Are These Beams Structural?

[stanae86]

Trying to figure out if I can install a 4 post lift in the garage. To do it, I would need a high lift garage door modification.

The problem are two diagonal beams connecting the garage door wall to the side walls. I’m not one to believe things are there for no reason, but a friend suggested that they may have been there for support prior to the installation of the roof and with the roof in place, may not serve much purpose anymore?

If that’s NOT the case, is there an alternate way to get the same bracing by relocating these somewhere so the garage door can open “high?”

Thanks!

 

[Renegade1LI]

The fact they are 2 x 4s they were probably braces from construction, usually just left them in place.

 

[Stuart in MN]

I suspect they are there to prevent the building from racking because of wind load.

 

[nadogail]

Add me to those who think those beams are intended to counter the possibility of the building being pushed out of square.

 

[John McA]

Replace the door with an alternative: Awning or coiling perhaps. Awning nets some outside covered area for projects.

If they were temporary from construction, I wonder why they were let into the top plate? Roof: The original skip shtg was left when the newer osb was installed. Garage looks like 1900-1920. Maybe earlier. The opening looks like it was smaller. Has the lateral system on either side of the door opening been upgraded?

I would have a friend with some structural experience take a look at the overall picture. In person.
Good luck,
John McA

 

[strutaeng]

If the garage still had wood shingles, I would say leave them there. Those braces were added to keep the footprint square since there wasn't any ceiling.

But it seems the roof now has OSB deck and that's a structural diaphragm, so the braces aren't really doing anything.

It's like that photo of the "let-in" brace they used put to on the corner from the sill to the top plate...and the exterior has wood panel sheathing!

 

[Rusted Nut]

They are "collar ties". The hip rafter are trying to push wall corners out, the collar ties keep the walls from spreading apart.

 

[stanae86]

House is 1949, if I remember right. Originally wood shingle roof that was replaced with composite when we moved in, in 2006. Nothing structural has been changed or upgraded that I know of.

The header to the garage door opening has survived two bicycles being driven into it on car roof racks. Roof rack was sold to prevent further inadvertent structural testing.

 

[PoorUB]

They are "collar ties". The hip rafter are trying to push wall corners out, the collar ties keep the walls from spreading apart.

Look at the roof sructure, there are no trusses, just stick framed. If they are removed there is nothing to prevent the load from the roof pushing out on the tops of the walls.

 

[dave_dj1]

I wouldn't hesitate to cut them out of my way. The sheathing on the roof and the natural design of the roof load will prevent any sagging or pushing. In order for walls to push out the roof would have to come down. The sheathing on the roof and the load being transferred to the corners via hip rafters take the load to the corners. Consult an engineer to be safe.

 

[NUTTSGT]

The top plate way put in around them, so I don't think they were meant to be temporary.

These old hip roof designs seem to give people the most fits when trying to modernize their garage.

 

[billconner]

I agree with those that note hip roofs do not require rafter ties (nor collar ties which these are not). And the addition of the OSB only improves that.

If still concerned put up a string line before removing the diagonals, and see if there is a change. A horizontal beam - like a 2x12 - maybe in combination with much shorter diagonals - would replace the long diagonals.

 

[jack stand]

That is a beautifully built roof!
I'd be inclined to solve this with a different style door as previously mentioned.

 

[bluedog225]

I would not remove those.

 

[The Tool Tyrant]

32 years of professional framing knowledge speaking here... actually, they're known as 'CORNER TIES'. This roof originally had a shake shingle roof as you can see the original 1X6 'SKIP SHEATHING' which allowed the shakes to breath (dry out).
The corner ties are structural as they add the diagonal (45°) member to the 90° corner which keeps the walls from racking. I doubt the OSB that was added over the skip sheathing was structurally nailed into the rafters as most roofers just staple it into the 1x6. I recommend you leave them.

 

[bluedog225]

Great point. We don’t know how the osb was nailed/stapled.

 

[davejo]

That is a beautifully built roof!
I'd be inclined to solve this with a different style door as previously mentioned.

Yes, those 2x4 are completely integrated into the design. More evidence is that they are probably precisely matched ie equilateral triangles. Temporary bracing would more likely be slightly haphazard looking with different lengths and random angles.

Since they don't look saggy after decades, is that evidence that they are indeed doing a job under tension? They are placed in the wrong orientation to resist gravity.

 

[CraigStu]

I think they are needed. I know it is somewhat apples to oranges but my SIL built a garage w/ two doors. I forget the exact numbers but he ended up w/ that wall being made up of three 2ft (or so) pieces. One at each end and one between the doors. He had to do some very specific changes to the framing to get a permit. One thing I remember is he used glulams over the doors and they wanted them to go all the way to the corners of the wall. While your garage is different it has a similar problem. A door in a wall that leaves very little wall left. I would grab a couple of 2x2s or similar and play around with seeing how much the end of your door tracks can be moved up before they hit the diagonals. I could be wrong but, looking at the pics, I think the track may be able to be raised 24-30 inches.

 

[mike93lx]

I would not remove them unless an engineer looked at it and ok'd it.

 

[41plym]

I would not remove them.
But what do I know?

 

[billconner]

If that’s NOT the case, is there an alternate way to get the same bracing by relocating these somewhere so the garage door can open “high?”

A horizontal beam and shorter and more stout diagonals in the corners, outside of garage doors.

 

[Denwood]

I'd leave the collar ties alone and install a roll up door. The roof has no insulation so I'm guessing R value is not a worry.

Otherwise, I'd be looking at Bill's suggestion, or at least have a qualified engineer take a look. I'm guessing snow load is not an issue in Sacramento

Adding the sheathing after the fact definitely changes the load path on the structure and may in fact obviate the corner ties. In order for a wall to "bulge" at the top plate, the roof membrane would need to buckle. If you consider the forces involved in doing that, vs the tension in a single 2x4, it would make sense.

 

[mikedodge]

If it were my garage I'd leave them.

 

[John McA]

So. Modify the garage (possibly compromising the structure) to modify the existing door (high lift track) to provide some clearance for the lift? All of which will still take space away from the interior envelope.

End goal is to provide max clearance for a car sitting on a lift. And reuse an existing door.
If I were doing this I would be looking at one of these types of door.

https://www.youtube.com/@AmbitionStrikes

or this:

 

[John McA]

 

[John McA]

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/551057704405530257/

 

[Zeke]

This exact thread appeared a few months ago.

 

[stanae86]

This exact thread appeared a few months ago.

Sorry, probably the lack of proper terminology in my searches, coming from a layman’s vocabulary.

 

[John McA]

How did this issue get resolved?

 

[stanae86]

I think it’s getting resolved by way of insufficient height for a lift.

I have horizontal beams further in in the garage that even to my eyes, appear very much structural and with the cars I have, I will not have enough height to accommodate a lifted car without re-doing the entire garage in some way.



Although car clearance was the first thing I looked at, I did not account for the additional few inches in height necessary to raise the lift to release the locks. I’m short by about 3”.

So until I hit the lottery and get a Ford GT or something else sufficiently low, my parking situation will remain unchanged. Although they do have those underground lifts…



Unfortunately, I’d need to hit the lottery for that too.

 

[mike93lx]

I think it’s getting resolved by way of insufficient height for a lift.

I have horizontal beams further in in the garage that even to my eyes, appear very much structural and with the cars I have, I will not have enough height to accommodate a lifted car without re-doing the entire garage in some way.



Although car clearance was the first thing I looked at, I did not account for the additional few inches in height necessary to raise the lift to release the locks. I’m short by about 3”.

So until I hit the lottery and get a Ford GT or something else sufficiently low, my parking situation will remain unchanged. Although they do have those underground lifts…



Unfortunately, I’d need to hit the lottery for that too.

Lowered miatas are very short too

 

[Denwood]

Your issue can be resolved with an engineer's help and some LVL beams. I'm guessing you have some seismic considerations to account for...pretty hard to wing that without a pro.

 

[stanae86]

Yes, but the idea of a $20k lift isn’t worth the divorce.

 

[dave_dj1]

Scroll down and form your own opinion, I have 44 years experience building houses, page 15 I think

https://www.bbrsd.org/cms/lib/MA01907488/Centricity/Domain/250/Framing%20a%20Roof.pdf

 

[John McA]

It would be a fairly simple process to lift the roof 3" to 6".
One question:
Is the garage detached?

 

[ybnormal]

other option, raise the roof like you were building a second story on a house. that will get you the lift you want and a proper attic storage area.

 

[stanae86]

It’s an attached garage. From the hoops I’ve have to jump through just to remodel the kitchen and bath, I think my time and money would be better spent elsewhere given my wife wouldn’t be nearly as eager about it as the kitchen and bath. California and Sacramento are pretty notorious when it comes to permits, projects, etc.

 

[stevied916]

I've done projects in the City of Sac and just a heads up, if you were to pull a permit to modify the roof it would cost around $4k for someone to draft and an engineer to stamp the plans plus permitting fees. Could you use a scissor lift or do you want the 4 post to store another car?

 

[TRWham]

A couple of general comments:
Again we see confusion between rafter ties and collar ties. Collar ties are installed in the upper third of rafters and resist uplift imposed by wind loads. Rafter ties are installed in the lower third and resist wall spread caused by the lateral component of the load in the rafters.

In a true hip roof, meaning it looks like a pyramid and has no horizontal ridge, you may not need rafter ties because the wall plates are in tension in reaction to the loads in hip rafters. However, if there is any horizontal ridge, there will be a contest between the loads because of the direction they are applied to the walls (hip rafters vs common rafters) and rafter ties are probably a good idea. The longer the ridge, the more this is true.

 

[John McA]

It’s an attached garage. From the hoops I’ve have to jump through just to remodel the kitchen and bath, I think my time and money would be better spent elsewhere given my wife wouldn’t be nearly as eager about it as the kitchen and bath. California and Sacramento are pretty notorious when it comes to permits, projects, etc.

So. A little less simple. K&B remodel simple: Continuous foundation or, slab on grade? Floor plan change? Historic residence? Flood plain? Intending to stay long term or, flip asap?
Good luck,
John McA