Asphalt contractor created new drainage problem

[pr3dict]

Half my driveway is paved and while it does grade away from the house it also grades back from the street to towards the back of my driveway...

It used to create a huge puddle.

That was before.

I just had a contractor come that said he could pave the gravel part of my driveway and for 24% more then a competitor he had this idea to cut the paved part of my driveway and regrade just the cut part and then repave it. He said that this would solve my drainage problem and no more puddles...

Well that didnt happen. I'm not expert so even though I questioned this method he advised it would work so I let him cut the driveway. Anyway all it did was make a new puddle where the cut is. Also now that the cut are had a seam that was just a LITTLE bit higher then the old driveway it now created this weird slanted water stream that goes diagonally across my driveway and then to the new puddle and another stream going to where the old puddle was. So essentially while the puddle is not as big, its now spread across a larger area...

The contractor started going back on his word and tried to play salesman and say oh atleast the puddle isnt as big. But now I have a huge seam and the problem isnt solved.

His new idea, which he is coming back to figure out, is to basically create a channel in the asphalt to solve the problem.

I'm thinking the only solution is to regrade the whole driveway. I paid him $3000 of a $7800 job for what he has done so far which is fair considering the ~ 2000sqft of driveway he has done but I'm considering telling him to either redo the whole "Main driveway" again or to take a hike.

Thoughts?

 

[DGersic]

Water runs downhill. If the water isn’t going where you want, you need to make it so that where you want it to go is downhill from where it is.

 

[jack stand]

If I understand the pictures, it looks like he's got the water coming off the driveway but it's not percolating into the ground and forming a puddle. If he's coming back, I'd say he's looking for a solution to your problem and is a "good guy".
Was this rain a heavy one?
Grading that slope/swale or some drain tile looks like the solution.

 

[pr3dict]

He's coming back because I only paid him for 40% of the job. He also broke a light on my garage and didn't tell me until I brought it up as he was about to drive away (I wanted to see if he would. And he knew about it as my security cameras caught him looking at it a few times and he was rolling the underlayment)

Anyway, it's not coming off the driveway because as poster number two said it's not graded correctly. From the collection point to where it needs to go is only a difference of about 3 and a half inches. Which is less then 1 percent. They need to make the whole driveway higher.

 

[firebirdparts]

You should be able to understand water and grading.

Once in a while it can surprise you a tiny bit, like following a channel or groove can happen, as much as the channel can carry, even if the grade is overwhelmingly away from the channel.

No amount of concrete is going to make that water go uphill into your grass.

If you want the entire driveway higher, bring plenty of money and don’t get it higher than the garage.

 

[Bent Handle]

Agreed, it appears grading the surrounding lawn would be the solution. It’s stuck on the driveway because the ground is in the way, not because it’s not flowing to the edge.

 

[finn]

Either your house and garage are too low, or your lawn is too high.

the driveway is fine,

seems like you have some lawn work to do to provide a place for the water to drain to.

 

[CraigStu]

It looks to me like rather than making the driveway higher you need to make the grass lower. In the first picture I think the puddle is on the macadam right? It is there because it would need to go uphill on the grass to get off the driveway.

 

[jar944]

Fix your yard.

 

[pr3dict]

So if we were looking at this in a plane. The driveway grades away from the house and back towards the back of my lawn. The grade away from the house towards the side lawn is more severe then it is back towards the backyard lawn..

So the water travels towards that side lawn hits the wall of lawn and then starts making its way back towards the backyard and then hits the lawn which is all clay and takes forever to drain...

NOW that the contractor added that little lip of asphalt it doesnt hit the lawn anymore away from the house it hits the channel they made but the grade is less then 1% back towards the lawn. AND where they cut my old driveway and repaved a portion it now created a lip so water pools up in the middle of my driveway where you see in the 2nd picture instead of the back portion of my driveway.

They just came, and left, because while I offered to pay them an additional $1000 on top of the original $6760, they wouldnt repave the entire "original" driveway to ensure it was graded correctly and fix the problem. So essentially I offered to pay them $8760 for roughly 4400sqft of work. Which is ~$2.00 a sqft. Instead they walked away from the project after I paid them $3000 for ~2400sqft so $1.25 a sqft.

Crazy enough I never had a contract for any of this and I paid on a credit card for the $3000. While that is a great deal for the 2400sqft they originally said they did. It also created a new problem that is definitely going to cost me another $6000 to fix. I'm just called another paving company to come give a quote to fix it and if it is that high I might consider a chargeback but I realize that is really screwing over the original contractor, they did leave me with a new, larger problem. Oh and they broke my garage light.

 

[pr3dict]

These pictures may help explain the problem better...

 

[dougf]

How about a catch basin and corrugated pipe undergound to take the pooling water away? Thats the way I would go with this, if I didnt regrade my yard. Not the contractors job to fix your yard or work around poor grading IMO.

 

[pr3dict]

How about a catch basin and corrugated pipe undergound to take the pooling water away? Thats the way I would go with this, if I didnt regrade my yard. Not the contractors job to fix your yard or work around poor grading IMO.

I had a quote for $3500 to have a pipe installed that would take the water away but that was BEFORE this driveway contractor did this work. Now there is no single low point. There is a channel that is fairly level so no catch basin will help without redoing the driveway.

Also it is their responsibility if that was their value sell vs the competitor. Remember this contractor was 25% more then the competitor because they said they would solve the water issue. Now it's worse and they walked off the job.

Essentially It's the same as if I went in to a shop to make my car faster. They recommend to have a turbo installed on my car to make it go faster for $500. But after the install they come back and tell me hey sorry but we realize that now that we did this your car is too heavy and we need to upgrade all your suspension before you can take it. Oh that'll also cost another $500. Oh you don't want to pay that well you can take your car back but it won't go faster it'll actually be slower now and it's going to be more dangerous.

 

[Cairo94507]

Don't give him a cent more and find another paver to resolve the problem.

 

[pr3dict]

Don't give him a cent more and find another paver to resolve the problem.

I guess I should update my original question since it has developed... I'm fairly certain to fix this issue its going to cost ~$6,000. That plus the original $3000 I gave is in for $9000 to fix a problem I should have had resolved for the original $6760 we discussed...

So since I dont have a contract and I used a credit card, anyone been successful at making an enemy and getting your money back doing a chargeback?

Funny enough I just got an email with the contract from their admin team. They want me to sign it now hahahhahahahahahhahahhahahahahhahahahahahahaha.

 

[gmcgeo]

sounds like you needed a pro to fix a drainage problem but hired an asphalt man instead

 

[pr3dict]

Lol guys its not that big of a deal to fix a pitch based drainage problem. Literally is based on basic geometry. The asphalt guy should have easily been able to do this.

 

[jar944]

Lol guys its not that big of a deal to fix a pitch based drainage problem. Literally is based on basic geometry. The asphalt guy should have easily been able to do this.

Not without tearing out your current driveway and regrading it and likely the yard.

 

[gmcgeo]

Lol guys its not that big of a deal to fix a pitch based drainage problem. Literally is based on basic geometry. The asphalt guy should have easily been able to do this.

by what i am reading, you should be able to tackle this project. good luck

 

[pr3dict]

Not without tearing out your current driveway and regrading it and likely the yard.

I don't disagree with that but even an "asphalt guy" should have realized that before making a promise he couldn't keep.

by what i am reading, you should be able to tackle this project. good luck

I appreciate the passive aggressive non answer to my question. I never stated that I didn't know what the problem was or the solution. My question always centralized around how to deal with a contractor that overpromised and underdelivered.

Since when did this place become so defensive of contractors that don't live up to their contract lol. It seems this entire thread has been people bashing me for accepting a supposedly experts proposal to fix an issue and then it didnt work. Obviously I'm going to be upset?

 

[Zeke]

IDT posters are defending the contractor. But they are being realistic. There seems to be a lack of communication somewhere. You said the contractor would pave over some gravel. Where was this gravel?

I think I see that the contractor created a swale to move the water from one puddle to now another. Probably an exercise in futility.

Due to the fact that the problem didn't get resolved and communication may have been at some fault, I hope you can sit down with the contractor and get him to peacefully walk away. This is going to get more expensive for both of you if you don't.

Meanwhile, get a survey done. I doesn't have to be formal or fancy, just something to show topography so a proper plan can be made.

 

[jack stand]

Again, as "tight" as your grade appears to be in the picture you probably should have hired a very big league paving contractor equipped with laser guided equipment, a huge office and fleet not to mention 1 or 2 Forman and field supervisors for you're little job. That's how they roll. They'd make that water come out for 2 or 3 times your estimate. But shame on him for not fessing up to the silly lamp. He probably could tell where this was "going".

 

[pr3dict]

Yeah he was not smiling

But shame on him for not fessing up to the silly lamp. He probably could tell where this was "going".

 

[gmcgeo]

I don't disagree with that but even an "asphalt guy" should have realized that before making a promise he couldn't keep.



I appreciate the passive aggressive non answer to my question. I never stated that I didn't know what the problem was or the solution. My question always centralized around how to deal with a contractor that overpromised and underdelivered.

Since when did this place become so defensive of contractors that don't live up to their contract lol. It seems this entire thread has been people bashing me for accepting a supposedly experts proposal to fix an issue and then it didnt work. Obviously I'm going to be upset?

you make this seems to be some very very easy fix, however it has not been fixed yet. i stated that you seem to know simple geometry, so you should be able to fix it.

everyone has given you clear direction, its your yard not the driveway. basic geometry.

The fact he damaged your property, well he should have fixed and or paid for it.

"Funny enough I just got an email with the contract from their admin team. They want me to sign it now hahahhahahahahahhahahhahahahahhahahahahahahaha." Now this comment... i dont think its funny.

you both could work through this and try to work something out. maybe thats not paying in full? maybe that is getting him do find a solution to the problem, where both of you are happy with it.


The fact is that the drive way is not the problem "yes he should have not said he could fix it" you both need to figure that one out.

but the ones stating that the yard will need looked at, these ones are correct.

If you want the water to go elsewhere i suggest finding someone who deals in drainage.


Again, i wish you luck in this and i hope you are able to find a solution to the problem.

 

[Garcky]

Well, I think you're going to have to find some place for that water to go, frankly. The lawn is higher than the driveway, so it pools up on the driveway and at the end of the driveway. It's not a simple matter of applying more paving, really.

Find the low spots where the water is pooling. Get a backhoe in there and dig a trench alongside the paving by the lawn, and then backfill that with gravel. Give the water a place to go that's lower than the driveway grade, and it will go there. Give it a way to drain, and it will drain. Your site's topography is the problem and asphalt paving isn't the solution. You have to find a way to drain the water alongside the driveway. Gravel works great, and it's relatively cheap.

Frankly, it's not that much water, really. I'd just ignore it, to tell you the truth.

 

[pr3dict]

you make this seems to be some very very easy fix, however it has not been fixed yet. i stated that you seem to know simple geometry, so you should be able to fix it.

everyone has given you clear direction, its your yard not the driveway. basic geometry.

The fact he damaged your property, well he should have fixed and or paid for it.

"Funny enough I just got an email with the contract from their admin team. They want me to sign it now hahahhahahahahahhahahhahahahahhahahahahahahaha." Now this comment... i dont think its funny.

you both could work through this and try to work something out. maybe thats not paying in full? maybe that is getting him do find a solution to the problem, where both of you are happy with it.


The fact is that the drive way is not the problem "yes he should have not said he could fix it" you both need to figure that one out.

but the ones stating that the yard will need looked at, these ones are correct.

If you want the water to go elsewhere i suggest finding someone who deals in drainage.


Again, i wish you luck in this and i hope you are able to find a solution to the problem.

I appreciate that answer a lot more then the original one. Thank you.

 

[MeanGene427]

Let me start by saying that I started paving in 1970, was a foreman by 1975, and was a foreman for one of the largest general engineering contractors in the Bay Area for quite a while (among others) building freeways, industrial parks, subdivisions, airport runways etc. Also been an estimator/ project manager. General rules of thumb, schidt and water run downhill- takes different slopes to make things work. Concrete flatwork is usually designed around approx. 1% slope, while asphalt concrete should be 2% minimum, as AC doesn't lay as perfectly as concrete and needs a little more help. Pipes have their own specs for drainage. When the original driveway (and house) was built, the total fall to the destination (the street, catch basins or landscape areas) should have been considered as percents of slope. If the house/ garage isn't high enough relative to the destination, you need alternate ways to provide drainage, catch basins, pipes etc.- that still need to outflow somewhere. If that figure is OK, something is wrong in the grading of the driveway, humps or just plain poor grade control. These days most any contractor has a simple laser level that sets up in 10 minutes, some only shoot "level" and more expensive models can be programmed to directly shoot percents of slope. If the paver did not "shoot" it and calculate it out before promising he could fix it, he's not very good at this. If you can find a friend or another contractor to come out and shoot it with you and show how it can work, you should do so- and valid paver should be willing to do that if he wants to get your work. As an estimator, I always carried a small laser in the truck to avoid getting in situations like this, i.e. promising things you can't deliver. A drawing should be done with all the grade points that you can understand, and realize why it isn't working, and then you'll know if or how it can be fixed. If the original guy is unwilling or unable to do this, send him down the road. Also, that joint where it was cut was very poorly done, looks like the new asphalt was laid too high and that's why there's a puddle. We always carried a 4' level or a digital Smart Level to confirm drainage while raking, before rolling it. On freeway jobs we had to hold grade flat and at correct grade, checked with 20' magnesium straight edge. Looks like you paid a premium for poor work, unfortunately. Check the grades with someone trustworthy who knows how before doing anything else

 

[Wolley]

Looks like a typical free balling pave job. I watched my neighbors driveway get paved. No builders level or laser, just eye ball raked smooth base and asphalt on top.

 

[whateg01]

Sounds like he walked away from what he sees as a job that either he can't really do, or he figures you're going to be a PITA no matter what and would rather cut his losses.

 

[pr3dict]

Sounds like he walked away from what he sees as a job that either he can't really do, or he figures you're going to be a PITA no matter what and would rather cut his losses.

This right here... The problem is one of his workers which I think really owns the company gave the estimate and instead of saying, "**** we didnt estimate this correctly, my fault I'll fix it or sorry I cant fix it but to save face here is your money back" It was, denial denial denial give me more money to fix the problem I created.

 

[weadjust]

I paid him $3000 of a $7800 job for what he has done so far which is fair considering the ~ 2000sqft of driveway he has done but I'm considering telling him to either redo the whole "Main driveway" again or to take a hike.

Thoughts?

He will most likely hike down to the court house and file a mechanics lien on your house

 

[pr3dict]

He will most likely hike down to the court house and file a mechanics lien on your house

You must work for the asphalt company. Or you didn't read the whole thread before posting.

Thanks for your response.

 

[weadjust]

You must work for the asphalt company. Or you didn't read the whole thread before posting.

Thanks for your response.

I did read the whole thread and I don't work for the asphalt company. You posted you may do a charge back on your credit card and not pay him anything. Placing a lien on your property is pretty easy to do by the contractor if he's not paid. You're free to do what you want but the contractor has the mechanic lien in his back pocket if he wants to play that card.

 

[pr3dict]

I did read the whole thread and I don't work for the asphalt company. You posted you may do a charge back on your credit card and not pay him anything. Placing a lien on your property is pretty easy to do by the contractor if he's not paid. You're free to do what you want but the contractor has the mechanic lien in his back pocket if he wants to play that card.

Ah well thank you for clarifying. I am 100% considering a chargeback. That will depend on the quote I receive to fix their error that they left. I attempted to give them a chance to fix the issue. They were not happy to do it for the original amount of money quoted. I even offered to give them MORE money to fix the issue that again, they made worse. They also broke my light on my property that is on video. After all that they did not accept my offer for a resolution which would have enabled them to make more money per square foot then just leaving before completing the job.

So yes Chargeback is a possibility.

In terms of your construction lien, as it is called in New Jersey. A signed written contract, is required to file one. So unless they are going to commit fraud and forge my signature, no lien is coming my way.

 

[weadjust]

In terms of your construction lien, as it is called in New Jersey. A signed written contract, is required to file one. So unless they are going to commit fraud and forge my signature, no lien is coming my way.

Mechanic lien card removed from his back pocket

 

[BombShelter]

I deal with issues like this all the time, it's not as easy as it looks. It looks like the low spot for the yard is where the water is pooling. It also looks like the garage downspout is draining right at the front right corner and that's contributing a concentrated stream of water (I'd guess 300+ gallons for every inch of water), all heading towards that low spot.

If the garage is not higher than the where the drainage was originally intended to go, it's very difficult to get the water moving away, even if you put in a new driveway that might be even lower. The photos you provide are very confusing, I can't get an orientation with them, maybe a hand drawing with the slope arrowed out will help.

I was going to mention about the signed written contract but you just posted before I could get it in. Never trust a contractor that doesn't bullet-point the work he'll perform, if it's not written down, it might not happen.

 

[pr3dict]

I deal with issues like this all the time, it's not as easy as it looks. It looks like the low spot for the yard is where the water is pooling. It also looks like the garage downspout is draining right at the front right corner and that's contributing a concentrated stream of water (I'd guess 300+ gallons for every inch of water), all heading towards that low spot.

If the garage is not higher than the where the drainage was originally intended to go, it's very difficult to get the water moving away, even if you put in a new driveway that might be even lower. The photos you provide are very confusing, I can't get an orientation with them, maybe a hand drawing with the slope arrowed out will help.

I was going to mention about the signed written contract but you just posted before I could get it in. Never trust a contractor that doesn't bullet-point the work he'll perform, if it's not written down, it might not happen.

Ok here is the survey... This is an old one so it's not 100% right but its close enough... The gravel part that says gravel on the survey is actually been paved years ago.



Now after paving the back gravel part this is the issue...




But something you cant see on the survey but is on the pictures is that before the low point was where the dirt/grass met the asphalt and gravel. NOW the low point where water collects is in a channel that was created out of asphalt, which is not draining. It's been sitting here all day with still water just standing. I had to use a sump pump to get water out of it and its still got a puddle hanging out.

 

[kinglake]

Ah well thank you for clarifying. I am 100% considering a chargeback. That will depend on the quote I receive to fix their error that they left. I attempted to give them a chance to fix the issue. They were not happy to do it for the original amount of money quoted. I even offered to give them MORE money to fix the issue that again, they made worse. They also broke my light on my property that is on video. After all that they did not accept my offer for a resolution which would have enabled them to make more money per square foot then just leaving before completing the job.

So yes Chargeback is a possibility.

In terms of your construction lien, as it is called in New Jersey. A signed written contract, is required to file one. So unless they are going to commit fraud and forge my signature, no lien is coming my way.

So he paved all your remaining gravel driveway but yet you think it is okay to do a chargeback on the amount you paid?

From your own post above, you haven't even paid half of the bill. I personally think it pretty sorry of you to do a chargeback. You got your driveway paved and haven't even paid half the cost.

In addition, as stated many of times above, a lot of this is on you.

 

[Blue]

I get all sides of this, but it seems like there needs to be a dose of reality too.

In a perfect world, you would have had a contract, with all the work spelled out.

In the real world, guys working these kinds of small jobs often aren't that adept at putting together detailed contracts. And the guys who are good at putting together good, solid contracts aren't going to bother with you unless you have a lot of work, a lot of money, or both.

Doing work like this, with a contractor like this, is a bit like a marriage. You are both stuck in it now, and you've hit a low point (figuratively, as well as literally). You can scream all you want at the guy, but guarantee you'll get better results by trying to work with him. You have to assume the guy didn't start the job with malicious intent, as in, he didn't take the job thinking "Oh boy, I'm gonna screw this customer!"

If this guy can't make it right, then try to come to an amicable conclusion on the bill, and send him on his way. Chalk it up to a life lesson.

 

[pr3dict]

So he paved all your remaining gravel driveway but yet you think it is okay to do a chargeback on the amount you paid?

From your own post above, you haven't even paid half of the bill. I personally think it pretty sorry of you to do a chargeback. You got your driveway paved and haven't even paid half the cost.

In addition, as stated many of times above, a lot of this is on you.

I do feel bad but at the same time Im in business. I understand when I make a mistake and it may cost me money its a cost of doing business. Especially if after I do something that makes my clients worse off then what they came in for. Again go back to the car analogy.

It's the same as if I went in to a shop to make my car faster. They recommend to have a turbo installed on my car to make it go faster for $500. But after the install they come back and tell me hey sorry but we realize that now that we did this your car is too heavy and we need to upgrade all your suspension before you can take it. Oh that'll also cost another $500. Oh you don't want to pay that well you can take your car back but it won't go faster it'll actually be slower now and it's going to be more dangerous.​

​

Do I pay for the turbo even though now I need that same $500 to now upgrade my suspension to accommodate the said turbo that the EXPERT told me would be fine? Having a business is not for children. People need to take responsibility and understand the risks of what they do.​

Back to our real scenario... I received a product that now has given me a paved driveway but has now also given me a worse water problem then I had before and a dangerous one at that, more ice, less curb appeal from the giant saw cut they did that they did not blend (because it would have made the problem worse) and this sitting water is probably going to cause larger issues down the road.

So, they have FORCED me to spend more money to fix the issue THEY created. None of this is my fault. They own a business, they offered services, their services made 1 thing better and hurt something else. That hurt has a cost. I can pay them the full amount and sue them for damages or I can do a chargeback and use the money allocated for the original project so fix the new problem they created.