Are arc fault breakers required everywhere?

[Ross/Kzoo]

I found this online:

"All 120 volt / 15 or 20 amp branch circuits supplying outlets (includes both lighting outlets and receptacle outlets) in dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sun rooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by a listed arc fault circuit interrupter. This means that nearly every habitable space in new homes are required to have this protection."

At $43-50 a pop these aren't cheap. Is there some place in the home where this isn't required?

 

[walrus]

I found this online:

"All 120 volt / 15 or 20 amp branch circuits supplying outlets (includes both lighting outlets and receptacle outlets) in dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sun rooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by a listed arc fault circuit interrupter. This means that nearly every habitable space in new homes are required to have this protection."

At $43-50 a pop these aren't cheap. Is there some place in the home where this isn't required?

Bathrooms?

Not sure what you have is 2014 code but Kitchens are added in 2014.

Garages don't need AFCI either

 

[wyliesdiesels]

When was your house built?

NEC 2014 requires AFCIs in the whole house.

 

[Ross/Kzoo]

Being built now 2015.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Michigan is still NEC 2011

http://www.electricalcodecoalition.org/state-adoptions.aspx

 

[Ross/Kzoo]

OK, what does that mean for me? Is it just the bedrooms?

 

[BJ42LX]

How does arc fault and ground fault play together? Are they compatible or do you get one or the other?

Is it acceptable to install GFCI outlets on arc fault protected circuits?

Are there AFCI and GFCI breakers?

 

[A_Pmech]

I love the things.

Every time you turn on a vacuum cleaner the breaker has to be reset.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

OK, what does that mean for me? Is it just the bedrooms?

Yes IIRCC

How does arc fault and ground fault play together? Are they compatible or do you get one or the other?

Is it acceptable to install GFCI outlets on arc fault protected circuits?

Are there AFCI and GFCI breakers?

AFCI and GFCI are 2 different animals.

AFCIs are for arcing faults that can light something on fire. An example situation could be a frayed lamp cord sitting under a bed arcing. The arc is intermittent so the regular breaker doesnt trip.

GFCIs are for current leaking outside the circuit. An example would be a 2-wire metal tool with a hot wire touching the housing. Because theres no grounding, the regular breaker doesnt trip. The user touches the frame at the same time as grabbing or touching a grounded water pipe. Current flows from the tool through the user and into the water pipe back to the panel. The current isnt enough to trip the breaker but COULD BE high enough to kill the person.

As far as use, it depends on the circuit and area feeding.

There is combination devices that have both types of protection:

http://w3.usa.siemens.com/powerdist...eakers/pages/dual-function.aspx?ismobile=true

 

[toplessHO]

good thing FPE is outta business.........

 

[G_P]

I love the things.

Every time you turn on a vacuum cleaner the breaker has to be reset.

Or use power tools with arcing brushes. Pull the trigger on a drill and trip the breaker.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

good thing FPE is outta business.........

Other than being junk, why is that?

Or use power tools with arcing brushes. Pull the trigger on a drill and trip the breaker.

Just one of the reasons why theyre SNAKE OIL!

 

[aandpdan]

OK, what does that mean for me? Is it just the bedrooms?

Nope.

The 2011 NEC requirements are: NEC 210.12(A) Where Required. All 15A or 20A, 120V branch circuits in dwelling units supplying outlets in family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas must be protected by a listed AFCI device of the combination type.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Nope.

The 2011 NEC requirements are: NEC 210.12(A) Where Required. All 15A or 20A, 120V branch circuits in dwelling units supplying outlets in family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas must be protected by a listed AFCI device of the combination type.

Ok my bad. I must be confusing 2008 and 2011 NEC

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Other than being junk, why is that?



Just one of the reasons why theyre SNAKE OIL!

 

[Mustang51js]

Required anywhere your protecting the circuit without a gfci. If your state adopts the 2014 code then they will be required everywhere

 

[ddawg16]

I've ran every corded power tool I have (including miter saw and tile saw) on my AFCI's.....have yet to trip one.

But it did detect a broken wire.

 

[bgeery]

Or use power tools with arcing brushes. Pull the trigger on a drill and trip the breaker.

The peanut gallery on every electrical forum always bashes AFCI and GFCI.

Other than some first gen stuff, the CAFCI (and GFCI) breakers don't commonly nuisance trip. If they are tripping, they are doing their job. Your equipment is likely worn out, or defective. The last thing I would suspect would be a defective breaker.

I have CAFCI and GFCI on every single 15/20 Amp circuit in the house, and I've had one nuisance trip in the last 2 years. The worst I can say about them is they will trip sometimes when power is restored after an outage, but that is a design feature to protect their electronics, not a defect.

BTW, check eBay for the best prices (about half of retail)

 

[Horror Business]

Was the broken wire in the wall, or on a piece of equipment?

 

[Norcal]

The peanut gallery on every electrical forum always bashes GFCI and GFCI.

Other than some first gen stuff, the CAFCI (and GFCI) breakers don't commonly nuisance trip. If they are tripping, they are doing their job. Your equipment is likely worn out, or defective. The last thing I would suspect would be a defective breaker.

I have CAFCI and GFCI on every single 15/20 Amp circuit in the house, and I've had one nuisance trip in the last 2 years. The worst I can say about them is they will trip sometimes when power is restored after an outage, but that is a design feature to protect their electronics, not a defect.

BTW, check eBay for the best prices (about half of retail)

There is nothing wrong with GFCI's, AFCI's never did what they claim & the customers became the beta test, which is what I have issue with, the idea is good but the crooks behind it all should be shot for thievery, namely UL, NFPA, and the manufacturers, & others, it should have been much further developed before being required.


With Ebay, you have no assurance that the product is genuine, the product is costly enough that the ChiComs could be counterfeiting them. Remember the fake SQ D QO breakers? The ChiComs do supply most of the worlds counterfeit merchandise.

 

[Whitworth]

After I had a new home built in 2005, the first thing I did was replace those arc fault breakers and fling them in the trash.

 

[bgeery]

There is nothing wrong with GFCI's, AFCI's never did what they claim & the customers became the beta test, which is what I have issue with, the idea is good but the crooks behind it all should be shot for thievery, namely UL, NFPA, and the manufacturers, & others, it should have been much further developed before being required.

Youtube has test video of CAFCI breakers being demonstrated. They work as intended *now*, and stop potential fires, so it's pointless to rehash the problems of the first gen devices. First gen electronics always have bugs/hitches, but you don't find them until the devices are out in the real world, being used with real world equipment.

With Ebay, you have no assurance that the product is genuine, the product is costly enough that the ChiComs could be counterfeiting them. Remember the fake SQ D QO breakers? The ChiComs do supply most of the worlds counterfeit merchandise.

Sure, there is a risk, but there is enough info out there to detect the counterfeits now. Pay full retail if it makes you more comfortable.

 

[Mustang51js]

Did you know that if you touch the ground and neutral in a light with the switch off it still trips the breaker,not much of an arc there. Can't wait till the price comes down

 

[ddawg16]

After I had a new home built in 2005, the first thing I did was replace those arc fault breakers and fling them in the trash.

I'm guessing you stocked up on incandescent bulbs too?

 

[67carl]

I'm guessing you stocked up on incandescent bulbs too?

You, sir, owe me a new keyboard!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

After I had a new home built in 2005, the first thing I did was replace those arc fault breakers and fling them in the trash.

Shouldve sold 'em!

 

[woodzy]

This varies by inspector. I just built a house (finished in December 2014), and before I started I talked to the inspector. He said he would require AFCI on all bedroom circuits only. GFCI on bathroom, kitchen, laundry, garage, basement, and outside. Everything else could be regular circuit breakers. He did require GFCI on the lights over the tub shower but I think that is overkill.

Some other things you should talk to them before you start. Do they require tamper resistance outlets everywhere? A few years ago, I purchased a GFCI tamper resistance outlet, and it was almost impossible to plug something into it. I replaced it with a regular one and my wife was happier. The new house has 100% tamper resistance outlets (even though the inspector said he would not check them) but they must have perfected them since they work very well.

Also, when it comes to outside outlets, they now according to code require in-use covers. Some people claim that these turn in to wasp hotels but my inspector said he would not look very close at those as most people don’t really like them.

 

[Ross/Kzoo]

This varies by inspector. I just built a house (finished in December 2014), and before I started I talked to the inspector. He said he would require AFCI on all bedroom circuits only. GFCI on bathroom, kitchen, laundry, garage, basement, and outside. Everything else could be regular circuit breakers. He did require GFCI on the lights over the tub shower but I think that is overkill.

Some other things you should talk to them before you start. Do they require tamper resistance outlets everywhere? A few years ago, I purchased a GFCI tamper resistance outlet, and it was almost impossible to plug something into it. I replaced it with a regular one and my wife was happier. The new house has 100% tamper resistance outlets (even though the inspector said he would not check them) but they must have perfected them since they work very well.

Also, when it comes to outside outlets, they now according to code require in-use covers. Some people claim that these turn in to wasp hotels but my inspector said he would not look very close at those as most people don’t really like them.

Thanks, that helps a lot.

 

[JACDes]

Check with your building dept.

 

[Beemer533]

... The worst I can say about them is they will trip sometimes when power is restored after an outage, but that is a design feature to protect their electronics, not a defect.

....

Which is an awesome feature when hooked up to a fridge or freezer or other "critical" service like an alarm panel, phone system, etc...

 

[Mustang51js]

After I had a new home built in 2005, the first thing I did was replace those arc fault breakers and fling them in the trash.

I'm telling the inspector

 

[Whitworth]

I'm telling the inspector

You're from New Jersey........figures.

 

[bgeery]

Which is an awesome feature when hooked up to a fridge or freezer or other "critical" service like an alarm panel, phone system, etc...

If you want to avoid CAFCI breakers potentially safety tripping, when power is resumed after an outage, I believe the solution is to install a whole house surge suppressor at the main panel. At least that seems to have cured the issue for my house.

 

[Cmreschke]

Fyi, the state of Michigan residential code supercedes the nec. You will be working from the latest adopted addition of the mrc which I think is either 2005 or 2008. It is a little more relaxed with afcis. As it is I believe only bedrooms.
As far as getting rid of them, why. You paid 40 to 50 dollars for something to just throw away? Makes cents to me. They work. If you get them online, make sure that they are combination afcis, the will protect against arc faults and over current, not ground fault.
As a point of thinking I'd like to see them make panels with afcis mains, it would solve all problems and keep things relatively less expensive that way.

 

[Ross/Kzoo]

I talked with the electrical inspector today and in Mi. AFCI's are only needed in bedrooms and for smoke detectors unless the dwelling has more than 2 units.

 

[69gp]

When was your house built?

NEC 2014 requires AFCIs in the whole house.

MI uses the 2005 code.

http://www.jade1.com/jadecc/nec_code_adoption.php

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Fyi, the state of Michigan residential code supercedes the nec. You will be working from the latest adopted addition of the mrc which I think is either 2005 or 2008. It is a little more relaxed with afcis. As it is I believe only bedrooms.
As far as getting rid of them, why. You paid 40 to 50 dollars for something to just throw away? Makes cents to me. They work. If you get them online, make sure that they are combination afcis, the will protect against arc faults and over current, not ground fault.
As a point of thinking I'd like to see them make panels with afcis mains, it would solve all problems and keep things relatively less expensive that way.

According to several links Ive found MI is on NEC 2011

And that is NOT what a combination AFCI is. A combination AFCI detects both parrallel AND series arcing faults. Regular AFCIs ONLY detect parrallel faults.

An AFCI main? Yeah that would be a great idea. Have a fault on a branch circuit and loose power to the whole house! smh I think not! Just out of curiosity, how does that solve ALL problems? IMO, that would create more issues!!

MI uses the 2005 code.

http://www.jade1.com/jadecc/nec_code_adoption.php

Whoops! Better check your reference. It says 2011 for MI...

 

[C96]

I'd like to see them make panels with afcis mains, it would solve all problems.

What?... ...Like they don’t already cause enough grief, if the main breaker were AFCI, then the entire house loses power with a simple nuisance trip.

Don’t see how that solves any problems?

 

[C96]

Last edited by wyliesdiesels; Today at 05:42 PM.

An AFCI main? Yeah that would be a great idea. Have a fault on a branch circuit and loose power to the whole house! smh I think not! Just out of curiosity, how does that solve ALL problems? IMO, that would create more issues!!

Way to go wyliesdiesels, change/edit your post so now mine looks like I simply copied yours…

Today, 04:37 PM

What?... ...Like they don’t already cause enough grief, if the main breaker were AFCI, then the entire house loses power with a simple nuisance trip.

Don’t see how that solves any problems?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Way to go wyliesdiesels, change/edit your post so now mine looks like I simply copied yours…

Honestly, that wasnt my intention. I was at work on break when i started editing my post before u posted your comment. Break was over and I didnt have time to finish and hit save. Came back after work and finished it!