Asphalt contractor created new drainage problem
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I been around the block a few times. I got stories for days.
Where does it look like that? Can you quote somewhere that said I wasnt willing to pay for agreed upon work? If you would have read I actually was paying almost 25% more for this contractor then the previous one because of their promised work. Hah I never even asked to negotiate. I got 2 quotes not even 3 to play against each other. Do good work get my money. Do bad work, dont get my money. It's simple.
If you look at my post history I dont ever claim to want any contractor to not pay for their time and I have no problem buying my own equipment to do my own work when it is feasible.
Thanks for your wisdom.
I don't think there's anything paving wise that can be done. A shovel to start digging out that grass and dirt, on the other hand...
I'd have been happy with the original TBH. Water can't hurt me and if it's snow it's relatively flat for plowing and then tossing salt for ice.
I'd have been happy with the original TBH. Water can't hurt me and if it's snow it's relatively flat for plowing and then tossing salt for ice.
Thanks, it seems that is the consensus. I've been out there lasering it today and if I had the whole driveway regraded it would only be a 1.04% grade if everything is done perfectly. I have two new contractors coming to see if they could potentially lower the lowest point further to widen that gap. 1.04% does not leave any room for error.
I get where you're coming from on this. You expect to cut a check and walk out to a finished project, which was to include complete drainage. It didn't happen. You have some or most of the project but not all of it.
I just disagree with you not paying at all/charging back the payment because you do have a surface to your garage and a collection point for the water.
The path forward depends on what the contractors come back with a cost to the new problem. I originally was going to pay $7700 roughly to have gravel paved AND fix the drainage issue. The proposed solution to just my drainage problem was $3500 by putting a pipe in.
I've paid $3000 so far as a sign of good faith after seeing that the now paved surface did not fix the drainage issue but they they would come back to fix that.
They came back and said we cant fix it for $7700. I offered to pay an additional $1000 to make it $8800 to fix the issue because even though I think they should have fixed it for the original price we agreed upon (That is their responsibility) I understand business and mistakes and was trying to be compassionate to them EVEN THOUGH THATS NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY AS A CONSUMER. They still disagreed and decided to walk off with just $3000.
So now I have a paved driveway but I have a WORSE water problem then I did before. So my point on not paying comes down to what the new cost to fix will be. If I get an estimate to fix this new issue and it's $6000 or $7000 then I'm going to be in for $9000 or $10,000 when originally I was only supposed to be in for $7700. So If that's the case I'm sticking to my original number that I should have been in and thats the chargeback reason. I gave htem the opportunity to fix their mistake but they declined.
Now, if the estimate comes back and it's only $3000-4000 then sure I will call it a wash and wont charge back anything.
Leaving it the way it is is not an option and I should not have to bear the cost of fixing their bad business decision.
Zeke
Well-known member
I likely wrongly believe that: Consumers should be allowed to hurt themselves. OP, perhaps you didn't have a lawn dart accident? However:
Please explain the bridge and the boats example again that you quoted and highlighted above:
Where you state the only solution is to rebuild the bridge or 'trench out below it'? I don't follow this.
How is this accomplished? How are the boats now able to pass under the bridge by trenching below? Doesn't the water level under this bridge have something to do with the ability for boats to pass under?
These are my thoughts. Can you explain yours with respect to the above bridge project?
Good luck,
John McA
Please explain the bridge and the boats example again that you quoted and highlighted above:
Where you state the only solution is to rebuild the bridge or 'trench out below it'? I don't follow this.
How is this accomplished? How are the boats now able to pass under the bridge by trenching below? Doesn't the water level under this bridge have something to do with the ability for boats to pass under?
These are my thoughts. Can you explain yours with respect to the above bridge project?
Good luck,
John McA
Zeke
Well-known member
Like you said, good luck.
Looks like they offer the above services. Where do they offer professional engineering services? You hired a paving company and now expect engineering services.
Good question. I was thinking more of dredging but I guess a channel lock system but be the real solution to lower the water level.
This example applies to my situation in that the SOW for the example had two deliverables for agreed upon price:
- Move cars from one side of body of water to the other
- Allow boats to go under the structure that is built
- Will Pay $1,000,000 for the above solution
I don't think it's fair to pay for the orginal $1,000,000 bridge if it doesnt accomplish the original goals and requires more money to be spent over budget. The budget has a cap and that is that. No going over. So who doesnt get paid? The people that originally had 2 deliverbales and did not deliver.
My situation is the same. Agreed upon price ~$7000 for two deliverables. only one was done. I still need to have the other one done. Budget doesnt change. So who doesnt get paid? The original contractor that did not deliver the two deliverables that was agreed upon. It's simple business economics 101.
Both the example and my situation leaves us in a worse place then before. Even though I have paved driveway going back. The solution will probably be more money because the driveway that was originally there must now be destroyed and that material hauled away. Whereas the original job was just adding material.
whateg01
Well-known member
Air conditioner isn't really the best example to use. Certification to purchase the refrigerant isn't something the average diy is going to do. You can buy a pre-charged mini-split and install it yourself but that's a slightly different use case.
I most always say good luck at the end of my posts.Like you said, good luck.
I didn't mean it to be taken that way.
Kinda works to my point though. If I was to buy a compressor and air handler and install myself then try to hire an AC company that is "licensed to add refrigerant" they may or may not do the work, I guess depends on how busy they are, etc... But for a Manufacturer to not even give us that option is just bad for consumers. In the business I'm in I am constantly working to find the balance on how everyone that interacts with our company benefits. The shareholders, employees, the firm itself, our suppliers, our value added resellers, AND the end users. Sometimes the different players are at odds with each other and it is a balancing act. Some industries and companies do this balancing act better then others.
Good question. I was thinking more of dredging but I guess a channel lock system but be the real solution to lower the water level.
This example applies to my situation in that the SOW for the example had two deliverables for agreed upon price:
^^^^ In example above. The structure allows cars to go over it but does not allow boats to go under. The proposed solution is to rebuild the bridge. For another $1,000,000 (Which would bring the new project to $2,000,000 if every contractor gets paid). OR Build a channel lock like above for let's say $500,000 (Bringing the new cost of project to $1,500,000).
- Move cars from one side of body of water to the other
- Allow boats to go under the structure that is built
- Will Pay $1,000,000 for the above solution
I don't think it's fair to pay for the orginal $1,000,000 bridge if it doesnt accomplish the original goals and requires more money to be spent over budget. The budget has a cap and that is that. No going over. So who doesnt get paid? The people that originally had 2 deliverbales and did not deliver.
My situation is the same. Agreed upon price ~$7000 for two deliverables. only one was done. I still need to have the other one done. Budget doesnt change. So who doesnt get paid? The original contractor that did not deliver the two deliverables that was agreed upon. It's simple business economics 101.
Both the example and my situation leaves us in a worse place then before. Even though I have paved driveway going back. The solution will probably be more money because the driveway that was originally there must now be destroyed and that material hauled away. Whereas the original job was just adding material.
Nice: Move the goal post much? No mention of canals in your example. If there was: Why was a bridge required? Why no tunnel solution? Ferry? This just serves to show: If you put as much thought (and illustrations!) into attempting to answer my question about your bridge example as opposed to coherently discribing your driveway project scope, entering into a proper contract, you might have had a slight chance of more success with this project.
But. Noooo!
What SOW? What deliverable? What agreement? You had no contract! The worker simply made the right decision based on your actions - you, got fired.
Good luck,
John McA
Lololololololololololl... Way to try to make the victim the bad guy. Where did I move the goal post?
Also funny that you are belittling me for trying to explain something to you like you asked. Lol, the Contractor did not ask for a detailed SOW or drawing or anyhting. Maybe the should have. Also, in your assanince comment about why not a tunnel or ferry... That's not my job as the person asking for a solution. I had a problem. He proposed a solution to the problem, it didnt work, he doesnt get paid. PERIOD. If he was to say, hey a pipe would be better then he shoul dhave said that. ACTUALLY!!!!!!!!!!!! I told him I got a quote for a pipe already and he again wanted to sell his method instead. He told me, "Oh I never like putting pipes under driveways". Lol. Again, blame the victim.
I called a company. estimator showed up (seemingly the owner of the company) We talked about what was needed, he gave a verbal solution and said he would "laser, measure, etc" it when they came to do the work. And he called me within a day to finalize and scheduled it literally 24 hours after that.
His business, not mine. Should he have had a contract, YES. Should, he have done waht he said and measured/lasered, YES. Is it my responsiblity to tell him how to run his business, NO.
This isnt a 300 page RFP that has multiple deliverables and complex moving parts. It was supposed to be a simple grading and paving.
And I didn't get fired, he quit. Last time I checked I was hiring him, not the other way around.
Thanks for your response though, add another to the blame the victim pile. This forum seems to have more people put effort into playing devils advocate then just agreeing with what is clearly the right answer which is that the contractor screwed up.
And another point... In the B2B world. Typically when a business is hired to deliver services their is a clause in the contracts that say, "If you fail to deliver services agreed upon then you will be financially liable when we go the extra mile to undo or redo whatever you were supposed to do." We consumers should think about starting to hold our contractors to this standard. Wouldn't that be great. Instead of us just signing a contract that they provide that says we have the upperhand we should say, "You want our business you can sign something that says if you don't do it right you are financially liable for me to hire someone else to do it over."
Only the honest tradesmen will survive that wave.
Hey,
Trying to help the victim here. Not having a contract with you was to his advantage. Allows him to change scope even clearly defined. I would suggest you have a contract next time. Verbal does not cut it in the construction industry. Courts and you have proven this. He took advantage of you - off the record.
Sure, consumers who eat at restuarants or install security systems don't need a contract.. or do they?
Drive by shootings are so passe.
Now we have drive by paving. Ha!
Good luck,
John McA
Trying to help the victim here. Not having a contract with you was to his advantage. Allows him to change scope even clearly defined. I would suggest you have a contract next time. Verbal does not cut it in the construction industry. Courts and you have proven this. He took advantage of you - off the record.
Sure, consumers who eat at restuarants or install security systems don't need a contract.. or do they?
Drive by shootings are so passe.
Now we have drive by paving. Ha!
Good luck,
John McA
MeanGene427
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You did the first step shooting it to see what will work. Wouldn't be HAMB- related if you didn't get a lot of "advice" from folks who know little if anything about the problem or type of work lol. You don't appear to have enough fall to go lengthways with your drainage, so sideways is your best bet. The advantage to a pipe with drainrock just past the edge of the pavement is that you can get water to flow in a pipe at much less slope than with surface drainage, as long as you have a destination point low enough for an outflow. I have put in a lot of storm drains of different pipe types, concrete, SDR35 which is the green stuff commonly used for storm and sewer, HDPE which is the black pipe with the ribs on it etc. I have done a lot with less than a half percent of slope at the flow line of the pipe with careful installation and made it work. If I understand your area without actually seeing it, grading to the outside with a trench/pipe/rock along the outside could make it work. A small mini-excavator on rubber tracks could easily cut for that, just need a place to put the dirt, you'd need about a 1'x1' trench for the rock and a 4" perforated pipe. That puddle,as I said before, is just a poor job of grading & paving the "conform" as we call it in the business, the downhill new paving is higher that the uphill old stuff and it can't drain. Could have just been a lousy job by the raker, and why we always used some kind of level or straightedge on conforms
I'd argue the opposite. I used a credit card. Typically if I chargeback the credit card he the CC company will usually side with the cardholder unless the contractor proves he was in the right. The cc company isnt just going to take his word for it. They are going to ask where I agreed to the $ of money they charged my cc.. His contract is typically crafted to protect him from chargebacks and litigation. Not to protect the consumer.
He also cannot put a lein on my property because again, he needs a written contract to submit the petition for that. Could he take me to court? Sure, but I'd imagine he would lose that as well, though I'm not an attorney. As I said in another post earlier though, if he is willing to risk his reputation and his companies legal fees for $7000 then he is running his business too lean and will not survive. I have him on video breaking my property and looking around to make sure nobody else saw then just disregarding it. I have them on video clearly trying to make a channel for the water.. If they try to lie about the scope of work I have what I imagine to be clear evidence to the contrary.
But it doesnt matter. It won't get that far because I'm seriously not worried about any of that.
Not that I love this idea but what about one of those surface channels that have grating on top? Instead of a point to point pipe if that makes sense? The reason I'm thinking that is so I don't have to have the driveway repaved over after putting a pipe in.
MeanGene427
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Those "surface drains" actually have a box structure underneath that doubles as a pipe, and they are somewhat expensive- ACCO is a brand we used a lot. Still need a trench to install. Not sure where you're coming from with repaving the driveway after putting in a pipe in the landscape area. A mini-ex with rubber tracks and a skillful operator will not damage your pavement. Methinks you need to stop trying to fix this on the 'net, and get a highly recommended local paving contractor to come and look at it with you
Yeah I'll have a better update on Monday or Tuesday when the 2 other contractors come to give the fix.
The reason I'm saying to cut through the driveway is for two reasons. #1. If I go straight out from this picture it goes up hill. So no where to hit daylight that is lower. to find daylight and go down hill i'd have to go <--- from the picture and that is where the driveway heads.
Also the low point is no longer on the landscape it's in a bowl type situation on the asphalt as he built up a wall/channel with the asphalt instead of having it go downhill and then hit landscape. It now goes downhill and then slightlup uphill for about 1.5 ft.
Figured that the CC charge is what you would argue not, that I'm trying to help keep you from being the victim you say you are. But of course you aren't a victim.
I've read your other posts.
For someone (suspect or perpetrator?) from New Jersey, you clearly have all angles figured. You don't have to explain to me how you conduct yourself. I have seen it before. I know what happens.
BTW: MeanGene427 just gave you a perfect solution without charging your CC and, you just about **** all over it.
Anyway, I'm done here - I don't think I can help you - uh, that was the reason you posted, right?
Good luck,
John McA
weadjust
Well-known member
Since you didn't specify what size boat. If a toy boat can float under the bridge you would need to pay up for the completed bridge. It's all in the details or lack there of. Like your asphalt project
You're cute.
CombatNinja
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At risk of entering a cockfight way too late.... It looks like you could possibly alleviate 75% of your current puddling issue by sort of properly edging your driveway. If you put a nice cut edge there, it looks like it falls from left to right and I think the vast majority of that water would drain. Granted, you'd have to maintain it, but that is kind of the nature of edging. It is something that needs to be be kept up with. Just a thought.....
edit: also, your lawn looks like a lot of weeds and ******** so I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that you have not/are not currently edging the driveway?
edit: also, your lawn looks like a lot of weeds and ******** so I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that you have not/are not currently edging the driveway?
This was my first year mowing my lawn. I mow roughly once a week and use a string trimmer around places I can't get the ride on. However I don't edge around the driveway so to speak.
My lawn is definitely a mess though. I'm still learning the right way to handle that.
There's a house in town where they blacktopped the entire lawn. Lol. Problem solved.
Uncle murph
Well-known member
This,this,this,water runs downhill,cavemen knew it.
Uncle murph
Well-known member
If they told you the turbo would allow your car to defy gravity,would you have gone for that too?
Trying real hard to blame the victim I see... Obviously the original scenario you can agree is messed up so you had to come up with a new version that is more extreme to try and make this my fault lol.
But sure, I'll play your game. If they told me it would defy gravity and believed them because againx they're experts, and it didn't. What's your recourse? I'd think false advertising, fraud, and definitely not getting paid.
Add another one to the pile of people that think consumers are supposed to be smarter and more knowledgeable then the businesses that tout themselves as experts. Last time I checked my name wasn't Jack and I didn't know the ins and outs of all trades.
Ask for the contractor to come back with a skid steer remove the black top installed . Spread a little 2 b stone the way it was before he took the job . This will save you both in legal fees fighting over the puddle .
Next you write up a scope of work and hire an engineer and require the contractor be bonded with milestones for payment.
Also don’t forget to add in for compaction testing and storm water management inspections . This will protect you from being the project manager .
I do have experience in this and can refer several consultants and engineers that have a proven track record to make this project one you will be happy with . I can see the stress this is causing you and the need to make this project move forward. Some one that has your business experience and intelligence understands that professionals in this field is the solution not the final cost.
Next you write up a scope of work and hire an engineer and require the contractor be bonded with milestones for payment.
Also don’t forget to add in for compaction testing and storm water management inspections . This will protect you from being the project manager .
I do have experience in this and can refer several consultants and engineers that have a proven track record to make this project one you will be happy with . I can see the stress this is causing you and the need to make this project move forward. Some one that has your business experience and intelligence understands that professionals in this field is the solution not the final cost.
I thought about that. But he also cut my existing driveway and that cut is where the new puddle is. Only solution is to redo the whole existing driveway to fix. So sure he can spend the money to excavate everything. Haul it all off, redo the whole existing driveway. Put grass seed down oh and pay for an electrician to come fix the light he broke. Or he can take write it off as a business loss and change their process so this doesn't happen again in the future.
You dismissed the suggestion about a catch basin saying 'where would I put it' 'I don't want to F up my ' driveway. The drain from the catch basin should be centered at the lowest point of your puddle. Done correctly right it will look fine. As others have noted, the grass is higher than your driveway. Thimk about it....Oh and 48 hours later still not draining... But I should pay him for the work lol.
The problem with the bid/job was so obvious you were kind of naive to have expected performance. And to say 'I hired an expert....' Well, see above, If you thought an expert could drain water uphill then I'd say you were 'soon parted' from your money.
You don't need a whole new driveway. You need a lawn that's lower so the water can go somewhere.
This has been told to you many times.
And you also need to understand the purpose of asphalt isn't to be 100% free of water. It's to not have you driving through mud and sinking/getting stuck when it rains.
The catch basin idea was an option before he moved the puddle up stream higher in the middle of my driveway... The old low point was where the driveway met the grass. See the survey drawings earlier in the thread. The new problem he created will now cost more money to fix and require digging under the driveway to go towards the lowest point of the property
Your low point is still where the asphalt meets the grass. That's why the rest of the driveway is dry but that little puddle exists after 48 hours.
The channel just helps it get down there faster.
Your problem is there's a freaking wall of dirt that turns to mud not letting the water go anywhere quickly enough for your liking.
You could literally dig a little trench in your yard straight out from the channel in the pavement and the water would leave. It would just keep eroding your yard though.
I'll take a better photo later. That's not the case. He created a wall almost like a V where that low point is. Also the channel he created also does not drain. I took a broom to push the water down the channel but if I don't do that it will sit there, freeze, etc.
The old issue would resolve itself after a day or less depending on how saturated the ground is. This new issue is not draining at all. I imagine during the summer it'll evaporated quicker but in the cool weather we have it's not going anywhere. We are on day 4 and it's still there.
I'll have more information tomorrow when I have another contractor come to give their estimate/ opinion
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