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Are the neutral and ground technically interchangeable in 3-wire 220V outlet?

OSULemon

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When changing out the 3-wire 220v outlet in my new garage for a straight blade vs angled-blade 220V design, I noticed that the PO had wired the two hots correctly, but attached the neutral to the ground blade and left the ground wire floating in the box. The wires were connected to the subpanel as you would for a 4-wire 220V setup.

I know the recommended way is to use the ground wire instead of the neutral, but it got me thinking...does it really matter? Neutral goes to neutral bar, which goes to main breaker, and then bonds with the ground. Same difference, more or less?

Seems to me the danger lies with converting 3-wire to 4-wire outlets (ex: some dryers), and using one wire for both neutral and ground. This would give you a hot ground wire, potentially compromising the rest of your circuits?

However - in the case of my air compressor, welder, and space heater, all of them have 3-prong plugs. I should not be seeing any current through the grounding prong, so neutral as a ground should be OK. Am I on the right track here?

P.S: I plan to fix it anyway. I'm more curious than lazy.
 
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wyliesdiesels

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On a 4-wire subpanel using the neutral wire as an EGC can be an issue since its isolated.

On a circuit that originates in a main service panel it doesnt matter because neutral bar is bonded but it wouldnt be to code.
 

theoldwizard1

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"Technically", yes they are (now I will be strung up by all the professional electricians).

On the SV Seeker YouTube channel several people got a 120V "poke" because they built their own "break out box" converting a a 240V welding line cord (2 hots and a ground) into 2 sets of 120V outlets using the ground as the neutral.

They found out later that the ground conductor was "well connected" at the receptacle.
 

wyliesdiesels

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Its not a good idea to use an EGC as a neutral as u could have neutral return current on undesired metallic pathways which can create a shock potential.
 

Speedy Petey

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When changing out the 3-wire 220v outlet in my new garage for a straight blade vs angled-blade 220V design, I noticed that the PO had wired the two hots correctly, but attached the neutral to the ground blade and left the ground wire floating in the box. The wires were connected to the subpanel as you would for a 4-wire 220V setup.
First off, you cannot just go swapping "angled blade" for "straight blade" "220" receptacles without confirmation of what wires exist and what the amperage is.

There are 240V receptacles and 120/240V receptacles. Then there is the amperage. The configuration of the blades determines both. "220v" is not only an incorrect term, it is only half of the circuit description.



I know the recommended way is to use the ground wire instead of the neutral, but it got me thinking...does it really matter? Neutral goes to neutral bar, which goes to main breaker, and then bonds with the ground. Same difference, more or less?
Yes, it definitely matters, and NO, the recommended way is NOT to use the ground wire instead of the neutral. WHO Keeps perpetuating this dangerous MYTH???



Seems to me the danger lies with converting 3-wire to 4-wire outlets (ex: some dryers), and using one wire for both neutral and ground. This would give you a hot ground wire, potentially compromising the rest of your circuits?
THIS is why you use a neutral, NOT a ground, in "3-wire" dryer and range circuits. Because the neutral carries current, and any compromise in this neutral would create a dangerous situating if a bare ground were used.



However - in the case of my air compressor, welder, and space heater, all of them have 3-prong plugs. I should not be seeing any current through the grounding prong, so neutral as a ground should be OK. Am I on the right track here?
This is why it needs to be remembered that this whole 3-wire vs 4-wire "220V" thing ONLY applies to household cooking appliances and dryers, NOTHING else.
Outside those two categories is 240V (two hots and a ground) and 120/240V (two hots, neutral and ground)
 
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OSULemon

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The sub panel has its own grounding rod, and does not receive a ground from the main panel. I'm not sure if this makes a difference or not.

The neutral and ground bar also do not appear to be bonded in the sub panel.
 
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OSULemon

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First off, you cannot just go swapping "angled blade" for "straight blade" "220" receptacles without confirmation of what wires exist and what the amperage is.

There are 240V receptacles and 120/240V receptacles. Then there is the amperage. The configuration of the blades determines both. "220v" is not only an incorrect term, it is only half of the circuit description.



Yes, it definitely matters, and NO, the recommended way is NOT to use the ground wire instead of the neutral. WHO Keeps perpetuating this dangerous MYTH???



THIS is why you use a neutral, NOT a ground, in "3-wire" dryer and range circuits. Because the neutral carries current, and any compromise in this neutral would create a dangerous situating if a bare ground were used.



This is why it needs to be remembered that this whole 3-wire vs 4-wire "220V" thing ONLY applies to household cooking appliances and dryers, NOTHING else.
Outside those two categories is 240V (two hots and a ground) and 120/240V (two hots, neutral and ground)

My mistake with the terminology. I thought 220V and 240V were interchangeable terms.

The female and male outlets are the 50A 3-prong variety, as seen here:

http://www.menards.com/main/electri...469A8EAC7B9780498.tndm-prodapp6-external-mcom

The outlet it replaced was this variety:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-...gclid=CPP5v5-R98kCFYdcfgodC8UCWA&gclsrc=aw.ds

The compressor used draws ~15A, the space heater ~22A. Wire feeding the outlet is 8/3 Romex, protected by a 40A double pole breaker. I double checked all this before switching the outlets.
 

Speedy Petey

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The sub panel has its own grounding rod, and does not receive a ground from the main panel. I'm not sure if this makes a difference or not.

The neutral and ground bar also do not appear to be bonded in the sub panel.
Older sub-feed circuits to a DETACHED structure under certain circumstances allowed the ground to be bonded to the neutral, same as in a main panel. This is where the equipment ground came from. Newer feeders, and those within the same structure, require a dedicated equipment ground run with the feeder conductors.
A ground rod has nothing to do with this.
 

Doug Arthurs

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"Technically", yes they are (now I will be strung up by all the professional electricians).

On the SV Seeker YouTube channel several people got a 120V "poke" because they built their own "break out box" converting a a 240V welding line cord (2 hots and a ground) into 2 sets of 120V outlets using the ground as the neutral.

They found out later that the ground conductor was "well connected" at the receptacle.

I thought this was a great episode. I laughed like hell when they started getting snocked and new right away it was their rigged up boxes.
 
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OSULemon

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Older sub-feed circuits to a DETACHED structure under certain circumstances allowed the ground to be bonded to the neutral, same as in a main panel. This is where the equipment ground came from. Newer feeders, and those within the same structure, require a dedicated equipment ground run with the feeder conductors.
A ground rod has nothing to do with this.

Ah, so the following are OK:

1. 3-wire feeder from main panel, no ground, bonded neutral/ground in sub w/dedicated ground rod, ONLY IF old work, pre-2008(?)

http://www.nachi.org/forum/attachme...sub-panel-3-wire-feeder-detached-building.jpg

2. 4-wire feeder from main, ISOLATED neutral/ground in sub

http://www.diychatroom.com/attachme...el-main-panel-4-wire-feeder-same-building.jpg

On the right track yet?

In my case, I believe I'd need to connect the neutral and ground bars in the sub for it to be to code?
 
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OSULemon

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Disclaimer: I plan to have an electrician audit this; I'm under no delusions about my ability.
 

Ray_PA

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When changing out the 3-wire 220v outlet in my new garage for a straight blade vs angled-blade 220V design, I noticed that the PO had wired the two hots correctly, but attached the neutral to the ground blade and left the ground wire floating in the box. The wires were connected to the subpanel as you would for a 4-wire 220V setup.

I know the recommended way is to use the ground wire instead of the neutral, but it got me thinking...does it really matter? Neutral goes to neutral bar, which goes to main breaker, and then bonds with the ground. Same difference, more or less?

Seems to me the danger lies with converting 3-wire to 4-wire outlets (ex: some dryers), and using one wire for both neutral and ground. This would give you a hot ground wire, potentially compromising the rest of your circuits?

However - in the case of my air compressor, welder, and space heater, all of them have 3-prong plugs. I should not be seeing any current through the grounding prong, so neutral as a ground should be OK. Am I on the right track here?

P.S: I plan to fix it anyway. I'm more curious than lazy.

In the case of your air compressor and welder, they require a 240V only circuit. All components within the air compressor and welder are 240V items so the circuit that feeds them is only going to be 240V. In a 240V only circuit, there is no separate neutral. Only two 120V legs, one from each side of the panel and a ground. This makes the 120V legs on different cycles 180 degrees apart. The third wire is the ground. Because the two 120V legs are 180 degrees apart, when the one leg is at 120V, the other is at 0 volts and visa-versa. It is how alternating current works. It actually turns off and on. So, when on leg is at 120V, the other leg acts as the neutral and visa versa.
On some appliances such as dryers and ranges, the voltage required is shown on the tag as 120v/240v. This means there are components in the appliance that require only 120v and some that are 220 volt. These appliances should have a 4 prong, 4 wire circuit. By code, they must have a 4 wire circuit. One each for the 110V legs, one for a neutral (the neutral is required for the 110v components), and the last for the ground. These appliances will work with just three wires, although you will not have a dedicated ground. Essentially, the neutral and ground are being handled by one wire when they are connected with just three wires. It will work, but not code.
So, devices that require 220V only, three wires (usually a Black/white and bare ground. The white wire should be wrapped with red tape when used in a 240V circuit).
Devices that require 120/240V, four wires (usually a Black, Red, White and bare ground).
And yes, if you are wiring to a main panel, both the neutral bar and ground bars are bonded together. If you are wiring to a sub-panel, the neutral bar and ground bar should be separated (un-bonded).
The neutral can be thought of as the utility company ground and the isolated ground is a local ground. Yes, they are both connected together to assure there is no chance of a lack of ground. Most utilities now require two ground stakes per service panel to assure there is no chance of a lack of sufficient ground.
The issue you have is, the unused ground wire shouldn't just be floating in the box. it must be either cut off or taped and folded back in the box so there is not chance that it can get in contact with the 120V terminals. Using the white wire as the ground in you 3 prong plug isn't a problem although it should have green tape wrapped on it, both at the receptacle end and the panel end and it should be connected to the ground bar.
Actually, in a three wire 240V outlet, if 12-3 w/ground, 10-3 w/ground or 8-3 w/ground wire is used, only three of the wires should be used. The black and red will be the 120V legs and either the white wire of bare ground wire can be used for the ground. The wire that isn't used must be insulated so that it doesn't contact any other terminal.
 

Speedy Petey

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The neutral can be thought of as the utility company ground and the isolated ground is a local ground. Yes, they are both connected together to assure there is no chance of a lack of ground. Most utilities now require two ground stakes per service panel to assure there is no chance of a lack of sufficient ground.
We need to stop thinking that the earth (ie:ground rods) have anything to do with equipment grounds. Ground wires run with circuits (equipment grounds) are VERY different animals than grounding electrodes (ground rods) and serve very different purposes.
 
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OSULemon

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We need to stop thinking that the earth (ie:ground rods) have anything to do with equipment grounds. Ground wires run with circuits (equipment grounds) are VERY different animals than grounding electrodes (ground rods) and serve very different purposes.

Good to know. :thumbup: I'll keep that in mind as I keep reading.
 

gpflepsen

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[quote name="OSULemon" post=5375003]

... Because the two 120V legs are 180 degrees apart, when the one leg is at 120V, the other is at 0 volts and visa-versa. [/quote]

The two legs are 180 degrees out of phase, but when one is at its maximum, the other is at its minimum, hence the voltage difference is 240 VAC.

Actual voltage is even higher (41% higher). When you see 120/240 VAC, that's the time averaged equivalent voltage for power delivery, i.e. 120 or 240 VAC rms.

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ShakinLM7

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Voltage can vary, 2 pole usually runs about 240v most places i've worked, My understanding is that 220v and below is found more in very rural area's / third world countries / ect. Most everything designed to run off of 2 pole can do so safely with a supply voltage between 220-240.
 
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Speedy Petey

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Voltage can vary, 2 phase usually runs about 240v most places i've worked, My understanding is that 220v and below is found more in very rural area's / third world countries / ect. Most everything designed to run off of 2 phase can do so safely with a supply voltage between 220-240.
What we have here in North America is NOT 2-phase, it is single phase, or more accurately split-phase.
Calling it 2-phase is not only wrong it is misleading since 2-phase does exist but is extremely rare.




The difference between 3 and 4 wire is the unit / appliance being connected. Newer electric cloth dryer for instance uses 2 phase 220/240v to power the heat strips and sometimes the drive motor and most use single phase 110/120v for the control wiring, limit switches, and lighting.
Older dryers used 2 phase 220/240v for everything so there was no need for a neutral wire.
Do you have an example of one of these older straight 240V dryers?? In all my years I've never seen one. All I have seen are modern European style high-end imported dryers that are straight 240V.
 

theoldwizard1

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My mistake with the terminology. I thought 220V and 240V were interchangeable terms.

In the US, the 2 terms get used interchangeably, but strictly from a voltage standpoint. (I still don't know when/why "220" became "240", I don't think the voltage been delivered to your meter actually changed.)

As someone else mentioned, different 220/240/250 3 wire receptacles wire the 3rd pin differently.

From Wikipedia :
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All NEMA 6 devices are three-wire grounding devices (hot-hot-ground) used for 208 V and 240 V circuits and rated for 250 V maximum ...
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NEMA 10 devices are a curious throwback to an earlier time. They are classified as 125/250 V non-grounding (hot-hot-neutral), yet they are usually used in a manner that effectively grounds the appliance, though not in a manner consistent with most modern practice.

10-50 is still commonly used on welders.
 
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sberry

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I have been working on this and am going back to read this thread to see every way it can be mis understood, I have heard most of them. But without thinking every variation thru the machine could be subject to current under some circumstances with ground hooked to N of a 4 wire.
Something as simple as having another grounded tool sitting on top of the welder could create an alternate pathway for neutral current.
 

sberry

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I have the same issue going on with local handyman. I have actually followed a few things in my neighborhood and even went back and fixed a couple things I could from old installations I did when I was a kid and more,, ha. I looked at one during a furnace call and see someone beat me to it.
Today I see handyman with beautiful work but its obvious no one has sit them down and actually went completely thru this system. A mix of new and old doesn't help.
I agree with Speedy, its almost impossible to get them past the idea that the ground rod is a different issue. Certainly at that point in the learning curve. Its a case where its almost easier to teach someone that knows nothing.
I tracked 3 or 4 of these in my neighborhood doing it and a couple that did it for a career died. I didn't believe in a ground wire and deliberately disconnected or cut of wires to equipment. I see a couple current ones figured out you sposed to run 4 wire but they land it the same as the service and leave the bond out leaving a floating can.
 

sberry

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I gt one now you cant splain to as he is just smart enough to know more than most people about this kind of thing especially since it "all works" and he probably does understand electrical theory better than I do but he is missing a link.
 

sberry

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Back in the day welders may have used a range plug,,, I am not for sure but this is not current. The only ones I believe come plug and cord are 6-50. When they came with grounded electric it changed.
 

sberry

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The one I refer to above has a pole mounted service which was installed by sparky and the owner then ran 3 wire and heard that the second panel at the house shouldnt be bonded to the ground so the only means and the equipment connected are to a rod. Then there is another panel within this semi steel building with 3 wire with the equipments and N all fudged up to a rod pounded thru the floor to "ground it all"
This whole building shop/house is one seething neutral, pipe all over fuk, metal heating duct, benches, home rigged lights and I believe missing a bond and marrying the neutrals and equipment downstream.
Its interesting to think this thru a bit and remember a 3 wire dryer had an insulated wire and wires terminated at the machine on the same bar, the rest of the currents in the machine being on insulated wire.
 
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sberry

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Something that does help once the learning curve starts here is referring to the wires as ungrounded conductors, grounded conductors, grounding conductors and at which point the grounded conductor is a neutral. In 120V circuits is is a grounded conductor and as part of the service is if it is the only load on it. Its only neutral as part of a multi wire when both legs are used.
 
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sberry

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The basic concept is to insulate all the operating currents back to the service main and bond together all the equipment cases (and a little thru a rod) the earth, the rebar in the floor or footing, the water piping, any metal someone may contact is at the same potential without current flowing, bonded at neutral service main to deliver a fault current for a dead short to trip a breaker.
GFCI really is a beautiful thing, works in the event of a faulty electric system or ungrounded equipment.
 

sberry

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The bond screw simply marries the can at service and any metal piping connected to it. If one used a separate G bar or lug in a main panel this would be its bond to N connection.
So, a second panel or old service connected to another panel needs a bond at second panel. The problem is it now allows N currents to flow on ground/grounded pathways. A perfect example would be metal gas line feeding both garage and house.
 
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zmaxmotorsports

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First off, you cannot just go swapping "angled blade" for "straight blade" "220" receptacles without confirmation of what wires exist and what the amperage is.

There are 240V receptacles and 120/240V receptacles. Then there is the amperage. The configuration of the blades determines both. "220v" is not only an incorrect term, it is only half of the circuit description.



Yes, it definitely matters, and NO, the recommended way is NOT to use the ground wire instead of the neutral. WHO Keeps perpetuating this dangerous MYTH???



THIS is why you use a neutral, NOT a ground, in "3-wire" dryer and range circuits. Because the neutral carries current, and any compromise in this neutral would create a dangerous situating if a bare ground were used.



This is why it needs to be remembered that this whole 3-wire vs 4-wire "220V" thing ONLY applies to household cooking appliances and dryers, NOTHING else.
Outside those two categories is 240V (two hots and a ground) and 120/240V (two hots, neutral and ground)
;);););););)
 

sberry

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For the sake of my sanity and safety as I learn everything I thought I knew about wiring....

Provided I have this setup, with a 3 wire feeder from the main into a detached garage with a separate grounding rod:

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?fo...ww.nachi.org/forum/attachmen...d-building.jpg


Should I go ahead and bond the neutral and ground bars in the subpanel?

I didnt look at the pic but a 3 wire feed needs the N and the G bonded. Ok, I look at the pic, do it like that.
 
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OSULemon

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I didnt look at the pic but a 3 wire feed needs the N and the G bonded. Ok, I look at the pic, do it like that.

Done - bonded neutral to the panel with included green screw. Thanks Speedy and everyone else for your help!
 

Pwrgeek

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I didnt look at the pic but a 3 wire feed needs the N and the G bonded. Ok, I look at the pic, do it like that.


Not legal under latest NEC. You must carry a separate EGC and not bond the neutral bar at the sub panel.


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Ray_PA

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Not legal under latest NEC. You must carry a separate EGC and not bond the neutral bar at the sub panel.


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Agreed. I recently built a large unattached garage that had all the construction inspected. The electrical inspection required that a separate EGC be run from the house to the garage and the garage panel (which is now a sub-panel) to not be bonded. The inspector also wanted two ground stakes at both locations along with a ground connection to all copper water lines and the hot and cold water lines bonded together. From what I was told by the electrician and inspector, the current NEC indicates sub-panels must not be bonded and there must be a separate EGC run between the panels.

This means, there are 3 wires (two 120V legs and one neutral, all insulated and the same size) and a separate ground wire running between the panels and the sub-panel is not bonded. Two ground stakes at both panels connected to the ground bar in each respective panel.
 

Norcal

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As a existing installation it is fine, but does require proper bonding & grounding electrode, but would not be allowed to be done that way under current code.
 

Pwrgeek

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As a existing installation it is fine, but does require proper bonding & grounding electrode, but would not be allowed to be done that way under current code.


True but then we get into what constitutes modification requiring compliance with current code. In my area any change to the sub-panel or main panel would require it to be brought to current. Basically touch either end and you have to bring it current.


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myredracer

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If you want correct answers, go ask or search here where there are electricians, engineers, inspectors, etc.: http://codeforum.mikeholt.com/ Don't be looking on sites like a DIY chatroom, nachi and the like. (There are some very knowledgeable folks here.)

One thing to note is that in a cable (romex in a house), the ground wire is typically a smaller gauge so if it were connected to the neutral prong and if the current were high enough it could overheat resulting in a fire. A ground wire is not intended (or permitted) to be a current carrying conductor.

At the end of the day, safety is paramount. If changing out something (like in the OP's case) it should be made safe and to current code requirements.
 
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Speedy Petey

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If you want correct answers, go ask or search here where there are electricians, engineers, inspectors, etc.: http://codeforum.mikeholt.com/ Don't be looking on sites like a DIY chatroom, nachi and the like. (There are some very knowledgeable folks here.)
I disagree.

There are a lot of qualified folks here, and incorrect info is quickly weeded out.
Besides, a lot of the same folks that frequent Holt's are members here.
 
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