, you know.

 

[popbigguy]

Here's my story on those AFC's. New house 2011. Our kitchen lights circuit would snap off every once in a while, did it for years. I thought I did everything to that circuit, all new switches, rewired all the lights, still triggered, drove us nuts. We got a water Furnace Geo HVAC in our house with floor heat water heat option. We were working on the floor heat system one time and disabled it and the lights quit triggering off (???). Come to find out the pump for the water storage tank was triggering the kitchen lights to go out. Figured this out simply by trail and error. We changed out the pump and haven't had ANY problems since then, for a couple of years now. My morale of the story,,,, something on another circuit (in my case a motor pump) can be triggering the AFC breaker!

 

[rpcraft]

If he isn't I am interested in learning more about the diagnostic feature. I'm not having problems but anything that allows you to diagnose without swapping hard parts is worth learning in my book

 

[Dirtydan69]

Same here. Would love to know the diagnostics feature. Hmmm. Time for a google search.

 

[pbon]

I just installed 4 of those Siemens combined acfi/gfci in the carriage house I am renovating into my shop. Hope they work. I did all the wiring and will know everything connected.

 

[AntonLargiader]

The Siemens page says, about their CAFCI breakers:
- The LED indications will appear for 5 seconds each time the AFCI is turned “ON” up to 30 days after the last trip.
- One LED will be illuminated if the last trip was a result of an arcing fault (as indicated on each leg).
- Three LEDs will be illuminated if the last trip was a result of an arcing fault to ground.
- No indication will be displayed if the AFCI trips as a result of an overcurrent condition.
- This last known trip indication can also be cleared from memory to assist with verifying resolution of the problem.

I have a few of the Homeline DF (GF+CAF) breakers in my new subpanel and with them you hold the test button and turn the breaker on. Depending on the last stored fault, it will re-trip:
- immediately: Arcing to ground, Shared neutral, Grounded neutral, Ground fault
- after two seconds: Parallel arc fault, Series arc fault
- after five seconds: No Fault, Thermal overload, Short circuit

 

[acer66]

Interesting, I have to check if mine have something like that feature but I’ll doubt it since I have cheap eaton breaker.

OP, you could also just swap the breakers in question with a non tripping one.
That would at least tell you if its the circuit or the breaker.

 

[850xpeps]

Arc fault breakers are annoying b pieces of shat. Not looking forward to having them in my new build. I suspect lots of my breakers will be swapped out after final inspection. We just built a house and couldn’t run tools off the plugs.


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[acer66]

Arc fault breakers are annoying b pieces of shat. Not looking forward to having them in my new build. I suspect lots of my breakers will be swapped out after final inspection. We just built a house and couldn’t run tools off the plugs.


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I have eaton br arc fault breakers and I have no problems running tools.

 

[rpcraft]

I have a good number of them running to the bedrooms, office and living room in my house but did not understand their features. In my back bedroom I did have a breaker pop one day when my laser printer was warming up but I also had a ton of **** plugged into a surge suppressor and the rest of the outlets so I thought maybe I had overloaded the line, but now I've read that is the number one problem when you have a surge protector plugged in. Since then I have taken off a few items off and spread the load amongst the outlets but I still have the printer on that surge suppressor but now I have a better understanding that it was not a problem with the amp load, bud had no idea about the diagnostic features. It's been forever since I really worked with any house circuitry so I guess I have a little to learn. It's a shame when you buy a house they don't have someone come teach you a little about some of the features in the house... Oh well.

 

[AntonLargiader]

.We just built a house and couldn’t run tools off the plugs.

Pretty much every AFCI discussion has someone's anecdote like that. Some of them are kind of extreme... every breaker pops with no load, replaced all of the breakers, still happens. I have a hard time believing that there are cartons and cartons of bad AFCI breakers out there, and find it a lot easier to believe that there is a lot of crappy new house wiring out there, like cheap back-stabbed receps.

Also, some tools are "dirty" as far as brush arcing goes, but the AFCI manufacturers have discussed trying to get ahead of that. Some tools might just need a regular circuit.

 

[850xpeps]

I agree tools shop be aloud to operate on a regular breaker.

I don’t know how it’s all suppose to work. But I do know how sickening they are. While I imagine actull amperage draw has nothing to do with it, we can run a table saw or hop saw sometimes and sometimes we can’t. But if we can’t it’s not for long. Sometimes it’ll kick immediately and other after a short while running the table saw.

I also hate tr receptacles.

 

[rpcraft]

That makes sense as to why my electrician has regular breakers on my garage outlets then. I suspect it has to do with tools or equipment that has a start up cycle and draws a lot of amps at startup and then ramps down once it is running continuously. It also explains why my printer starting up after being in standby forever caused that breaker to trip. I guess all circuit breakers are not created the same..

 

[Dagny]

I have installed thousands of C-H CH breakers with no issues.

 

[Daves69]

The Siemens page says, about their CAFCI breakers:
- The LED indications will appear for 5 seconds each time the AFCI is turned “ON” up to 30 days after the last trip.
- One LED will be illuminated if the last trip was a result of an arcing fault (as indicated on each leg).
- Three LEDs will be illuminated if the last trip was a result of an arcing fault to ground.
- No indication will be displayed if the AFCI trips as a result of an overcurrent condition.
- This last known trip indication can also be cleared from memory to assist with verifying resolution of the problem.

I have a few of the Homeline DF (GF+CAF) breakers in my new subpanel and with them you hold the test button and turn the breaker on. Depending on the last stored fault, it will re-trip:
- immediately: Arcing to ground, Shared neutral, Grounded neutral, Ground fault
- after two seconds: Parallel arc fault, Series arc fault
- after five seconds: No Fault, Thermal overload, Short circuit

Thank you for the trouble code info I will see what shows when the next one trips.

 

[jim111]

That makes sense as to why my electrician has regular breakers on my garage outlets then. I suspect it has to do with tools or equipment that has a start up cycle and draws a lot of amps at startup and then ramps down once it is running continuously. It also explains why my printer starting up after being in standby forever caused that breaker to trip. I guess all circuit breakers are not created the same..

Garages, attached or detached, are not required by code to have arc-fault protected receptacles. They are required to be ground-fault protected however

 

[ddawg16]

Having issues with arc fault breakers tripping on the bedroom lighting circuits. Lights are off and no one home and the breakers trip. Will work for a couple of days then trip again.
What could be causing this? Weak breakers?

I had the exact same problem when I installed a GFCI outlet. With the GFCI wired in, it would trip after 30 min, or maybe a day. Disconnect GFCI, no problems.

Replaced GFCI with a new one. Same problem.

It ended up being a broken wire at the back of the box. I found it when I was removing the GFCI again and noticed the hot was bending kinda strange. Fixed it....0 issues since.

I've ran every portable power tool off all of my GFCI ckts with 0 issues. The fact it detected that broken wire tells me they work.

You have had them for 3 years so we can assume they are wired correctly.

What else is on that ckt? If nothing else, you might try removing one bulb at a time. I'm going to assume most of your lighting is CFL or LED

 

[acer66]

Guess I am one of the lucky ones, I have sure protector and run power tools when I working on the house and have not had a single afci trip in almost a year after moving in.

 

[dscheidt]

Guess I am one of the lucky ones, I have sure protector and run power tools when I working on the house and have not had a single afci trip in almost a year after moving in.

It shouldn't be luck getting properly installed house wiring. With very very few exceptions, AFCI trips are indicating a problem. Early AFCI had some problems, particularly with RF interference. Current stuff are pretty reliable.

 

[acer66]

It shouldn't be luck getting properly installed house wiring. With very very few exceptions, AFCI trips are indicating a problem. Early AFCI had some problems, particularly with RF interference. Current stuff are pretty reliable.

The whole house got recently completely rewired so I guess that explains it.

 

[86turbodsl]

I had siemens AFCI in my house when i built it in 2009. I ripped all the offenders out after inspection. They are a scourge on mankind.

 

[mcbane]

GFCI and AFCI are why you want a really big panel with lots of breaker sockets on a new build or upgrade, so that any important devices (alarm system, refrigerator, etc) can be on their own dedicated circuits. Where code allows, you want those important devices on non-GFCI/AFCI circuits.

Nothing worse than coming home from vacation to find that a refrigerator on a GFCI circuit was subjected to a "nuisance" trip a week ago.

 

[Zeke]

AFCI breakers can't be used with a MWBC w/o problems. Only experience tells me this. This problem extends to neutrals being ganged together from different branch circuits. In my experience. Each circuit that has its own neutral back to the panel, regardless of how many devices, will function properly with an AFCI breaker or inline device. I discovered this the hard way so just passing a tip along no matter what the pundits say.

 

[850xpeps]

So would this be why a brand new house would have issues tripping arc fault
Breakers? I want to know how to avoid issues on my new build.

 

[bczygan]

Why do we even need them?

Expensive and cause problems.....

Try and convince me.....

Bill

 

[850xpeps]

Electrical code......

 

[Firebrick43]

Thankfully not in Indiana

 

[850xpeps]

I remember in like 03 when we had to start using them on temp panels on job sites. GFI plugs were so effing annoying. Constantly tripping with moisture.

 

[Zeke]

So would this be why a brand new house would have issues tripping arc fault
Breakers? I want to know how to avoid issues on my new build.

Shouldn't if wired correctly. Think of this, in markets that I built we ran 'clean' circuits to the cash registers. This was back in the 80's so the new registers were not as sophisticated as today. In a market there is lots of electrical noise — refrigeration and lighting being sources. So an isolated neutral did the trick. In its own run, not run with a bunch of noisy circuits in a common conduit. It doesn't have to be that fancy in a house, just don't mix up a bunch of neutrals just because you can.

I did a little bit of reading and it seems GE has addressed the problem and now makes an AFCI that will work on a MWBC. Otherwise most electricians posting on forums know that shared neutrals and AFCI's are problematic. Some say it won't work at all, but it will until the right load comes along and then it doesn't. Commonly called a nuisance trip. I think that word is a misnomer.

 

[850xpeps]

So my house has a Schneider panel installed now. I will be doing lots of the wiring. With some guidance from electrician(who wired the house that’s tripping the arc faults). His opinion was they are junk and don’t work right. But could it be the laziness in running 3 conductor wire and sharing neutrals? The outside plugs trip and some interior as well. Some other interior ones don’t.

How do I avoid this with my new place? Don’t share netural? How does that work for kitchen plugs?

 

[Zeke]

What do you mean how does that work with kitchen wiring. The only reason MWBC are used in kitchens is because of the number of required circuits all in proximity. For example: the DW and disposer typically come off the same outlet but there will be 2 circuits in that outlet supplied by a 12/3 cable. It's just a habit to run one cable to an outlet like that.

However, and I stated this before above, GE makes an AFCI for this application.

Why am I so fascinated with AFCI's when most hate them? For one, my house nearly burned because of a arc that did not produce a load to trip the breaker. I heard it for a few hours in a heavy rain and didn't quite know what was going on until I killed that breaker and the hum went away. Later in the box I could see charring. Scary ****.

The second reason is a licensed sparky and I rewired the entire 90 YO house from knob and tube to 2011 NEC. I had those nuisance trips. Since we did the rewire in 3 sessions. some old K & T was still in use. Wherever that was connected to any new AFCI circuit I had problems until the final session where we cut it all loose. You see, typically K & T uses a network of neutral leads all joined up as it goes back the panel. It's not even in the same holes as the hot leads. You can get completely confused as to what wire is going where. Best to wreck it ALL out and start over.

This has nothing to do with wiring a new home. It just addresses the theory.

 

[850xpeps]

What do you mean how does that work with kitchen wiring. The only reason MWBC are used in kitchens is because of the number of required circuits all in proximity. For example: the DW and disposer typically come off the same outlet but there will be 2 circuits in that outlet supplied by a 12/3 cable. It's just a habit to run one cable to an outlet like that.



However, and I stated this before above, GE makes an AFCI for this application.



Why am I so fascinated with AFCI's when most hate them? For one, my house nearly burned because of a arc that did not produce a load to trip the breaker. I heard it for a few hours in a heavy rain and didn't quite know what was going on until I killed that breaker and the hum went away. Later in the box I could see charring. Scary ****.



The second reason is a licensed sparky and I rewired the entire 90 YO house from knob and tube to 2011 NEC. I had those nuisance trips. Since we did the rewire in 3 sessions. some old K & T was still in use. Wherever that was connected to any new AFCI circuit I had problems until the final session where we cut it all loose. You see, typically K & T uses a network of neutral leads all joined up as it goes back the panel. It's not even in the same holes as the hot leads. You can get completely confused as to what wire is going where. Best to wreck it ALL out and start over.



This has nothing to do with wiring a new home. It just addresses the theory.

Yes that’s what I mean dealing with places like a kitchen where it’s more convenient to run circuits like that.

But why would this be an issue if say only one plug on the circuit is used anyway?

My last house had burnt insulation on the dw feed because someone didn’t install a marrette properly which caused the wire to get hot. Glad I caught when I did.

 

[Zeke]

Yes that’s what I mean dealing with places like a kitchen where it’s more convenient to run circuits like that.

But why would this be an issue if say only one plug on the circuit is used anyway?

My last house had burnt insulation on the dw feed because someone didn’t install a marrette properly which caused the wire to get hot. Glad I caught when I did.

It has nothing to do with the number of outlets used on any given circuit. Is has to do with the neutral being shared by 2 or more circuits which can be avoided. You have to understand that in the panel your neutral from any circuit is tied to the AFCI breaker itself, not the neutral buss. There is a white wire coming off the breaker that goes to the buss. So it's an 'isolated' neutral, if you will.

So that should dispel any notion that if all neutrals go to the same buss, why can't they be tied together elsewhere.

Remember, I keep saying that there are AFCI's that do work with MWBC's if you have that existing situation or want to wire it that way. For me, it's not that much more wire to run if MWBC's are not used.

 

[86turbodsl]

i had nuisance trips on my house, and there was NO neutral sharing ANYWHERE in the house. I wired it myself, i know whats there. Another data point.

 

[Zeke]

i had nuisance trips on my house, and there was NO neutral sharing ANYWHERE in the house. I wired it myself, i know whats there. Another data point.

I had a ceiling fan that tripped the breaker. Also, I understand 3-way switches can be a problem. Not one I can explain.

 

[86turbodsl]

My house has afci only on outlets and only in each room with no lights. All lights are homerun to the light controller. No motors and they still nuisance tripped.

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