Arson/State fire marshall

[boo coo tracks]

Empty House burns, house in bankruptcy for 6 figures. The state fire marshal investigates as diesel soaked rags were found. My loss is nothing other than in our part of country, neighbors try to look out for each other & I drive by the scene every day. SFM's won't tell me anything as to the status of this. One question ? Will insurance pay on a claim, if someone torches you house.
Sign me curious!!!
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[chrommagman]

that *****!!!

 

[bczygan]

Happens many times a day and night here in Detroit. Homeowner buys the most insurance they can, which is about a 66K policy (Because of the risk it will burn here), and magically it goes up in flames soon after.
Homeowner gets estimates on repairs (I used to do these).
Insurance co. pays.
Homeowner buys another house for 8K and goes on vacation until new insurance kicks in.

 

[rvr6000]

We responded to a similar situation a couple years ago. Nice single family house with walk-out basement that was being foreclosed on. The family getting kicked out was there the night before hauling stuff out and 12 hours later the empty house was on fire. Well....almost empty.....the fire burned thru the floor of the kitchen almost dropping a 200lb oak table on my head while I was hitting some hot spots in the furnace room.

I know our FM ruled it arson but I don't know if the insurance company ever paid anything.

It's sad so many people think this is the answer.....never thinking about the lives they put at risk.

 

[bazzateer]

Empty House burns, house in bankruptcy for 6 figures. The state fire marshal investigates as diesel soaked rags were found. My loss is nothing other than in our part of country, neighbors try to look out for each other & I drive by the scene every day. SFM's won't tell me anything as to the status of this. One question ? Will insurance pay on a claim, if someone torches you house.
Sign me curious!!!
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I'm confused, is the property yours?

Insurance should cover arson provided it's not the policy-holder who commits the arson!

 

[nehog]

Agreed, confusing post!

And agreed, as long as the beneficiary was not 'involved' in the arson, the insurance will (have to) pay. However, the insurance company will drag it out as long as possible in hopes that they can show the beneficiary was responsible in some way, as once fraud is found they are off the hook.

If it is not your property, then the fire marshal should not tell you anything. You have no reason to know, it isn't your business, you have no vested interest in the property.

 

[draglink]

..... what?

 

[SuperSocket]

Agreed, confusing post!

And agreed, as long as the beneficiary was not 'involved' in the arson, the insurance will (have to) pay. However, the insurance company will drag it out as long as possible in hopes that they can show the beneficiary was responsible in some way, as once fraud is found they are off the hook.

If it is not your property, then the fire marshal should not tell you anything. You have no reason to know, it isn't your business, you have no vested interest in the property.

This.

 

[boo coo tracks]

Are you telling me that if the house nexted to your house you would not be concerned??
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[daveroy]

Freedom of information act, once the report is complete it is public knowledge. They may refuse to comment on and on-going investigation till its complete and any criminal charges are cleared/prosecuted. But once all that is done, you can find out everything.

 

[Nighttrain]

So the house next door burned down and was vacant. Sounds like the bank owns the house now or is in the limbo. We have the same issue next door to us. Problem is that the house is just going to sit there for a year or more while it goes through the legal limbo. Was there squatters in the house that may have torched it? Can't see why the old owner did unless they still had insurance on it.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

This happened nearby on a commercial property I'm familier with. Arson but unable to bring a case against the owners or anyone else.

After dragging their feet for over a year, the insurance company refused the claim based on questions about the buildings sprinkler system. The building owner had not had required inspections performed, and there was evidence that some of the system had been shut off due to leaks.

I think in an arson situation (where the owner is a suspect) the insurance company is very likely to take a "you want us to pay? Then make us." attitude if they've got anything at all they can use as cause.

Heck...I'd have the same attitude.

Phil

 

[draglink]

Are you telling me that if the house nexted to your house you would not be concerned??
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Yes I think we all would...No way we knew that by your first post....you write sort of crypted

 

[mngundog]

Its not a crime to burn your own house down, it becomes a crime when you try to claim the insurance. The fire marshal will probably keep his investigation open for awhile.

 

[oldnndway]

Sometimes those notes get to rubbing together and WHOOSH ... spontaneous combustion.

 

[weadjust]

I have been an adjuster for 20 years. If the property is financed the bank is an additional insured. The bank always gets paid.

I have an account with one insurance co. that writes a lot of bank repo houses. I get at least 1 vacant repo with fire damage a month in Memphis. There really isn't much that can cause a fire in a vacant house with no utilities except lightning or arson. Lots of vandalism damage to bathrooms to steal copper. $10K- 20K worth of damage for $10 worth of copper pipe. Stealing the a/c units is pretty popular.

Kinda scary sometimes going into a boarded up house by yourself with no back up. I do lock and load before entering. Sometimes I have to tell some hookers or crack heads to vacated the porch for a little while I'm there. Have had several ladies think I was looking for some action.

 

[MattT]

Sometimes those notes get to rubbing together and WHOOSH ... spontaneous combustion.

Yeah bare wires rubbing against insurance policies cause a lot of fires.

 

[Torque1st]

I have been an adjuster for 20 years. If the property is financed the bank is an additional insured. The bank always gets paid.

I have an account with one insurance co. that writes a lot of bank repo houses. I get at least 1 vacant repo with fire damage a month in Memphis. There really isn't much that can cause a fire in a vacant house with no utilities except lightning or arson. Lots of vandalism damage to bathrooms to steal copper. $10K- 20K worth of damage for $10 worth of copper pipe. Stealing the a/c units is pretty popular.

Kinda scary sometimes going into a boarded up house by yourself with no back up. I do lock and load before entering. Sometimes I have to tell some hookers or crack heads to vacated the porch for a little while I'm there. Have had several ladies think I was looking for some action.

The worst part is that the "insurance company" is just a pool of money collected from ALL of us so WE are paying for arson. So for that reason, as well as lives endangered, arson of any kind is a concern for all of us.

 

[Mike662]

Freedom of information act, once the report is complete it is public knowledge. They may refuse to comment on and on-going investigation till its complete and any criminal charges are cleared/prosecuted. But once all that is done, you can find out everything.

This is correct.

Its not a crime to burn your own house down, it becomes a crime when you try to claim the insurance. The fire marshal will probably keep his investigation open for awhile.

This is not (at least not where I live). Intentionally setting fire to a home, even if it is yours, is arson. Claiming the insurance would just add a second felony to your record.

 

[boo coo tracks]

I have been an adjuster for 20 years. If the property is financed the bank is an additional insured. The bank always gets paid.

I have an account with one insurance co. that writes a lot of bank repo houses. I get at least 1 vacant repo with fire damage a month in Memphis. There really isn't much that can cause a fire in a vacant house with no utilities except lightning or arson. Lots of vandalism damage to bathrooms to steal copper. $10K- 20K worth of damage for $10 worth of copper pipe. Stealing the a/c units is pretty popular.

Kinda scary sometimes going into a boarded up house by yourself with no back up. I do lock and load before entering. Sometimes I have to tell some hookers or crack heads to vacated the porch for a little while I'm there. Have had several ladies think I was looking for some action.

Thank you for your post. I don't blame you for L & L, bad stuff take seconds- back up takes minutes.
Stay Safe
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[NUTTSGT]

I f you start poking and prodding around on the burned out house next to yours, you're liable to do one thing. . . . . make yourself a person of suspicion. You may get called in for questioning.

Why ? Well some people don't like empty houses next to theirs. They love to buy the lot they sit on for extra yard.

 

[boo coo tracks]

I have been an adjuster for 20 years. If the property is financed the bank is an additional insured. The bank always gets paid.

I have an account with one insurance co. that writes a lot of bank repo houses. I get at least 1 vacant repo with fire damage a month in Memphis. There really isn't much that can cause a fire in a vacant house with no utilities except lightning or arson. Lots of vandalism damage to bathrooms to steal copper. $10K- 20K worth of damage for $10 worth of copper pipe. Stealing the a/c units is pretty popular.

Kinda scary sometimes going into a boarded up house by yourself with no back up. I do lock and load before entering. Sometimes I have to tell some hookers or crack heads to vacated the porch for a little while I'm there. Have had several ladies think I was looking for some action.

Thank you for your post. I don't blame you for L & L, bad stuff take seconds- back up takes minutes.
Stay Safe
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[D.J.]

I'd like to clear up some terms here, before going any further. We are talking about and incinderary fire. They only become an arson when someone is convicted of setting them. If you own a structure free and clear, no mortage. In the state of Illinois, You can burn anything you own. You may be charged with illegal burning. But you cannot be charged with a crime untill you sign the paperwork on the insurance claim. Then all bets are off and you committed a crime.

 

[SuperSocket]

I'd like to clear up some terms here, before going any further. We are talking about and incinderary fire. They only become an arson when someone is convicted of setting them. If you own a structure free and clear, no mortage. In the state of Illinois, You can burn anything you own. You may be charged with illegal burning. But you cannot be charged with a crime untill you sign the paperwork on the insurance claim. Then all bets are off and you committed a crime.

It is illegal to burn a house, not the act of burning a house but burning such a large fire and so close to other homes, the fire department would be called, which would add to the problem because they can be injured trying to fight your fire. Also, the materials you're burning would be a hazard so it's DEQ, EPA, and who knows what other alphabet agency violations.

You can however call the fire department and set up a drill with them, most are super happy if you torch the house and they run out there to do a training run.

 

[JohnK007]

You can however call the fire department and set up a drill with them, most are super happy if you torch the house and they run out there to do a training run.

I was a volunteer fireman back in the 70's and 80's. When I first started doing the above was a somewhat common occurrence. We used to call them "burn downs" and invited other fire dept in the area to come and participate. Great training even though there were some tragic accidents over the years when things got out of hand. None involving my dept but they did happen in the area. One nearby dept was doing a burn down and didn't realize that the home had a fuel oil tank in the basement. It was empty but still had fumes. The tank exploded and killed a fireman.
Then the EPA came along and put the kabosh on "burn downs". Couldn't do it without a permit for air quality reasons. We could still use the vacant structure for training, set off smoke grenades, use blacked out air pack masks, pretend to ventilate, but no actual burning. Nothing wrong with that kind of training but it just wasn't the same as actually putting water on fire.

 

[mngundog]

I was a volunteer fireman back in the 70's and 80's. When I first started doing the above was a somewhat common occurrence. We used to call them "burn downs" and invited other fire dept in the area to come and participate. Great training even though there were some tragic accidents over the years when things got out of hand. None involving my dept but they did happen in the area. One nearby dept was doing a burn down and didn't realize that the home had a fuel oil tank in the basement. It was empty but still had fumes. The tank exploded and killed a fireman.
Then the EPA came along and put the kabosh on "burn downs". Couldn't do it without a permit for air quality reasons. We could still use the vacant structure for training, set off smoke grenades, use blacked out air pack masks, pretend to ventilate, but no actual burning. Nothing wrong with that kind of training but it just wasn't the same as actually putting water on fire.

I believe they are still doing house burns. Shingles have to be removed and inspected for asbestos.

 

[PassnThru]

The worst part is that the "insurance company" is just a pool of money collected from ALL of us so WE are paying for arson. So for that reason, as well as lives endangered, arson of any kind is a concern for all of us.

Yes - insurance fraud just raises the rates for everyone. And arson is particularly nasty because the fire department has to respond. And fire fighting is not inherently risk free.

 

[weadjust]

One of the bad things about these vacant repos is lets say you have a 200K house that has 50K worth of fire damage. The bank gets the insurance payment and they are not going to repair the house. They apply the insurance money to the defaulted mortgage.

Now you have a vacant fired damaged repo for sale in your neighborhood with a very limited amount of people that would be willing to buy it. The house ends up sitting vacant for years deteriorating further and brings down the values in the neighborhood The bank could care less.