ritestuff
Well-known member
If you're using the tools to make a living, I think the better comparison is "******* Model" VS "Ugly Fat Chick". Both are capable of performing well, but.......................................
Are snap on sockets worth the money?
- Thread starter schmoldty
- Start date
sberry
Banned
I have 20% of the sockets I own on a service cart I use 99% of the time. The ones that sit can just as well ne 30 cents or a dollar as 30 or 30. I have 100 wrenches I use, when I get it all together 150$ or so, some USA for a buck in the bunch too but they all are worthy and some have nice features I reach for good reason over another. Some old Cmans, very fine on the box, got some cheap China almost identical also which I really value for their use over their cash equity and prize them that they are not a liability, way past depreciated and often multiply themselves at some incidents.
Changed out a starter on a diesel truck the other day with under 5$ in tools. Bet I could have walked in to a HF with a 5$ bill and done it.
Changed out a starter on a diesel truck the other day with under 5$ in tools. Bet I could have walked in to a HF with a 5$ bill and done it.
sberry
Banned
No one runs off with your HF tools,,,,,,,,,,,,,
kctyphoon
Banned
Here's the question you ask yourself - will your spent money do anything more for you?? Will it really???
Snap on doesn't give half off discounts out of the kindness of their hearts. It's a tactic to get people hooked while their young. It's basically the same thing cigarette companies would do years ago. At half off they are still making a profit, and it's in hopes they snag another life long customer, or at they very least make the offer so attractive that it convinces young people that it's a good "investment" to take out the extra money in student loans - and so many people do it that they make their money back in quantity, while receiveing free advertisement from the schools pushing their product. They do this knowing many of these kids in school won't become a career mechanic, so better to make SOME money off MORE people, rather then none at all..
THIS - is Snap On's target market in schools... ------>
Snap on doesn't give half off discounts out of the kindness of their hearts. It's a tactic to get people hooked while their young. It's basically the same thing cigarette companies would do years ago. At half off they are still making a profit, and it's in hopes they snag another life long customer, or at they very least make the offer so attractive that it convinces young people that it's a good "investment" to take out the extra money in student loans - and so many people do it that they make their money back in quantity, while receiveing free advertisement from the schools pushing their product. They do this knowing many of these kids in school won't become a career mechanic, so better to make SOME money off MORE people, rather then none at all..
THIS - is Snap On's target market in schools... ------>
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camd64
Well-known member
As far as most of the sockets go I would say no. Certain sockets I believe are worth it like 1/4" swivels. Your basic chrome shallow or deep 6pt. sockets...no. Impact standard shallow or deeps...no. Do I think they are stronger and have tighter tolerances....yes. Would it make any difference working day after day with them....I haven't seen it yet, and I have been at this going on 18 years now. I have just about every well known brand of sockets out there and I really have not had any significant issues with any one of them. I like the shallow broaching on the SO deeps but other brands do this as well and for much less.
A piece of advice I got early on about buying off the trucks was to make a list of what you actually need - get on the truck and buy just what is on your list, then........ GET THE F@C% OFF THE TRUCK!!!
A piece of advice I got early on about buying off the trucks was to make a list of what you actually need - get on the truck and buy just what is on your list, then........ GET THE F@C% OFF THE TRUCK!!!
Snap On sockets have superior broaches, they are thin, and very hard. They are probably the world's best socket. Their superiority manifests in fasteners removed without drama- they go on easy, fit tightly, and actually require less energy to torque (this is complicated, but I can explain).
If you make your living with sockets, you'd be stupid not to have them. If you don't make your living with them, you are stupid if you do have them (joking).
At half off, the best sockets in the world might be $30-50 more than a mediocre competitor. Most people pay 3x that to watch commercials and **** on their Comcast cable. So put it into perspective the talk about how they are unaffordable. If they get you out of one jam, they paid for themselves.
If you make your living with sockets, you'd be stupid not to have them. If you don't make your living with them, you are stupid if you do have them (joking).
At half off, the best sockets in the world might be $30-50 more than a mediocre competitor. Most people pay 3x that to watch commercials and **** on their Comcast cable. So put it into perspective the talk about how they are unaffordable. If they get you out of one jam, they paid for themselves.
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Zeeman
Well-known member
To me, no. I have a part time job in a motorcycle dealership, and I see the tecs with all their expensive tools. They are fine, but don't make them better mechanics for the most part. The guy with his original Craftsman stuff is one of the best I've seen as a mechanic. He does have some tool truck tools, but not all of his are off the truck. If you like very nice, new tools that will last a long time, or be warrantied, go for the Snap-On. Otherwise, stick with what you have.
derosa
Well-known member
I don't think any tool is worth it if you have one already that's good enough and need to spend money on tools you don't have. Unless you have cash to blow. I only had a mishmash of ratchets and a spattering of wrenches. Spending money on both and getting better quality was more sensible then spending the same money on sockets when I had a full range of decent USA craftsman. Once more needed tools are filled in then splurging can make sense. As others have mentioned getting ranges of other socket types; deep, shallow etc is a better way to go if this is a career move so you have a wider range to draw from.
I'd love to hear THAT explanation. Are you're claiming that other brands of sockets are so elastic that you put significant torque into bending them before the fastener budges? Aside from that, the torque required on the fastener is purely a matter of the interface between the fastener and the part and/or nut—static friction, corrosion, and the tension on the fastener.
There are no magic SnapOn particles flowing through the metal of the fastener to the threads. The machining may be better, the fit less likely to strip the fastener, but the torque required to turn the fastener is the same.
Unless, of course, Snap On is the rightful heir to King Arthur:
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Soooo, what have we learned after 50 posts?
In summary, that questions like these are pretty much useless. No one can answer this for you.
They're worth it to AdamC obviously, but to many others not so much. Only you can decide for yourself...
In summary, that questions like these are pretty much useless. No one can answer this for you.
They're worth it to AdamC obviously, but to many others not so much. Only you can decide for yourself...
tonyciambrone
Well-known member
If you have to ask, hell no.
In general, no.
In general, no.
B_Bimmer
Well-known member
Go ahead and get some 1/4" semi-deep sockets to try them, then decide for yourself. If you're actually using them regularly, over a lifetime the price difference is nothing. Otherwise lots of good advise, don't borrow for them, don't buy the gimmicky ****, etc. The student excellence program is a fantastic opportunity to get great tools new for the price of used.
I'd love to hear THAT explanation. Are you're claiming that other brands of sockets are so elastic that you put significant torque into bending them before the fastener budges? Aside from that, the torque required on the fastener is purely a matter of the interface between the fastener and the part and/or nut—static friction, corrosion, and the tension on the fastener.
There are no magic SnapOn particles flowing through the metal of the fastener to the threads. The machining may be better, the fit less likely to strip the fastener, but the torque required to turn the fastener is the same.
Unless, of course, Snap On is the rightful heir to King Arthur:
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you got the right idea. If you do a search, you will find that Snap On sockets hit closer to the corners than other brands. You will also find that the contact patch is super thin. That means less force is applied to the nut for a given torque. That's less force to deform the socket elastically. Ditto the steel is harder, the extensions are also harder and wind less. Difference in the force you apply to the ratchet handle could be significant.
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Please do. I am scratching my head and trying to figure out what I missed during my engineering classes that could explain this.
I'll tell you what you missed, the Koolaid stand on your way to class.
I own many brands, Snap-On included, and my own unbiased opinion is that they're cosmetically nice but otherwise nothing special. Buy and use what you want. I will say that you wont be flipping them for any profit though so put that idea right out and likewise socket set buy 1 get 1 is one of their most common promos for everyone. SEP not required.
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Empty Pockets
Well-known member
Whatever you don't go into debt, so that most of your paycheck goes to pay the Snappy driver.
The tools are really good, but expensive. Keep using your CM stuff, if something breaks, swap it out at sears (while they are still around), make that asian replacement part of your home set. Replace tools with SO as needed
I have an assortment of SO, Mac, Wright, SK and others. All work well, and the nut or bolt doesn't care about the name on your tools
The tools are really good, but expensive. Keep using your CM stuff, if something breaks, swap it out at sears (while they are still around), make that asian replacement part of your home set. Replace tools with SO as needed
I have an assortment of SO, Mac, Wright, SK and others. All work well, and the nut or bolt doesn't care about the name on your tools
md21722
Well-known member
About 15 years ago I was trying to remove the crank bolt off my Mercedes OM603 diesel with a Craftsman 27 mm socket. It kept coming off and my knuckles looked like it. I told my pro mechanic buddy who wrenches on Mercedes for a living and he said try mine. A Snap On 27mm. It was a night and day difference. Snap On sockets just fit better. I don't care what anyone says. Just last night I was putting in ring bear bolts in a Dana 44 with an Eaton E-locker. There was a SMALL gap between the shoulder of the locker & the ring gear bolts. Guess which ones fit? It wasn't the Craftsman. Snap On's hard line tools are the best I've used.
People here rave about Sunex impacts, sure they're cheap. The Snap On's will cost you thousands. They are made thicker, and in some cases that's a problem. I've never talked to a pro that didn't have at least one story about breaking a Sunex. But you might try Sunex first for impacts.
And the ones that get tired of the Snap On prices, try something else, and the next time I talk to them, they have bought more Snap On stuff.
A spark plug puller from Auto Zone costs $10. One from Snap On that is twice as beefy costs $20. If you bought the Auto Zone one first, you just paid $30 for a $20 tool because the first one was useless.
As for wrenches, I've talked to some guys who like the MAC Knuckle Savers. They get better pricing and service from their MAC man and it works for them. I use Snap On wrenches for historical reasons. You really can't beat a Snap On wrench. I always hated the Craftsman raised bar wrenches. If you have sausage sized fingers it may not matter, but even then I'd look to a truck brand over Craftsman if you're using them every day.
You can buy 9 piece spark plug socket set from MAC for something like $140. It looks just like the PROTO one. One Snap On spark plug socket may cost $50 if it's magnetic.
At some point you upgrade as you feel necessary.
I use my Craftsman 12 point sockets for making tools, grinding off the sides as needed, beating on them with hammers, and stuff like that.
If you're getting 50% off on a student discount, I'd take advantage of it. Their sockets are made out of the best steel I've seen in a socket. Their wrenches too. But don't get 100% sucked into the Snap On brand. Any pro will have stuff from a bunch of different tool companies.
People here rave about Sunex impacts, sure they're cheap. The Snap On's will cost you thousands. They are made thicker, and in some cases that's a problem. I've never talked to a pro that didn't have at least one story about breaking a Sunex. But you might try Sunex first for impacts.
And the ones that get tired of the Snap On prices, try something else, and the next time I talk to them, they have bought more Snap On stuff.
A spark plug puller from Auto Zone costs $10. One from Snap On that is twice as beefy costs $20. If you bought the Auto Zone one first, you just paid $30 for a $20 tool because the first one was useless.
As for wrenches, I've talked to some guys who like the MAC Knuckle Savers. They get better pricing and service from their MAC man and it works for them. I use Snap On wrenches for historical reasons. You really can't beat a Snap On wrench. I always hated the Craftsman raised bar wrenches. If you have sausage sized fingers it may not matter, but even then I'd look to a truck brand over Craftsman if you're using them every day.
You can buy 9 piece spark plug socket set from MAC for something like $140. It looks just like the PROTO one. One Snap On spark plug socket may cost $50 if it's magnetic.
At some point you upgrade as you feel necessary.
I use my Craftsman 12 point sockets for making tools, grinding off the sides as needed, beating on them with hammers, and stuff like that.
If you're getting 50% off on a student discount, I'd take advantage of it. Their sockets are made out of the best steel I've seen in a socket. Their wrenches too. But don't get 100% sucked into the Snap On brand. Any pro will have stuff from a bunch of different tool companies.
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Most engineers learn statics with a not often discussed assumption that components are infinitely rigid. This is Newtons 3rd law, which, like Newtonian fluid dynamics, is roughly true.
In reality, the effort we apply to a ratchet handle is reacted not only by the friction in the bolt threads and under the head, but also in elastically deforming every part, and creating heat. So in industry, most engineers use computer models called finite element models that take each elements stiffness into account. This is called a nonlinear analysis. I'd be very surprised if Snap On didn't have careful 3D computer models.
sberry
Banned
You think it matters?
ssdave
Banned
Where you notice this particularly is in long extension stacks. If you combine several extensions, not only do you have a lot of takeup from slop in the joints, but the windup can be significant before you get to full torque. But, it's hard to sell that idea here. I've been ridiculed for stating that before.
The best example of this is torque sticks. When you reach a certain torque, they twist as much as the impact turns, so that you essentially don't transfer any torque. Just absorb the energy in the extension without transferring any to the bolt. Every extension does this to some extent, whether it's noticeable or not is a question that probably varies by the cross section of the extension and the properties of the steel. I'm sure the same happens with sockets. But, I suspect the fit of the socket, both on the bolt and on the extension or ratchet has more to do with it than the steel properties.
In applying engineering principles, always remember the model assumptions. Failures happen when the actual real world item doesn't meet the ideal model assumptions.
I don't know everybody's situation. It can matter, sure. Good to have the discussion. I've heard from far too many mechanics who say their Snap On sockets worked where others would not.
Too many folks here think the measure of a socket i whether or not they brake it. These folks should probably stick to ratcheting impact sockets.
bmwpowere36m3
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2012
- Messages
- 1,125
Torque or required force doesn't change... regardless of how long or how many extensions. The amount of rotation or movement to reach that desired torque will though.
Impact is a different scenario, i.e., torque sticks.
Impact is a different scenario, i.e., torque sticks.
popparoach
Banned
everyone knows extensions rob torque but sockets alone dont twist.maybe your craftsman socket slippedoff because it was worn and the snap on was new?
and all that jazz about contact patch,are you saying 12 point sockets require a different amount of torque than 6 point sockets?
and all that jazz about contact patch,are you saying 12 point sockets require a different amount of torque than 6 point sockets?
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md21722
Well-known member
What exactly are you saying? I remember removing ball joints from 90 Dodge D250. There was a TON of slop on my 1/2" Craftsman breaker bar with a 5' pipe. I was talking to my alignment guys and they said we use 3/4" breaker bars because we find the 1/2" has too much deflection. We use a 7' pipe. The same can go with extensions. I never understood why some people use a bunch of 5" or 11" extensions when a single 36" would do just fine. I have 18, 24, and 36 extensions to cut down on the slop. The Snap On extensions are better than the SK stuff too...
byoungblood
Well-known member
There are so many other good sockets out there for less money, that I'd say no. Most everyone has off-corner engagement that works more or less the same these days, so sockets aren't one of those tools that you're getting something special by buying a truck brand.
If you're busting sockets, you're using the wrong tool or are abusing the tool. Only socket I've ever broken was a cheap-ish import, and I was probably abusing the tool.
If you're busting sockets, you're using the wrong tool or are abusing the tool. Only socket I've ever broken was a cheap-ish import, and I was probably abusing the tool.
I am familiar with these things. Even my tiny underfunded engineering department used FEA 20 years ago - I bet all mfg's of sockets have used it for decades.
Yes, there is energy loss due to socket flex and fastener head (nut) deformation during the tightening process. If we take the total energy required to turn a fastener the last 1/2 turn before it's tightened and compare it to this we are probably talking about fraction of one percent of the total energy spent by flex in socket and deformation of the nut.
Now you claim Snap On spends less energy than others, but it seems to me this is just speculation.
1) Snap on has flank drive very similar to countless other brands these days. To say their contact pattern is different is speculation.
2) Even if the contact pattern is somewhat unique to say it results in less flex /deformation is just another speculation.
3) You claim Snap on sockets are harder? Have you tested all the sockets out there?
4) Even if Snap On sockets are actually harder this alone has little to do with how much they flex or deform vs other possibly softer sockets. As long as no permanent deformation occurs.
5) As for extensions. They are all made from steel with very similar Young's modulus. This means they all flex in very similar manner until the weakest of them start to show permanent deformation. Hardness of the material has little to do with it. So even if Snap On extensions are harder than xyz extensions of same dimensions - the energy they eat up is the basically the same. What really matter here is; length and diameter.
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One of my buddies has the interesting job of dyno-testing marine engines. Think 1-6000 hp diesels in commercial vessels. He uses a strain gauge glued to the main shaft that goes to the propeller to measure how much it twists. Small wireless transmitter is connected to the strain gauge, strapped to the shaft, and sends the reading to his laptop. So by measuring the diameter of the shaft, and the how fast it rotates it's simple to calculate the power that goes through the shaft based on the reading from his gear.
He found it interesting that he could get accurate results without knowing the exact properties for the steel in the propeller shaft. The vessels he is testing are made all over the world and doubtful they all use the same steel. The reason is the governing factor for the twist of axle shaft is the diameter and so called Young's modulus of the material. And the latter very similar for broad range of steels. If I remember correctly a UK engineering firm discovered less than 1% difference in the Young's modulus of these shafts.
So for typical extension you don't have to know what brand it is, just measure the length and the diameter. They all behave the same in this regard up to a point.
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Flank drive makes contact away from the corners, not closer, and s supposed to give a larger contact area.
Larger contact area means less pressure, not less total force. You actually have a tiny bit more force applied at the fastener head for a given torque, since the radius is a bit smaller. The difference is only a few percent, though.
The total energy lost in the deformation is trivial—you'd have to bend it a significant amount, at least 5-10 degrees, before it would be noticeable. That won't happen without a long extension, in which case the socket is irrelevant. If the socket was actually flexing to any significant extent the chrome would flake off.
No, the force at the handle is just the torque at the threads divided by the radius from your hand on the ratchet to the center of rotation. The wrench, socket, and fastener are a rigid body system once the slack is taken out.
The only thing that makes a real difference is a longer handle, and that doesn't change the torque needed to break the threads loose, but just the amount of force needed to generate that torque.
Pancho_Vanilla
Member
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2016
- Messages
- 6
Thing is most Craftsman sockets are perfectly fine and should last your whole career. I only buy Snap-On if I know the tool is going to be used in very high torque applications or when I know I need a good high quality tool. Like the 12 point Allen I need for the head studs on the cars I work on. It's one of my 5 Snap On tools (yep only 5) I own. Everything else I'm perfectly fine with 'cheaper' tools. A Snap On 10mm isnt any faster than a Duralast 10mm. Stronger, yes. Faster, no.
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Nope. Think about how torque sticks work. Every tool in your box is a torque stick. Just a matter of how much.
Guys tons of tests have been done here and elsewhere. Deflections measured that prove differing EI between brands. Decades of practical wisdom, all waiting to be ignored.
trackwelder
Well-known member
I think they are as for many of the reasons given already. I have been wrenching for over thirty years and have used them all and Snap On has been the absolute most dependable tool ever in my hands. Do you plan on becoming a mechanic?
When I wrenched full time the best part was the service that my dealer gave. We would leave any items that needed service on a table in the corner and it was taken care of. Our dealer took care of everything from hardline tools to drill bits and taps.
When I wrenched full time the best part was the service that my dealer gave. We would leave any items that needed service on a table in the corner and it was taken care of. Our dealer took care of everything from hardline tools to drill bits and taps.
I have been swinging wrenches since the 70's. I work on stuff that is mostly unobtainium. Failure is not something that is ever pretty. Often the quality of your tools determines the quality of your output.
So if quality and I do not care if I damage something, then any old tool will work.
If details matter than buying good tools is one the of answers.
My dealer goes out of his way to make me happy the same way he has treated his other customers. He has retired people visiting him that have been buying from him for over 30 years.
So if quality and I do not care if I damage something, then any old tool will work.
If details matter than buying good tools is one the of answers.
My dealer goes out of his way to make me happy the same way he has treated his other customers. He has retired people visiting him that have been buying from him for over 30 years.
sberry
Banned
The actual torque is different with a different socket? We can agree that 20cfm of air for an impact that has 25 ft of 3/8 hose going to it has less resistance thru 25 ft of 3/4 black pipe before the regulator than 1/2. Would a human operator ever be able to tell.? How about this, takes 10# to tighten a nut with a Sears socket, how much does it take with a Snap? How about a 6 pt vs a 12? Different torque or energy required? What if it was a Williams vs a Sears?
sberry
Banned
I had a n8ut the other day where the snap wrench was perfect for the job, another 6 pt may have worked , not sure but it wasn't really anything to do with torque but fit on a special nut on an ATV that was in a buthole and tapered. I got a couple snap things and used them more back in the day before I had as extensive collection as I do, not so much anymore, don't have the rusted equipment and so many more options than when I could carry all my tools in a box.
Cant remember in the last year going to the bo0x expressly for the snaps but can recall several times using the 70's Cman with the fine end and good fit as well as a couple others.
I have made a good share of my living dealing with rusted, busted and stuck and no one beats up on me for removal. Its not really the "quality" of the tool so much as the right one or even the operator with the same one.
You could give the whole dam truck to some and they still cant neat me if I have a pairt of vise grips, a nail hammer and a draw pin.
That really isn't an exaggeration either, had a guy working with me this summer says I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't seen it, remove a broke pipe ****** with that, only tools I had for some reason in the field.
Cant remember in the last year going to the bo0x expressly for the snaps but can recall several times using the 70's Cman with the fine end and good fit as well as a couple others.
I have made a good share of my living dealing with rusted, busted and stuck and no one beats up on me for removal. Its not really the "quality" of the tool so much as the right one or even the operator with the same one.
You could give the whole dam truck to some and they still cant neat me if I have a pairt of vise grips, a nail hammer and a draw pin.
That really isn't an exaggeration either, had a guy working with me this summer says I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't seen it, remove a broke pipe ****** with that, only tools I had for some reason in the field.
sberry
Banned
I had a lost socket on a job a while back, I ordered an SK from the auto store, needed a short 6 pt 15 maybe, don't recall but on some turbo deal and it was about the only thing that fit, it was really a matter of fit and turn, I cant see how a socket cost 20 more would have helped the matter and don't know if I have expressly used it since.
Sent someone to remove a starter, they had a 5 gallon bucket of **** out before I knew it, I do it with a couple import combo wrenches, how much ultimate ******** it can do got nothing to do with it and is way beyond most operators, that and experience is subjective, I know guys been doing this and other things a long time and still not really very good at it.
A couple fine points on a calculator about torque and some theoretical ultimate strength doesn't mean squat and I would be done before the data entry.
Sent someone to remove a starter, they had a 5 gallon bucket of **** out before I knew it, I do it with a couple import combo wrenches, how much ultimate ******** it can do got nothing to do with it and is way beyond most operators, that and experience is subjective, I know guys been doing this and other things a long time and still not really very good at it.
A couple fine points on a calculator about torque and some theoretical ultimate strength doesn't mean squat and I would be done before the data entry.
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The torque will be the same.
Since both sockets flex and deform a tiny bit and return back to the original shape after the torque is released - this results in energy spent that didn't accomplish any useful work for the task.
The difference between two typical sockets is however so tiny it would take advanced measuring equipment to determine and dozens of test to get statistically meaningful results.
Could you tell the difference by the feel of hand - absolutely not!