Are permits typically more relaxed for pole barns?

[mike758]

I know this question is like a needle in a haystack because none of you likely live in my township, but I’m just trying to see if someone’s had a relatable experience. I’m looking to build a garage using pole barn construction, and in my township anything over 200 sq ft needs a permit. Trouble is, I pulled up a building permit application and it says you need plans from a certified architect or engineer. If I hire one of those to make my plans that would probably be half my cost.

Anyway, I’m sure a building permit applies for houses, so I was wondering if townships maybe have a different, more relaxed procedure for pole barns. I could ask the township, but if I need to hire an engineer or architect, I’ll proavbly just build without permits, so I’m trying not to draw attention to myself. I live in a rural area btw.

 

[larry_g]

On my building I bought a materials kit from the local pole barn builder/lumberyard. They provided the plans, stamped and the truss plans, stamped as part of the kit. I also paid them an extra $400 for the permit with a county approved set of plans. So if you go with a standard building, the plans are probably already out there.

Just my experience.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[bob15]

Why should it be more relaxed? People, property, animals all could be in there at sometime or another. Does being a pole barn magically mean that it won't collapse due to snow or wind load or electrocution won't happen because it is a pole barn?

 

[mike758]

Why should it be more relaxed? People, property, animals all could be in there at sometime or another. Does being a pole barn magically mean that it won't collapse due to snow or wind load or electrocution won't happen because it is a pole barn?

No, but it’s a much more simple building. I can draw up my own plans, or even maybe buy plans off the internet. I don’t see why I would be required to pay $100 an hour to have someone make plans I can make myself

 

[Pechinger]

mine was a bit more "relaxed", to a degree. I had asked the inspector if I was able to draw my own plans (no engineer) he said it was fine. A couple months later when I actually got around to drawing the plans and applying for a permit, a different inspector told me a needed an engineer. I had a paper trail showing the other guy said no engineer was required and he said it was fine.

However, I paid $500 for my permit as I am not a farmer. My neighbor, who is a farmer, would have paid $20 for the same building.

 

[Stuart in MN]

As mentioned, many pole barn suppliers can provide stamped plans. Assuming you're going to hire out the construction of the shell and will be talking to prospective pole barn contractors, ask them about it.

 

[chaosracing]

Mike, since we are both from PA, I may be able to help. But it also goes by municipality, so the best information would be for you to check with your codes officer, inspector, or municipal secretary.
In my township and surrounding townships, if its under 1000 sq ft, we only need a zoning permit and no inspections (unless you are running electric and water right way) Anything over 1000 sq ft requires a traditional building permit and traditional inspections even though its a pole building. It also means property taxes goes up as well.

I just had mine built, 988 sq ft, zoning permit. Electric will be run later so no permit needed or inspections.

 

[Fordman7795]

My township was strict on the plans but very lax once we broke ground. They never once came to look at it after I paid the building permit.

 

[matt_i]

Despite the pain you don't really want to add square footage outside of the permit process in my opinion.

Going around can complicate and slow a real estate transaction later and be costly in time and funds you don't have, if a non-permitted structure is found via due diligence in the real estate process.

You can pickup a cease-and-desist order, which could require teardown or going thru the permitting process after the fact with various additional fines and penalties along the way.

Keep in mind the base function of building permits is to assure that the locality is property-taxing you appropriately. They are serious about their tax dollars and when you are adding square footage, they want to be included.

One thing I've found in a couple localities, is that a structure built on your own property for your own use is subject to slightly less scrutiny than one built as a public or shared space. [The general idea is that if one built a poor quality structure cutting corners the only person who would suffer is the actual owner] Best imo is to find out who is the lead or head of the department and speak to them. Other minions will give differing answers I have found, just like above. And the office employees who answer the phones know the least.

 

[cvairwerks]

No, but it’s a much more simple building. I can draw up my own plans, or even maybe buy plans off the internet. I don’t see why I would be required to pay $100 an hour to have someone make plans I can make myself

You are paying for the designer’s knowledge that a 4/12 sloped roof, with a 30’ freespan, built in an area that averages 135” of snow a year and sees 60 mph wind regularly, needs trusses with a 2x8 bottom chord and all other members to be 2x6’s and spaced on 4’ maximum centers to meet snow and wind loads where you are building. Also that your posts need to be on 8’ centers rather than 12’ or 16’. If one is not a structures guy, by the time you figure out the required info you need to do the calculations, he’s done, plans are complete and stamped and he is already on another project before you’ve crunched the first numbers. (Note: All numbers above are WAG’s, based on pure speculation of some randomized size info....

How much is your time worth in chasing all the necessary info and then doing the appropriate number crunching? For me, I know what my personal bill out rate is and a grand or two for structural plans is not a lot of hours that I can’t bill out.

 

[driz]

No, but it’s a much more simple building. I can draw up my own plans, or even maybe buy plans off the internet. I don’t see why I would be required to pay $100 an hour to have someone make plans I can make myself

Same here, it’s not considered an occupied dwelling which is always a good thing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[log man]

I just went thru the permit process a bit north of you in NY. My town needed the permit with some basic plans (layout on lot, setbacks, size of building, foundation depth, etc.) and wanted the truss design sheets which the lumber yard supplied to me as part of the truss purchase. Go see the code person for you town and see where the hot buttons are.

 

[jetnow1]

When I built my garage I just filled out the permit application listing what size lumber was being used where, but the town engineer wanted drawings showing what I was doing to
drain the waste water(roof runoff only). I figured out the amount of water from a 1 inch
of rain/hour and looked up how big a septic tank to handle that amount of water, drew some simple plans showing a pit that size filled with 2 inch stone, he accepted that.

 

[Hdonly0]

Where I live any out-building that is free standing and not attached to living space and less than 400 square feet floor area can be built by the property owner without a permit.

 

[zmotorsports]

I wouldn't say they are more or less relaxed on them around our area. Pole buildings are quite popular around our area and they fall under the same criteria as a stick built structure. When I went to get my building permit last year, which is also required on anything over 200 sq. feet, the city needed engineered plans, no exceptions. Our subdivision specifically states "no pole buildings" so the city noticed that when I gave the address and then I had to also have the accessory building designed per the correct CC&R's for that particular neighborhood/subdivision. I have my contractor have the plans drawn up and although they weren't cheap, I felt like they were reasonable and they did a good job on the plans, they were no where near half my cost, that's for sure.

Like others have said, many pole building contractors have engineered plans that I'm sure you can purchase and some will even come with if you buy in "kit" form.

 

[b-boy]

I know this question is like a needle in a haystack because none of you likely live in my township, but I’m just trying to see if someone’s had a relatable experience. I’m looking to build a garage using pole barn construction, and in my township anything over 200 sq ft needs a permit. Trouble is, I pulled up a building permit application and it says you need plans from a certified architect or engineer. If I hire one of those to make my plans that would probably be half my cost.

Anyway, I’m sure a building permit applies for houses, so I was wondering if townships maybe have a different, more relaxed procedure for pole barns. I could ask the township, but if I need to hire an engineer or architect, I’ll proavbly just build without permits, so I’m trying not to draw attention to myself. I live in a rural area btw.

My town in Western NY required a stamped plan for anything over 1000 sq ft. Under that, they just needed a drawing. The permit ran $100.

I hired an Amish crew to build mine. Fortunately, the head of the group had run into this before. He was able to get me drawings from an architect, but it cost me an extra $700. Kind of ridiculous IMHO.

My biggest hurdle was getting my town to approve my use of Amish contractors. They originally said no due to lack of proper insurance. They relented after I said I'd list myself as the contractor and use them as subcontractors. It still took 2 months to get it approved.

 

[chaosracing]

Mike, for a zoning permit there is no need for any plans, except a plot plan showing location of existing structures, your property lines and where you plan on placing the building. I just used the google maps satellite image, drew on the property line that my building was going to be next to and where the building was going to be placed. Zero problems with that.

If you plan on doing this yourself and are required to get some kind of engineered plans (I highly doubt you would) you can go to a pole building supplier and get them to draw up a set of plans and get a stamp put on, but I have never heard of anyone needing engineered plans for a simple pole building here in PA. But again, that goes by municipality. Like I said before, I would contact your municipality first and see what they require. You can get all kinds of answers on here, but what really matters is what your local government requires.

 

[joe_padavano]

It all depends on where you live. I'm in an agricultural district in Northern VA. I own a farm. "Agricultural use" buildings don't require a permit in this jurisdiction, just a zoning review. My pole barns are, by definition, "agricultural use".

 

[kbs2244]

It may depend on your zoning.
If you are in an "AG" area and build a "Barn" (not a garage) you may be able to do what you want.

But you cannot hide the fact that it was built.
They do compares of Google Earth PICs that it will show up on.

 

[driz]

On my building I bought a materials kit from the local pole barn builder/lumberyard. They provided the plans, stamped and the truss plans, stamped as part of the kit. I also paid them an extra $400 for the permit with a county approved set of plans. So if you go with a standard building, the plans are probably already out there.

Just my experience.

lg
no neat sig line

Yup! Whether it’s a kit or you are just buying all the materials from them some yards have a guy there who will whip up your plans free . That may save you a lot of headache figuring things Out yourself. Ask

 

[larry_g]

Are permits typically more relaxed for pole barns?

Above I said that plans came with the permit. These plans had been submitted for the permit and came back with specific parts highlighted and notes in red ink. I remember the inspector specifically checking the highlighted parts on the print to see if we did it as specified. Two items I remember were a nailing schedule on some supports and bolts through the trusses to the poles. So I would not say that things were more relaxed, just fewer things that are critical and need checking. Joints and fasteners are just as important on a cheap shed as they are on any other building.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[Buickspec6231]

I have a pole barn going up next month. The permit process was no more relaxed than any other building. However, once the codes guy saw who I had building my barn for me, he was much more accommodating.

 

[6768rogues]

When I did code enforcement, the applicant had to provide enough information so that I could determine that it complied with the code. For a house, under 1500 square feet it was up to the code official to decide if stamped plans were necessary. Over that size for a house, and stamped plans were required. For pole barns, it was at the discretion of the code official. If it was a simple pole building, I would ask for home made sketches showing the location on the lot with dimensions from sidelines and other buildings, floor plans, wall sections, roof truss engineering information, connection details and anything else that I needed to determine code compliance, but not a stamped set of drawings. If the building was cantilevered off the side of a cliff, I would not touch it without stamped plans. Check with your code office, it sounds like they typically issue permits for houses and use that form for everything.

 

[Skiff Builder]

You are paying for the designer’s knowledge that a 4/12 sloped roof, with a 30’ freespan, built in an area that averages 135” of snow a year and sees 60 mph wind regularly, needs trusses with a 2x8 bottom chord and all other members to be 2x6’s and spaced on 4’ maximum centers to meet snow and wind loads where you are building. Also that your posts need to be on 8’ centers rather than 12’ or 16’. If one is not a structures guy, by the time you figure out the required info you need to do the calculations, he’s done, plans are complete and stamped and he is already on another project before you’ve crunched the first numbers. (Note: All numbers above are WAG’s, based on pure speculation of some randomized size info....

How much is your time worth in chasing all the necessary info and then doing the appropriate number crunching? For me, I know what my personal bill out rate is and a grand or two for structural plans is not a lot of hours that I can’t bill out.

I just copied the layout/materials/construction exactly like pole barn structures the township has had built ,that were close to what I wanted. Took 30 mins on their site and 2 hours in the truck in the building dept parking lot. I'm sure they had it engineered,right? Told them what I did when submitting plans,town was fine with it. What else could they say?
Taking a little time to draw plans yourself helps you build it first in your head- a good thing for those that do their own work.
Why pay an engineer to do what's been done many times in your local area?

 

[Skiff Builder]

I know this question is like a needle in a haystack because none of you likely live in my township, but I’m just trying to see if someone’s had a relatable experience. I’m looking to build a garage using pole barn construction, and in my township anything over 200 sq ft needs a permit. Trouble is, I pulled up a building permit application and it says you need plans from a certified architect or engineer. If I hire one of those to make my plans that would probably be half my cost.

Anyway, I’m sure a building permit applies for houses, so I was wondering if townships maybe have a different, more relaxed procedure for pole barns. I could ask the township, but if I need to hire an engineer or architect, I’ll proavbly just build without permits, so I’m trying not to draw attention to myself. I live in a rural area btw.

Mike,
Can you call it a shed rather than a garage? I was able to call my shop build a shed, though it's very garage like, w/100amp,insulated,heat.etc. Took some talking and explaining at the town but not bad, made things a little easier all around.

 

[joe_padavano]

They do compares of Google Earth PICs that it will show up on.

In my jurisdiction, anyway, this is more about being sure they can increase your property valuation for tax revenue purposes than anything else...

 

[wcp0611]

When I built my 40x60 pole barn as my main shop, the inspector was super apathetic towards its building. Mind you, I built it right and it will be here longer than me, but the inspector gave me my permit without any plans or anything. Just asked me what my projected expense overall was and it was 3 or 5 percent of that dollar amount for the permit. Only time I saw him over the eight months that it took to hand build it was at the end when he came out to check my pad height as there was a flood plane near and county engineering made me build it up about three feet more than I had planned. That was passed off a Word doc my surveyor emailed me that looked as nonlegit as possible. I paid 450.00 for a survey and that email with his signature at the bottom. Inspector didn't blink at it and okayed it. I asked him when he needed to come back out and check the building as I wasn't sure of the process as I had never pulled a permit before. He said just build the thing fully and he'd come out in the end and inspect it. I asked about incremental visits and he said it wasn't necessary to him and that if the building is built right and engineered right and falls on me one of these days, that's on me and my work not on him. He wasn't a smartass about it, just one of those Ron Swanson guys that works for county government but doesn't appreciate big brother. Sure enough, my wife said he came out one day after it was built and I was at work and got out of his truck, walked over to the first post he came to and stapled a green pass tag on it and got back in and drove off. She said he was there for may two mins. He didn't look at anything.

Electrical was a different story and they took a bit of work to please. Not because I didn't anything wrong, but because the guy I was talking to on the phone had made deals with me as far as how much I could accomplish before they needed to inspect me but the field guy that came and inspected was unaware of all of this and failed me twice. Few phone calls later and they spoke to each other and passed me over the phone.

 

[b-boy]

In my jurisdiction, anyway, this is more about being sure they can increase your property valuation for tax revenue purposes than anything else...

Yup. I finished my pole barn in November, and my house was magically re-assessed the following March. I'm sure that was a total coincidence.

 

[ddawg16]

I have a regular 2-story garage. I drew my own plans.....but I had to have a wet stamped engineering dwg for the load calcs. If it had been a simple 1-story garage, a sketch on a napkin would have been fine.

I'm sure a pole barn gets no 'relaxed' love when it comes to inspections.

 

[Mikeske]

In the county I live in I had a pole building built 9 years ago and the permitting process required stamped plans. Since I had a contractor doing the build for me I had them handle the entire process. Since I was working 10 hour days then I wanted the process to go as smooth as possible and I had little time to do any work on the building myself I basically wanted a turnkey as possible. The entire building was passed with no issue with the electrical being handled at a later date. All that was done on the electrical was a rough in for the 100 amp box. I later had the electrical done as my state has separate permitting for electrical that is not county involved.