Are 4" Surface Boxes worth it?

[VietGnome]

Planning on a surface mount EMT setup.

I was originally planning on putting everything in 4x4 steel boxes. Right know the only circuits I'm planning for are 20A outlets along the wall, 15A switched outlets for lights, 15A outlets for garage door openers.

Unsure if I'll be running a ground or just using the EMT itself, but regardless max any EMT right now will see is 4 conductors, and 1 or 2 grounding conductors of 12 solid.

A single box with a duplex cover runs about $7.30 all in.

If I want a 4x4 with a normal raised 1 gang mud sill, I need to order the sill on amazon, all in I'm looking about $19.10

If the most a box will see is 1 circuit on 12AWG, and 2-3 wires passing through, is the extra price worth it? It's $190 for 2" boxes, and $500 for the 4x4.

 

[Shiftless]

Ever try to plug in 2 wall warts into a single duplex receptacle? You might need to upgrade to double duplex in the future. You might want to add a switch in one of the boxes. Did anyone besides me consider adding a switch to be able to easily deenergize their garage door opener when you leave on a trip?

 

[mm08822]

A ground wire in emt is not needed. When running 15 and/or 20a circuits in the same conduit only 1 #12 ground would be needed, if you to run a ground at all. I wouldn't waste the conduit fill or $.


Drawn 4" sq boxes with raised covers are all that is needed when surface mounted. (Not sure what a mud sill is. Mud ring?)

Check box fill. A few deep 4" sq boxes may be prudent.

ETA:
If by 2" boxes you mean, a handi-box, stay away from those unless it is the last box in a run. Even then, do yourself a favor and don't bother with them.

Just to clear up regional trade jargon and/or lack of knowing it, you may want to post pics of various hardware you are contemplating.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

This is what I would always use and they are readily available.……. They can be had with 1/2” and 3/4” knock outs.

 

[Cc_windsurfer]

This is what I would always use and they are readily available.……. They can be had with 1/2” and 3/4” knock outs.

Life is easier if you use the deep version of those boxes.

 

[VietGnome]

Ever try to plug in 2 wall warts into a single duplex receptacle? You might need to upgrade to double duplex in the future. You might want to add a switch in one of the boxes. Did anyone besides me consider adding a switch to be able to easily deenergize their garage door opener when you leave on a trip?

That's fair. I do have a shitload of outlets every 5 or so feet on alternating circuits that I thought would mitigate that. But you do make a good point.

A ground wire in emt is not needed. When running 15 and/or 20a circuits in the same conduit only 1 #12 ground would be needed, if you to run a ground at all. I wouldn't waste the conduit fill or $.


Drawn 4" sq boxes with raised covers are all that is needed when surface mounted. (Not sure what a mud sill is. Mud ring?)

Check box fill. A few deep 4" sq boxes may be prudent.

ETA:
If by 2" boxes you mean, a handi-box, stay away from those unless it is the last box in a run. Even then, do yourself a favor and don't bother with them.

Just to clear up regional trade jargon and/or lack of knowing it, you may want to post pics of various hardware you are contemplating.

The mud sill is below, basically just a raised cover.
I can get this for about $8ea on amazon.


Or from HomeDepot I can get this for about $6, but it feels like it might be a weird fit/combo.


And these are the 2" boxes I was referencing:

 

[Bert_]

Find a better place to buy from.

A 4sq raised cover f/1 duplex cost me right at $2 wholesale. A 4sq 1 1/2" box with 1/2&3/4 ko's is $1.12

 

[VietGnome]

Find a better place to buy from.

A 4sq raised cover f/1 duplex cost me right at $2 wholesale. A 4sq 1 1/2" box with 1/2&3/4 ko's is $1.12

Fair enough, I'm away for work but when I'm home I'll have to go into the local supplier and ask their prices since I feel like trying to describe the various face plates over the phone will leave everyone confused.

T90 was cheaper at Home depot unfortunately, but the suppliers EMT was half the price, so here's hoping.

 

[Shiftless]

When I rewired my garage with exposed EMT, I went 100% with these boxes and covers. Junction boxes got blank covers of course. Even on the last box in a run I used them,

 

[VietGnome]

When I rewired my garage with exposed EMT, I went with these boxes and covers.

Those prices are ******.

Unfortunately I'm not in the US, but we do have Southwire stuff up north here, I'll have to hit up some local electrical distributors and see what they got. Fingers crossed

 

[Norcal]

That's fair. I do have a shitload of outlets every 5 or so feet on alternating circuits that I thought would mitigate that. But you do make a good point.


The mud sill is below, basically just a raised cover.
I can get this for about $8ea on amazon.


Or from HomeDepot I can get this for about $6, but it feels like it might be a weird fit/combo.


And these are the 2" boxes I was referencing:

Using handy boxes should get the user 20 lashes for each box & loss of the family jewels, there just is no excuse for using them, one reason is that they are too small, it's like trying to stuff 10 pounds of manure in a 5 pound bag. A four square box & raised device cover is much better.

 

[sparky 1971]

There is more to it than price. Practicality, user friendliness, and looks are at the top of the list. If it's going to be exposed, go the 4X4 route. The majority of the job can be done with standard depth boxes with a few places deep will be required. If the surface will be ribbed metal, Raco makes a box for that too, part # 232CS; it's a deep 4X4 box with the knockouts on two sides punched a little further out which allows 1/2 or 3/4 conduit to lay on the ribs with no offset required. Those are a little more money (my price is $4.32 each) but the time saved is worth it and much more.

 

[cybrdyke]

Yep. Dont forget about the offsets.
CD

 

[WildBill]

I went with the deep two gang/4x4 or whatever they are called and 3/4" emt everywhere and am very happy I did, more wiring room and I added another duplex outlet in most of them after using the shop for awhile. Plus a switch in one of them when I added a ceiling fan. And I used them in the ceiling with one switched/one always on duplex outlet in each for lights and whatever, those have been super handy.

 

[Firebrick43]

Hubbell-Raco 232 Square Box, 2-1/8" Depth, 1/2"-3/4" Knock-Out, 4" (Pack of 25), Outlet Boxes - Amazon Canada

Hubbell-Raco 232 Square Box, 2-1/8" Depth, 1/2"-3/4" Knock-Out, 4" (Pack of 25) in Outlet Boxes.

www.amazon.ca

Airmont Products (Pack of 4) 4"" Square Double Duplex Receptacle Electrical Box Cover, 1/2"" Raised, Exposed Work, Galvanized Steel, Crushed Corners, 2-Gang : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement

Airmont Products (Pack of 4) 4"" Square Double Duplex Receptacle Electrical Box Cover, 1/2"" Raised, Exposed Work, Galvanized Steel, Crushed Corners, 2-Gang : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement

www.amazon.ca

 

[mm08822]

Find a better place to buy from.

A 4sq raised cover f/1 duplex cost me right at $2 wholesale. A 4sq 1 1/2" box with 1/2&3/4 ko's is $1.12

I haven't seen $1.12 ish in many years for a drawn box. Lucky you!!

 

[Bert_]

I haven't seen $1.12 ish in many years for a drawn box. Lucky you!!

I usually buy the welded corner boxes.

 

[mm08822]

Using handy boxes should get the user 20 lashes for each box & loss of the family jewels, there just is no excuse for using them, one reason is that they are too small, it's like trying to stuff 10 pounds of manure in a 5 pound bag. A four square box & raised device cover is much better.

I was going to summon you for this but I knew you would eventually smell it.

 

[mm08822]

Yep. Dont forget about the offsets.
CD

I really hope you didn't mean these.....

 

[BillK]

My business is all done with emt and the shallow 4x4 boxes with the raised covers. They all have double duplex covers. I can post some pictures Monday.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

I really hope you didn't mean these.....

These are a "must have" for anyone who doesn’t know how to bend an offset OR is too lazy and cheap to learn how to bend conduit.

 

[Junkman]

Ever try to plug in 2 wall warts into a single duplex receptacle? You might need to upgrade to double duplex in the future. You might want to add a switch in one of the boxes. Did anyone besides me consider adding a switch to be able to easily deenergize their garage door opener when you leave on a trip?

I pulled the plug on the garage door operator, and that was the first time that I remembered that there was a battery backup inside the control. Had to remove the wire to the battery.

 

[nh_yota]

For surface mount I like 4 square deep boxes with quad covers. Gives you plenty of room for the wiring and allows you to put two duplex receptacles on two different circuits if you want.

 

[sparky 1971]

These are a "must have" for anyone who doesn’t know how to bend an offset OR is too lazy and cheap to learn how to bend conduit.

Forcing the conduit back to the wall without a box offset is better than one of those POS's. About the only time I use box offsets these days are service calls and I am matching existing. For everything new I use Caddy 812M's.

https://www.gordonelectricsupply.com/p/Caddy-812M-1-2-3-4-Clip-Caddy/15885?utm_source=google&utm_medium=pmax&utm_campaign=power-distribution&utm_content=&utm_term=&creative=&audience=customer-acquisition&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=22184120579&gbraid=0AAAAAD8Z3WEuCzawxJQNpSEgHETSwkxJb&gclid=CjwKCAjwntHPBhAaEiwA_Xp6Rvxt7bzZuxfQPlsAd_ofQzSFfaWdlRvImroY0n2hO7j8OFTM3Tc5thoC9TIQAvD_BwE

I love bending EMT, but loathe box offsets. I even have Kickers in both 1/2 and 3/4. I still hate them.

 

[rharman]

I am not an electrician so this may be a dumb question....

Wouldn't one of these be a huge timesaver for dealing with box offsets? Yeah, you'd need a 1/2" and a 3/4" but seems like they'd pay for themselves pretty quickly.

 

[bluedog225]

Following this thread of interest. I’ll be mounting some EMT and boxes myself soon.

Curious if you mount two boxes 1st, and then set the emt or do you string them along one at a time and kind of do it together.

Seems like there’s room on the connector to cut the emt after the boxes are set.

 

[drmarkr]

Ever try to plug in 2 wall warts into a single duplex receptacle? You might need to upgrade to double duplex in the future. You might want to add a switch in one of the boxes. Did anyone besides me consider adding a switch to be able to easily deenergize their garage door opener when you leave on a trip?

All three of my garage doors are on a single switch for exactly that reason.

 

[Bert_]

I am not an electrician so this may be a dumb question....

Wouldn't one of these be a huge timesaver for dealing with box offsets? Yeah, you'd need a 1/2" and a 3/4" but seems like they'd pay for themselves pretty quickly.

They have a place but it's just another thing to drag around also.

I've used them before when wiring a bigger shop. I don't bend any box offsets on the ceiling. Mostly just need box offsets for outlets and switches.

 

[dave*99]

Did anyone besides me consider adding a switch to be able to easily deenergize their garage door opener when you leave on a trip?

I have a man door with a big glass panel on the side of the garage. No need for the burglar to mess with the garage door opener.
That said, all my GDOs are on a separate breaker. But I’m not climbing up to remove the backup batteries.
The openers do have a lock button. It turns off the radio receiver.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

I am not an electrician so this may be a dumb question....

Wouldn't one of these be a huge timesaver for dealing with box offsets? Yeah, you'd need a 1/2" and a 3/4" but seems like they'd pay for themselves pretty quickly.

I worked with a rookie kid who could not bend conduit (Romex Jockey) so his parents purchased him a 1/2" Little Kicker and when he bought that out on the job he was so humiliated from the teasing he quit a month later……… We were willing to teach him but he was easily frustrated and was not willing to learn new things because all he wanted to do is to wire houses. We gave him a "trade name" and it was: Little Kicker.

BTW! I always worked with a "rough crowd"who would break ballz all day long.

 

[VietGnome]

I worked with a rookie kid who could not bend conduit (Romex Jockey) so his parents purchased him a 1/2" Little Kicker and when he bought that out on the job he was so humiliated from the teasing he quit a month later……… We were willing to teach him but he was easily frustrated and was not willing to learn new things because all he wanted to do is to wire houses. We gave him a "trade name" and it was: Little Kicker.

BTW! I always worked with a "rough crowd"who would break ballz all day long.

How hard is it to bend EMT? i.e. how much should I plan to **** up?

(Un)fortunately it's required to hire an electrician where I am, no matter what, but I want to be in a position to do as much myself, or assist as much as possible to cut costs. In a perfect world we can meet, plan it out, and I can run all the EMT and place boxes, then assist pulling wire, and they can do all the final connections. Just unsure how many sticks I should plan to destroy in the process.

 

[Shiftless]

Just unsure how many sticks I should plan to destroy in the process

(DIY electrician here)
From my own personal experience, I would say only… “more than one”. But I felt a great deal of personal accomplishment when I finished a complicated multi bend 10 foot run and lifted it into place and it fit just right.

 

[VietGnome]

(DIY electrician here)
From my own personal experience, I would say only… “more than one”. But I felt a great deal of personal accomplishment when I finished a complicated multi bend 10 foot run and lifted it into place and it fit just right.

If I've learned anything trying to plan out an entire DIY build myself it's;

"It's only money...right?"

 

[sparky 1971]

I am not an electrician so this may be a dumb question....

Wouldn't one of these be a huge timesaver for dealing with box offsets? Yeah, you'd need a 1/2" and a 3/4" but seems like they'd pay for themselves pretty quickly.

I have them for both 1/2 and 3/4 and they work well but really not worth the time unless there are going to be a bunch of box offsets needed.

 

[Crazyjake8493]

100% worth going with 4x4 boxes (even shallow) and raised covers. Handy boxes are a PITA. Give yourself room to work.

 

[Crazyjake8493]

Using handy boxes should get the user 20 lashes for each box & loss of the family jewels, there just is no excuse for using them, one reason is that they are too small, it's like trying to stuff 10 pounds of manure in a 5 pound bag. A four square box & raised device cover is much better.

I learned that lesson in my early 20s. Bought a couple handy boxes and slapped myself when I went to use them. Haven't bought one since.

 

[Crazyjake8493]

I am not an electrician so this may be a dumb question....

Wouldn't one of these be a huge timesaver for dealing with box offsets? Yeah, you'd need a 1/2" and a 3/4" but seems like they'd pay for themselves pretty quickly.

Not worth it unless you just have money you need to get rid of. Box offsets are the easiest bend and takes about 15 seconds to make one with a hand bender.

But this is GJ, so if your wallet is too full and you can't sit even, then go for it.

 

[strength_and_power]

I am not an electrician so this may be a dumb question....

Wouldn't one of these be a huge timesaver for dealing with box offsets? Yeah, you'd need a 1/2" and a 3/4" but seems like they'd pay for themselves pretty quickly.

For that price, I’d probably buy a few sticks, a conventional bender, watch some YouTube videos while sitting on the throne and go practice.

I saw a building the other day that the conduit runs bordered on artwork, evenly spaced on both the straights and turns. The guy who did it was obviously a pro I’d guess his drop pieces for the job would probably fit in one hand.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

How hard is it to bend EMT? i.e. how much should I plan to **** up?

(Un)fortunately it's required to hire an electrician where I am, no matter what, but I want to be in a position to do as much myself, or assist as much as possible to cut costs. In a perfect world we can meet, plan it out, and I can run all the EMT and place boxes, then assist pulling wire, and they can do all the final connections. Just unsure how many sticks I should plan to destroy in the process.

Buy a bundle of EMT (100’) along with a 1/2” bender and start bending because you will learn quickly….. You will also need a lever and tape measure so you can be accurate. Bending conduit is a skill so try different bends like Dog Legs, Saddles, 45’s, etc.

TIP! Don’t be a quitter…… Nobody likes a quitter!

 

[VietGnome]

Buy a bundle of EMT (100’) along with a 1/2” bender and start bending because you will learn quickly….. You will also need a lever and tape measure so you can be accurate. Bending conduit is a skill so try different bends like Dog Legs, Saddles, 45’s, etc.

TIP! Don’t be a quitter…… Nobody likes a quitter!

The one thing I'm looking forward to is once we get the building up, and watertight, I have nothing but time.

I'm hoping I can find an electrician that is cool with me running EMT and placing boxes, and I can just work at my own pace and do it how I want. I'm incredibly **** about cable management and the like so I'm sure with a case of beer, speaker and the stack of EMT I'll have a good time.