Are these breakers done right?

[jarhead]

This looks odd to me. Just want to check to see what the consensus is? I have never seen metal tabs like these. I also have never seen 220 circuits split apart. looking at the odd breakers.

Panel is a Cutler-Hammer 200A upgrade to a 1975 house.

Looking to buy this house and don't want to get bit in the @ss.
Thanks, Joe

 

[mike93lx]

Those are quads, which are a thing, however the most important question is regarding if the panel is rated for them and if they are the right models. We would need to see the panel label to know if tandems/quads are allowable in those spots.

Qt breakers are Siemens, which I bet aren't rated for that panel.

The cover fitment is very poor... Maybe just reinstalled lazily or maybe a sign of other poor workmanship. The quads and tandems indicate the panel is stuffed

Its just a couple pics, but I'd be planning for a panel swap to something larger, regardless of the age of that panel

 

[cliffcharb]

During my recent remodel the electrician installed a couple of those breakers to mine as well. Siemens panel, mid 90’s home.
My panel was full at the time of remodel.

 

[jarhead]

Thanks. here is what i took. I am 80 miles away so wont get more pictures for at least a week.

 

[mike93lx]

Thanks. here is what i took. I am 80 miles away so wont get more pictures for at least a week.

I bet it's a night mare with the cover off. That panel should be at least 2x that size

And yes, that qt breaker is not kosher, plus you are way over the 200a per stab max

 

[jarhead]

Thanks, I had to look up QT and the small 110 breakers..

Will be removing...
50A stove (going to gas)
30A dryer (going to gas)
50A hot tub (there isn't one)
15A swamp cooler (house has 2 AC units, 2 Furnace)

There are THREE microwave circuits ( One 20A and Two 15A)

Three bathrooms and an outside outlet on a 15A AFCI

Lots of R&R if they accept our offer after the inspection

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hoping to redo the detached garage from scratch that's on a 60A fed by aluminum wire.
Does this all sound feasible on a 60A if i cleanup the above 200A panel???

I have...
40A air compressor
20A Milling machine
20A lathe
30A heater
30A welders (2)
20A Jet air filtration

multiple lights
multiple outlets
garage door opener

 

[mike93lx]

Thanks, I had to look up QT and the small 110 breakers..

Will be removing...
50A stove (going to gas)
30A dryer (going to gas)
50A hot tub (there isn't one)
15A swamp cooler (house has 2 AC units, 2 Furnace)

There are THREE microwave circuits ( One 20A and Two 15A)

Three bathrooms and an outside outlet on a 15A AFCI

Lots of R&R if they accept our offer after the inspection

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hoping to redo the detached garage from scratch that's on a 60A fed by aluminum wire.
Does this all sound feasible on a 60A if i cleanup the above 200A panel???

I have...
40A air compressor
20A Milling machine
20A lathe
30A heater
30A welders (2)
20A Jet air filtration

multiple lights
multiple outlets
garage door opener

I'd still swap the panel, but that may get you under the 200a per bus limit

For the garage, what you will have in there matters less than how many people will be using it. It's not easy for a single person to use over 60a. Biggest issue is plasma cutter with a large air compressor, plus hvac.
You should check if the garage has a 3 wire feed... If so, this is a good time to upgrade it

 

[jarhead]

Thanks Mike,
Yes just me using the detached garage. Coming from the main panel has three #4 aluminum and no ground. Upgrade to?

 

[mike93lx]

Thanks Mike,
Yes just me using the detached garage. Coming from the main panel has three #4 aluminum and no ground. Upgrade to?

You want four insulated feeders

Is the wire in conduit? Adding a 4th may not be terrible and then you can properly unbond that subpanel, improving safety

 

[mm08822]

I'm only seeing 130A max per stab. Far below max permitted of 200A.

 

[mike93lx]

I'm only seeing 130A max per stab. Far below max permitted of 200A.

****. I was thinking the bus, not stab. My bad

 

[jarhead]

You want four insulated feeders

Is the wire in conduit? Adding a 4th may not be terrible and then you can properly unbond that subpanel, improving safety

It is in conduit going into ground at both panels. Hopefully it is from point A to B.

 

[mike93lx]

It is in conduit going into ground at both panels. Hopefully it is from point A to B.

You could try pushing a wire snake through, lube would help

 

[jarhead]

This is the 60 amp panel in the detached garage.
Looks like we will be getting about 2K to fix the electrical issues on the house and garage.

 

[mike93lx]

This is the 60 amp panel in the detached garage.
Looks like we will be getting about 2K to fix the electrical issues on the house and garage.

That will help. Where do we sent invoices?

 

[bugnut]

QUESTION, I am looking at the pics and seeing what appears to be 2 60's running to the garage or am I mistaken? Thanks in advance for educating me. NOT an electrician!

 

[mike93lx]

QUESTION, I am looking at the pics and seeing what appears to be 2 60's running to the garage or am I mistaken? Thanks in advance for educating me. NOT an electrician!

Its a two pole breaker to give 240v. 60a @ 240v

Most of those breakers are tandems, which stuff two circuits in one space. Nothing wrong with that, but it makes the regular two pole look larger

 

[bugnut]

@mike93lx Thanks for the explanation!

 

[Norcal]

Siemens is not UL classified for BR panels, use the listed Eaton BR breakers for BR panels or as I call them "Zinsco II". Eaton CL is UL classified for a lot of panel makes, but they are more expensive then BR breakers.

 

[jarhead]

Not really sure what you just said there, lol.
Inspector was saying the eaton breaker should not be in that panel. It should be replaced with a GFCI of the panel brand. Is that correct or?
Regardless they decided to not give us the cash and have all the questionable things R&R'd.

 

[Norcal]

The whole breaker "interchangeability" thing is clear as mud, there is listed and classified breakers, UL listed ones are the same manufacturer as the panel make & type, UL classified is where breakers are classified to be in competitors panels, Eaton CL is one that is classified for a number of manufacturers of panels that use the common 1" wide breakers, SQ D Homeline is not classified for use in any competitive make, Siemens, is listed for Siemens, ITE, Gould/ITE, Murray, Crouse-Hinds, panels, no competitive makes, the original make of breaker is always best & usually cheaper then the classified one.

 

[jarhead]

@Norcal , awesome Thank you!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

deleted

 

[walta]

To my eye that panel has had every trick possible done to avoid upgrading the panel and service.

The arc fault breaker would indicate the work was done in the last few years.

It looks like they could not run the AC and the hot tub at the same time without a problem.

1975 is a little scarry in that the wiring could be aluminum and not copper we would like to find. I would want to know if it has AL wires before I bought and if an electrician was paid upgrade all the AL connections.

Sure, buying all gas appliances will help one live with an undersized service and panel but you are swimming against todays trends and in a few years all that gas stuff may make the home undesirable and lower its value.

When you talk price consider that the service is most likely 100 Amps undersized by todays standards and 2K will not likely pay for a service upgrade. Get a quote for the service upgrade before you make an offer.

Walta