Are these really "antique" forged wing dividers?

[IainP]

Hi everyone. I bought some forged wing dividers (?) at an antiques fair at the weekend, and the seller claimed they were very old, probably dated back to the 1820s. I'd love to believe him, and they certainly seem to have the feel and look of great age, but I've no great confidence they really could be that old!
I'm hoping someone might be able to take an educated guess as to the period they might date from, in fact any information on them would be very much appreciated.
I've put some close up photos of them on my blog here.
Many thanks, Iain
Antique dividers

 

[Cleave]

Very nice dividers, but I can't help you on the age.

 

[Joe Huld]

They certainly look the part. While there is no reason that skilled present day smith could not make such a tool, most smiths in the last 150 years or so would have bought dividers and spent their time on profitable work. The major exceptions are apprentice made pieces that were intended as training exercises. A smith I knew, who apprenticed in the 1920s, had a beautiful double caliper that he hand forged in 1926. Can't really tell from your pictures but it looks like it is made of wrought iron rater than mild steel which would date it 1890 or earlier. Attached are pictures of my hand forged wrought iron dividers. At about $4.50 USD you stole them.

 

[IainP]

Thanks for the replies guys. I'm pleased they are probably 19th Century at least, given the use I'm going to put them to on the Gunter's Rule, dating from late 18th Century to very early 19th.
"At about $4.50 USD you stole them." I seem to be doing well on the bargains recently. I got the Gunter's Rule (in the video on the link, and in my avatar) for a mere ...er... $12.50 USD, found on a table under a pile of simple folding rules at an antiques fair the other day. As I mention in the video, they are super rare, and the only one I've ever seen on eBay sold for $240 USD.
Iain

 

[rlitman]

Being hand made, I agree with Joe Huld that they will be nearly impossible to pin down to a specific date. Smiths TODAY still work in wrought iron by re-working old scrap. And you've got very talented guys still forging in mild steel, which is surprisingly difficult to differentiate from wrought iron (this example was made in 2014).


Your dividers don't have a fine adjust spring, and have fairly simple adornments, so I'd expect you to have a difficult time identifying their maker, which may be the only way to pin down their age. I'd take a closer look at the thumbscrew, as the threading may help set some boundaries. Also, how was the slot inside the joint cut? Can you see saw marks in there?

But from your pictures alone, I see nothing that definitively rules out an 1820 date of manufacture. Nice find. As for value, well, many of the people here have a finer appreciation for rust than the average Joe. I'd surely spend $5 on them, and I'd put them to use. Then again, I own several Pexto wing dividers that I use regularly, and since those all have a fine adjust spring, I'd be reaching for them first.

 

[Cleave]

Maybe if you can figure out the threading on the thumb screw, or look at the thread shape under a microscope, you'd at least get some data points - like if the threads are obviously cut with a 10-32 UNC tap, it probably wasn't 1820.

 

[IainP]

Here are a few macro shots of the slot and the thumb screw. I don't see any saw marks, and not sure what I'm looking for re the thread cuts, but hope these may be illuminating to those in the know!
Many thanks:
Macro shots of thumb screw and slot

 

[leg17]

Looks like swaged threads, not cut threads.
Pre 1860 seems like a real good late limit.
Could possibly be a century older than that.

 

[IainP]

Wow, that's great to know, thank you!

 

[four.cycle]

not sure why you weren't able to just post the photos here.

 

[IainP]

I haven't posted to the forum for a long time and assumed that to upload photos directly here I would need to resize the many large files, whereas with the blog post I can just drag in multiple images in one go and I'm done in seconds.

 

[rlitman]

@IainP Ever since the last forum software upgrade, auto-resizing images works here too.

Back to your original question about if they are "antique". I don't think we'll ever really know for certain, but I also don't think that affects their value. They're certainly hand made and of reasonably good quality, and the modern day replicas sell for about as much as the originals. It's certainly a keeper.

 

[IainP]

"Ever since the last forum software upgrade, auto-resizing images works here too." Ah, that's good to know thank you. I'm on another forum and uploading photos is quite a chore! I'll do it properly here next time...
"I also don't think that affects their value." Agreed. I like the idea of things having a lot of age, but as you say, they are fine as they are, and definitely look great with the Gunter's Rule, and do the job.

 

[Cleave]

That thread is definitely not cut with a modern tap/die set as said above. Great pictures!
I've found a pair of wing dividers/compass near at hand is useful for many layout/measuring tasks, not just drawing circles.

 

[RTM]

I keep one near my PC so I can scale tools in pictures. Make important decisions on planes that way.

 

[IainP]

Yes, I'm beginning to develop quite a fascination for these, and finding more uses as I go along! I just bought a very large one, which I'll post up here on a new thread.