"Asian" made tools.....

[plinker]

I'm seeing a trend of of the phrase "Asian made" and I am pondering the issue.

If the quality is as good as anything made here, what price do you think it's worth?

As an example (I'm just guessing prices here), You can buy a pair of 10" Channellock pliers for around 10-12$, Knipex 9.5" for around 35$, and a pair made in Taiwan for, say 7.50$

If the quality is the same overall on the three pliers how much are they worth? Some debate the Knipex vs. Channellock in regards to price, value and quality, but why does something made in Germany command a premium over something made in the USA or Taiwan, If the quality is comparable? Is it just because it's made in Germany?

What I'm getting at is "Asian" made tools seem to have a stigma that they are suppoused to be dirt cheap no matter how good or bad they are.

The quality of the stuff coming from china varies alot quality wise , depending on who makes it and what it is. But I dont think it's fair to lump all tools made in Asia in the same boat. In my opinion, the stuff coming out of Taiwan in the last 10 to 15 years is pretty darn good. Is it because it's not proven? Nobody seems to diss the stuff made in Japan.

I realize that alot has to do with economics and political issues, but thats not what I'm getting at, if you follow me. There's always somewhere to have cheap ****/junk made, today china, tommorow ???, so thats not the issue.


For what it's worth, I buy USA made stuff if it's possible. I do go out of my way to buy "made in Taiwan" over "made in china" when possible if a domestic alternative is not available (or if I cant afford it).


*
This thread is not meant to pick on anyone or start a flaming war or other ****, I typed it just to satisfiy my inquisitive little mind.

 

[darkzero]

I do hear the term "Asian made tools" but IMO that's not an appropiate term to use when referring to quality. Sure most people expect tools from China to be **** but after all cost is a big factor of that. They can make good tools (don't want this to turn into one of those discussions).

I say not appropiate because Japan, Korea, Taiwan, India, & Pakistan would be part of "Asian made tools" although many would not think of India & Pakistan as Asian made tools. Some will argue that Taiwanese made tools are much better quality than China, this is very common for lathes & mills. I often hear that a lathe made in China is **** but if it's made in Taiwan it's ok.

Then there are tools made in India & Pakistan. People will say they are better made than China but still not that great.

Then there's made in Japan. For me Made in Japan can be just as good as Made in the USA & in many cases better or not so good.

Personally "Made in Asia" does not mean anything to me. Good tools can come from any of the mentioned countries & certainly there are **** tools that are made here in the US.

 

[american lockpicker]

I like Vietnamese and Japanese tools. With Japanese I expect to pay a premium price and have quality that exceeds American or European tools. With Vietnamese I expect it to be better than Chinese and I only buy stuff from there because of ideological reasons. Also I would be interested to know if North Korea makes tools and if they would be available for purchase.

 

[jmauld]

Many asian countries play with their currency so that it gives their manufacturers an advantage against manufacturers in other countries. Therefore, equivalent quality tools should be cheaper. If not, there's no reason to purchase them.

Not all asian countries are created equal though.

 

[kythri]

Then there are tools made in India & Pakistan. People will say they are better made than China but still not that great.

They do?

 

[american lockpicker]

Chinese tools are better than Indian.

 

[darkzero]

They do?

More often with tweezers, picks, & that sort of stuff. Even machinists tools.

"Don't get that, the India **** is better than the China ****"

For me, **** is **** no matter where it comes from.

Chinese tools are better than Indian.

I agree. China is better tooled & have more experience than India.

Occasionally you will see people marketing certain machinist tools made in India to be better than China.

I once bought a set of three tap wrenches causes I need one that weekend. Tried one, total piece of ****, didn't even bother to open the other two. Put them on ebay, stated Made in India, got my money back.

 

[Roots]

The issue is that in the contract manufacturing world, manufacturing is too a spec. Additionally, the quality controls are too a spec. Companies which choose to outsource manufacturing bid on both, and when both have a high standard there is often only a marginal discount on outsourced production. Which is IMO what's fueling the argument over Taiwanese tools having American prices. The Taiwanese manufacturing has allowed them to maintain the same product price lines, versus having to raise them.

 

[byoungblood]

The quality of the stuff coming from china varies alot quality wise

There is the problem with chicom tools. At the same time, the only reason why the production is being outsourced is to cut cost. So who is to say that they aren't cutting a few corners on quality while they are at it?

I know our government doesn't make it easy for manufacturers to stay here and still make a profit, but something doesn't have to be ultra expensive either to continue to be made here. It really comes down to these companies making the commitment to keep produciton here, even if it means that they can't mantain price parity with the likes of HF.

Of course the other part of the equation is the consumer. As I've found, it doesn't really cost much more to buy US made tools, particularly when you consider that most of the time they are of better quality and will likely last a lifetime vs having to replace a cheapo tool 4-5 times.

 

[kippieland]

I was just looking at some Genius tools that are all Taiwan tools and very nice. They also have a large sticker price on them. They may not be as expensive as the truck brand, but they were more then Cmans and more around the cost of Armstrong, SK, Proto, etc. Quality is better then Cmans and close to the above mentioned brands. Great tools, but if I am going to pay that much then I would rather pay for American tools. That doesn't mean I won't buy anything of theirs, it will just depend all the tool.

I get what your saying about the Asian thing....considering all my cars are from Asian (Japan) manufacturing ...though all were built in the US. Also, all my dirt bikes are from Japan as well. I do my best to stay away from Chinese tools and places that sell for cheap not quality. You will never find Genius tools at HF and I think the low-end brands have given Taiwan a bad name. I think tools from Taiwan started out cheap and now are not taken as serious...which could be a huge mistake. That being said, I try to support US brands to support US workers not the companies. IMO, we can't just buy things in this country, we have to make them as well. I think industrial tools are over looked to often. They are far cheaper price wise then the truck brands and are very close in quality. I think it comes down to quality vs price and what you value more.

 

[jk47]

The wages people actually get paid to make the tools plays a big part in the final price. Also experience, pride, and quality control add too the bottom line.

I prefer to buy tools from places with a history of quality and knowledge in metallurgy. Not all my tools are from such places, but it plays a big part in my decision to purchase.

One day when I make a trip to Europe, I will be coming back with my suitcase packed full of goodies

 

[jjjrmx5]

The issue is that in the contract manufacturing world, manufacturing is to a spec.

In "theory", that would end pretty much any arguement that what you are indeed buying what you are buying, even if the mfgr point or locale moved, is the same as what you were buying previously. In reality, unless rigourously tested, monitored and held accountable for, the ability to slowly add a lesser quality porduct for the same price has been the norm and std, not the anomoly.

If you don;'t see that, then you are indeed aloof.

Companies which choose to outsource manufacturing bid on both, and when both have a high standard there is often only a marginal discount on outsourced production. Which is IMO what's fueling the argument over Taiwanese tools having American prices. The Taiwanese manufacturing has allowed them to maintain the same product price lines, versus having to raise them.

I think that you can proclaim Taiwanese (still a PRC holding BTW) as "better". but I have yet to really see proof that is indeed what is claimed.

A good and studious mfgr will ensure and maintain a supply chain and quality that is seamless and best suits the needs of the company.
Those that wish to "**** and pillage" or "mislead" and move on in the tool mfgr world are less than clear with their COO an tool origins.

If looked at as tires, all of them are round and black, but in reality there is a HUGE disparity between good, acceptable and just plain old dangerous. But they all look the same until you dig deeper.

 

[MD11]

In my humble view and thru my experience..

in terms of "Asian" made..

Japan > Taiwan > S. Korea > Thailand > China > Vietnam
(Singapore and Hong Kong, both were once major manufacturing areas, but no longer)

It's especially frustrating when people conflate Taiwan with China as there is little similarity in their manufacturing capability.

milage may very, but that's been my experience.

Pakistan is making a lot of steel tools, scissors etc.. but nothing I have to own.. I'd prefer my Italian sheers anyway.

 

[shoturtle]

Depending on the tools, the taiwan tools are as good as US and EU tools. As they make excellent tools. Proxxon are high quality tools just as good as any US snap on tool. And command close to the price of a high end snap on as well. And like others have said the japanese makes excellent tools. So allot of the Asian tools are high quality tools, if you take it as whole.

You really need to break them down to Taiwan, Chinese, Japanese, Korean and so on. And take each countries tool on a case by case bases.

 

[american lockpicker]

Not all proxxon is made in Taiwan. My stuff is made in Luxemberg and Germany.

 

[shoturtle]

The proxxon are good tools, really nice. Funny thing is the proxxon adjustable is the same as the bluepoint adjustable from snap on. Both are made in taiwan and are both very pricey.

 

[jjjrmx5]

on the tools, the taiwan tools are as good as US and EU tools.

Pontificate all you want, but there is still no or very few, if any mfgr statements to prove that statement true. Thus thus it's suspect and subjective.

You really need to break them down to Taiwan, Chinese, Japanese, Korean and so on. And take each countries tool on a case by case bases.

Agreed.

But again, no solid premise or grounds to base a solid study on.

As long as the mfrgs keep stirring the couldron of tools with "iffy" bits and not mentioning their origins, it's a cesspool of ^&*t.

Caveat emptor.

 

[plinker]

You really need to break them down to Taiwan, Chinese, Japanese, Korean and so on. And take each countries tool on a case by case bases.

In a round about way, this was my point. I like specificty when dealing with product origin

I think that you can proclaim Taiwanese (still a PRC holding BTW) as "better". but I have yet to really see proof that is indeed what is claimed.

They may techinally be a "PRC holding" but from what I know, they are more or less thier own country known as the "republic of china", Not "the peoples republic of china" ( the "peoples" part means communist for those who dont know). For all I know you may be wrong or you may be right ( I'm curious now, so research time for me).

I dont know about the proof part but, My Dad borrowed my Toptul 14mm hex bit socket in 1/2 drive to use on a 3/4 drive torque wrench to tighten around 15-20 socket screws to 310 ft lbs, and it didnt break.

(Shrugs)



My lateset endevor is looking at 3/8 drive impact extensions.

An S-K set of three (3", 6", 10") is 31$ at Tooltopia, a Sunex set with those sizes plus a 15" is 33$ (18.99 for just the 15" ext.)

What I would do is buy the S-K set and wait until the local Napa store has a tool sale and get the 15" rebadged Sunex extension from there.

Then I'm supporting S-K who is staying American made, and my Local Napa store (and staying withen budget).

 

[shoturtle]

The first point is kind of provable. Snap On bluepoint adjustable are excellent tools, it is also the same one that proxxon sells. They are made in taiwan. Also look at the kolbolt form Lowes vs the US made craftsmen. They are on par with them with their starter kits, and some parts are better, like the ratchets.

I am not saying they meet the US snap on or the Germany Proxxon high end. But they are on par in the basic and mid level tool. Not everyone needs a US snap on quality tool. But want something that matches up against US craftsmen tools. And give Lowes credit, they stamp taiwan on many of their kolbolt tools.

 

[plinker]

And give Lowes credit, they stamp taiwan on many of their kolbolt tools.

I wish more companys would stamp thier tools like that.

 

[dieselmike]

rich chinese people own most of the factories in vietnam, and pay lower wages than china, and tend to employ children

Japan>Thailand>Korea>Indonesia

i dont buy tools from any other asian countries. ive been to these countries, as well as other countries that manufacture, and i base my decisions on personal experience in the country, with the tools, political and ideological reasons.

 

[shoturtle]

Taiwan is not the PRC. They might not be recognized as a country. But they are their thing. They may do business with PRC now. But they do not have the same business practice or political ideology. And last but not least, they do not pay taxes to PRC, so they are not the PRC.

 

[shoturtle]

Outsourced is outsourcing again.

rich chinese people own most of the factories in vietnam, and pay lower wages than china, and tend to employ children

Japan>Thailand>Korea>Indonesia

i dont buy tools from any other asian countries. ive been to these countries, as well as other countries that manufacture, and i base my decisions on personal experience in the country, with the tools, political and ideological reasons.

 

[plung]

What tools are made in Vietnam? Never seen that before.

 

[american lockpicker]

Now if I could just find some tools from Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea...

 

[MD11]

What tools are made in Vietnam? Never seen that before.

Spend some time at a harbor freight and look at COO on everything. You'll find it.

 

[american lockpicker]

Spend some time at a harbor freight and look at COO on everything. You'll find it.

Like what?

 

[plung]

I only go to HF every few years so that's why I probably never seen it.

 

[plinker]

Here's something you wont find at Harbor freight.....

 

[american lockpicker]

Yes as soon as you get rid of the communists then capitalists can start screwing over the workers here, cheapening the products but raising prices and everyones favourite outsourcing.

 

[american lockpicker]

At least DPRK cares about production while our gov is busy giving tax credits for outsourcing....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=xYl9_E5B1gA

 

[Monte]

even coffee is from Asia now

 

[american lockpicker]

Why Taiwanese when you can have Swedish...

 

[Monte]

Why Swedish when you can have Swiss

 

[MD11]

Here's my heirarchy of Asian products:
Japan->Korea->Taiwan

oddly the Koreans don't seem to make a lot of tools, that I can find at least, but in general Korea makes "good stuff" when they do make precision machinery (their cars now are a good example of this).

But Japan is an order of magnitude better workmanship than any other Asian country. And as much as I hate made in China, I have no problem buying Made in Taiwan however, as a) the quality is usually far better, and b)the political situation there makes it so I'm not supporting a government that is oppressive to it's workers and labor.

I try to avoid Chinese products unless they're a good bargain and well made. My HF toolbox is an example.

As do I... as a matter of fact, I live by the rule "Don't buy made in China, unless it's the ONLY choice."

Today I was wearing 100% US and Canadian made clothing, with the sole exception of my underpants which were made in Bangladesh (go figure).. if anyone knows a good boxer underware made in the US or another 1st world country, feel free to share it!

 

[plinker]

I wonder if Daewoo makes tools. They make everything else, From can openers to track excavators, electronics and rifles .

 

[american lockpicker]

Why Swedish when you can have Swiss

You win. Theres no way I can top that.

 

[OUTRIGGER]

Back to "Asian" made tools..... it is the same with vehicle springs or ships hulls - if the manufacturer has access to and uses quality steel grades - then that is the starting point (providing they also have competent heat-treatment where required)..

I know of a firm that spent 6 months establishing a press-shop in China , they pulled out because the Japanese manufacturer of a special steel strip that was required ,refused to export it direct to china.

 

[shoturtle]

Allot of companies are starting to go final assembly in other asia countries rather then china. The just buys certain parts form china and have it ship to taiwan, thailand, korea, or any other country. They do not want piracy of their intellectual properties if they did finally assembly with patented components in china.

Sennsheiser no longer do final assembly of their high end products in china. They were burn by piracy form china. They will still buy parts from china.

And back to the vietnam tools, the chinese may own part of the factories there. But it is against Vietnam law to allow a none vietnamese to own a business solely. That may be one reason why china and vietnam is having a little rift right now.

 

[MD11]

Sennsheiser no longer do final assembly of their high end products in china. They were burn by piracy form china. They will still buy parts from china.

Frankly if a company like Sennsheiser wants to make their high end products in China, they deserve to have them ripped off! Because when I pay $1200 for a 441U microphone, I expect that microphone to be 99% made in Germany of Germany parts!!