ATF / acetone penetrant question

[bchee]

This power steering fluid / acetone mix as a penetrant keeps coming up in the favorite penetrant/lube threads.

Who uses it regularly, and how do you store it?
Any long term practical reviews?

edit: changed from ATF to power steering fluid

 

[Moose-LandTran]

where do you buy straight acetone? Can brake cleaner be used as a substitute? It's made largely of naptha.

 

[bchee]

I saw it in the paint section at Home Depot. What big home improvement stores do you have where you are?

it comes in a gallon metal can, and a smaller can, probably 20-30 ounces

I was wondering mainly if the 50/50 mix could be stored long term and still be effective.

 

[bmwpower]

Cheap carb cleaner is usually all acetone. Check the label.
For small quanities, it should work.

 

[Fedwrench]

I tried a batch awhile back. The only thing I missed was the little red straw from an aerosol can. I put in a squirt oil can, it works really well. You can get acetone from a paint and body supply to mix with your ATF. Although a sureshot spray can might be overkill, you could get a smaller air powered sprayer.
However, there was an article comparing various penetrates in the April 2007 issue of Machinist Morkshop Magazine. They arranged a subjective test of all of the popular penetrants with the control being the torque required to remove the nut from a scientifically rusted environment.
Penetrant: Average Load:
none 516 ft lbs
WD40 238
PB Blaster 214
Liquid Wrench 127
Kano Kroil 106
ATF-Acetone mix 53

It's interesting to note for those of us that are too lazy to do the atf/acetone mix that Liquid Wrench results were close to Kroil at like 1/4 the price.
My batch has been sitting in its can for over a year with no loss of performance. I just shake it up before each use.

 

[isr2kba]

This ATF / acetone mix as a penetrant keeps coming up in the favorite penetrant/lube threads.

Who uses it regularly, and how do you store it?
Any long term practical reviews?

I wonder about this myself. I have mixed up very small batches to test and have been pleased with it. I thought of making up a bit more and storing it in a spray bottle.

I would guess that the mixture would stay in solution -- the small batches I've made never exhibited signs of separation (though I don't keep it around more than a day or two).

It would be nice to hear from someone who has tried this.

 

[krusty the clown]

acetone can be bought at any decent hardware store. if you only want a small amount get fingernail polish remover it's acetone. you might want to have the wife buy it though, they may think your "funny" or a meth cook.

 

[Nealcrenshaw]

I hate the smell of ****** fluid,PB Blaster is my best friend. But out of curiosity is the ratio a 1:1 mix?

 

[Fedwrench]

I hate the smell of ****** fluid,PB Blaster is my best friend. But out of curiosity is the ratio a 1:1 mix?

yes or 50:50.

 

[ourkid2000]

I wonder how well do these penetrating oils work on say a screw in a vertical surface? Gravity is not working in your favor here, will it still penetrate?

 

[Fedwrench]

There are always going to be situations when nothing will help you and you're basically screwed. However when trying to defeat rust, corrosion, and age, chemicals can help before breaking out the heat.

 

[Moose-LandTran]

I find a quick once-over with a good wire brush makes a world of difference on rusty nuts/bolts/threads.

 

[bchee]

you guys think it's too volatile to store in a plastic container?

 

[lauver]

I tried a batch awhile back. The only thing I missed was the little red straw from an aerosol can. I put in a squirt oil can, it works really well. You can get acetone from a paint and body supply to mix with your ATF. Although a sureshot spray can might be overkill, you could get a smaller air powered sprayer.
However, there was an article comparing various penetrates in the April 2007 issue of Machinist Morkshop Magazine. They arranged a subjective test of all of the popular penetrants with the control being the torque required to remove the nut from a scientifically rusted environment.
Penetrant: Average Load:
none 516 ft lbs
WD40 238
PB Blaster 214
Liquid Wrench 127
Kano Kroil 106
ATF-Acetone mix 53

It's interesting to note for those of us that are too lazy to do the atf/acetone mix that Liquid Wrench results were close to Kroil at like 1/4 the price.
My batch has been sitting in its can for over a year with no loss of performance. I just shake it up before each use.

Guys,

The above results pretty much say it all. I do have one concern though, when using this ATF/Acetone mixture on a painted surface. Acetone is hell on most paints.

Here's a typical situation I run into all the time...say I want to remove my radiator, and all the radiator bolts and sheet metal screws are rusted and corroded. I'm hesitant to spray the fasteners on all this painted metal. To be safe, I use PB blaster or equivalent because I know that PB Blaster won't affect the painted surfaces. Now with fasteners on bare or rusted metal I think I would be inclined to use the ATF/acetone mixture without hesitation.

Has anybody used the ATF/Acetone mixture on painted surfaces? What were your results?

 

[Major Ramifications]

acetone can be bought at any decent hardware store. if you only want a small amount get fingernail polish remover it's acetone. you might want to have the wife buy it though, they may think your "funny" or a meth cook.

While it is true that my local Ace has acetone in a variety of sizes, most, if not all, fingernail polish remover no longer contains any acetone.

The last time I bought acetone, it was 5.99 a quart? (Could be a pint) Also, I wanted to mention that acetone will strip the paint off of whatever you get it on. It smells so good, however.

 

[JohnFreeman]

Gun guys use it all the time (Google "Ed's Red"). I store it in a 1 gal metal can with a screw lid. Works great. Acetone is available at Lowes I think... great stuff.

 

[bchee]

Gun guys use it all the time (Google "Ed's Red"). I store it in a 1 gal metal can with a screw lid. Works great. Acetone is available at Lowes I think... great stuff.

sweet. thanks for the info

http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=9
Bore cleaner recipe

1 part Dexron II, IIe or III ATF, GM Spec. D-20265 or later.
1 part Kerosene - deodorized, K1
1 part Aliphatic Mineral Spirits, Fed. Spec. TT-T-2981F, CAS
#64741-49-9, or may substitute "Stoddard Solvent", CAS #8052-41-3, or
equivalent, (aka "Varsol")
1 part Acetone, CAS #67-64-1.

 

[fatfillup]

acetone can be bought at any decent hardware store. if you only want a small amount get fingernail polish remover it's acetone. you might want to have the wife buy it though, they may think your "funny" or a meth cook.

 

[boogerboy72]

sweet. thanks for the info

http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=9
Bore cleaner recipe

1 part Dexron II, IIe or III ATF, GM Spec. D-20265 or later.
1 part Kerosene - deodorized, K1
1 part Aliphatic Mineral Spirits, Fed. Spec. TT-T-2981F, CAS
#64741-49-9, or may substitute "Stoddard Solvent", CAS #8052-41-3, or
equivalent, (aka "Varsol")
1 part Acetone, CAS #67-64-1.

weve been using atf and kerosene in our parts washer for years, works good.

 

[Kurt4440]

you guys think it's too volatile to store in a plastic container?

No, you can buy acetone in plastic containers.

 

[fordracing200]

it surprises me that liquid wrench ranks that much better then PB blaster......I'll have to grab me some to try.

 

[Givl Reggin]

it surprises me that liquid wrench ranks that much better then PB blaster......I'll have to grab me some to try.

While the test results are interesting you need to keep in mind that there was only ONE test sample done per oil. And although each piece was electrolytically rusted to ensure uniformity, for it to be truly a useful and meaningful test it should have been repeated (at least twice) and the result averaged.

I keep a squirt bottle of it handy - it works as well as anything else I've tried... a word of advice always shake well just before using because it likes to separate. 50/50 seems like a good ratio, more power-steering fluid and the stuff is to oily more acetone and the flammability danger rises.

 

[pierre]

you guys think it's too volatile to store in a plastic container?

No, you can buy acetone in plastic containers.

It depends on the type of plastic. I do believe HDPE is the chemical resistant one. I recall reading a post (not certain if it was this board or another) where a fellow made his mix of the same concoction and melted the plastic sprayer, making a mess.

I wonder what the type of ATF was in the original recipe.

 

[superautobacs]

I've learned that polyethylene will hold acetone.

 

[Givl Reggin]

I wonder what the type of ATF was in the original recipe.

It wasn't Automatic Transmission Fluid! The original article, as printed in the magazine, stated the test was run with ATF and acetone, but the test was actually run with Power Steering Fluid as the photograph showed.

The author of the original article was contacted, and the updated results, and addition comments can be found here:

http://systems-engineering-associates.com/papers/avocations/Testing_Penetrating_Oils.pdf

 

[J.A.F.E.]

I use acetone on a fairly regular basis at work. It is a very good solvent for many things including the adhesive used on pressure sensitive tapes and price labels. It generally does not affect most plastics on contact - BUT - it is a solvent for many. Most clear screw driver handles for example will soften on contact (for example the red/blue/clearCMan type).

With ATF it has proven to be a valuable penetrating oil and cleaner to me in many situations and it's inexpensive and readily available.

One word of caution: acetone is flammable and it is not good for the human (or other animals) nervous system. Read the MSDS and avoid contact with your skin or breathing it.

 

[Ed ke6bnl]

I made up the solution and it work fine for me, I was alway ridiculed when I would say that it worked better then Kroil. I never even finished the conatainer of Kroil threw it away. I store mine in large plastic cleaned out coke bottles and never have had a problem then move it to smaller containers or hyperdermic needles ED's red

 

[pierre]

It wasn't Automatic Transmission Fluid!

Nifty! I'll have to use PSF for my next batch. Since people have had good luck with the ATF I have to wonder if acetone is doing the brunt of the work, and mixing it with any light oil would do the trick.

 

[User_Name]

While the test results are interesting you need to keep in mind that there was only ONE test sample done per oil. And although each piece was electrolytically rusted to ensure uniformity, for it to be truly a useful and meaningful test it should have been repeated (at least twice) and the result averaged.

I haven't read the article but the quoted results always bugged me precisely because of what you wrote. (just spitballing here) For one, I doubt that the fasteners were uniformly rusted - I want to see proof of this. Would it be too expensive to corrode a couple hundred fasteners and use half of them as a control to find what the distribution of the breaking torque was? After that you've got about 20 per test group to get meaningful results if the control distribution wasn't too wonky.

When I did an experimental design course one of the assignments was to gut a statistical analysis that appeared in a refereed physiology journal. You could drive a truck through the holes in that paper. I expect this experiment was even worse.

The acetone/ATF may well be better than the rest. But if you are right about the setup (and I suspect you are) then there's no way to verify it based on what they've done.

 

[Bolster]

it surprises me that liquid wrench ranks that much better then PB blaster......I'll have to grab me some to try.

Behold, the awesome power of marketing!

PS: It bears repeating, it was not ATF, it was PSF.

 

[Bolster]

You could drive a truck through the holes in that paper. I expect this experiment was even worse.

It's good to be skeptical. But you have to ask: a flawed test compared to what? No test at all? Marketing hype? The endorsement of people who've never used a different product?

The other thing you have to do is follow the money. Who is making money off the PSF/acetone mix? Is there a corporate sponsor involved somewhere? If not, then you can be a little more confident.

You do realize that a lot of what passes for "tool wisdom" is just people breathing their own exhaust. "I use it, therefore it is the best," the reasoning goes.

I've had lots of methodology classes myself, and have designed & executed numerous studies. I know that just about any methodology is flawed to some degree. But if I'm presented with even a humble low-n test vs. marketing hype and the rumor mill, I'll place my bets on the test until better data comes in.

PS: It bears repeating, it was not ATF, it was PSF.

 

[Givl Reggin]

It's good to be skeptical. But you have to ask: a flawed test compared to what? No test at all?

A flawed test is no test at all.

From a scientific statistic point of view, the way they conducted their “testing” the only thing that can be concluded from the results is nothing.... statistically a sample size of one is meaningless…. you simply can't draw many valid conclusions from that.

About the only conclusion they should have reached is that some kind of penetrating oil may or may not be better than going at it dry. To declare a true winner or even ranking them from better to worst from just one result is absolutely ridiculous.

For it to have been a truly meaningful test at a minimum they need to do 3 rusted fasteners with each oil and control the amount of oil metered each time…. even better would be to do 10 – with 10 variables like getting each fastener equally electrolytically rusted becomes less important - then throw out the lowest and highest torque numbers for each oil and take the average of the remaining 8 numbers… now you have a statistically large enough sample size that you can make some scientific conclusions from.

For the past 30+ years I have used Liquid Wrench, WD-40 and for the last 1-1/2 years I’ve added the PSF/Acetone mixture to my arsenal. In my unscientific testing one works about as good as the others… the main things to keep in mind are how much of the oil you use (a few drops vs. soaking vs. flooding) and the length of time it is allowed to penetrate.

 

[Bolster]

A flawed test is no test at all.

Not even close to true. Sorry. While this test is no shining example of rigor, most tests are technically flawed. If you threw out every test with a flaw in it, you'd never draw any conclusions at all.

statistically a sample size of one is meaningless

I think you misunderstand, this test does not have a sample size of one. Could it be made better? Of course. Would I take it on Bubba's say-so that his experience beats this low-n test? No.

then throw out the lowest and highest torque numbers for each oil and take the average of the remaining 8 numbers… now you have a statistically large enough sample size that you can make some scientific conclusions from.

No, and no again. You could take the median number, but it's frowned upon to toss high and low results unless they are true outliers (and there are tests to determine if it's a true outlier). Finally, "statistically large enough," by which I take you mean drawing statistically significant conclusions, is not just an issue of sample size, but also of power of the effect. With large effect sizes, you can use very low 'n' and obtain statistical significance.

Here's an idea: if you disbelieve the test, do a better one yourself, and report the results. That's how science works.

I'm all in favor of rigor. I just don't understand trashing a careful observation where some controls were in place, in favor of intuition and casual personal observation where no controls are in place.

PS: It bears repeating, it was not ATF, it was PSF.

 

[vartz04]

I am going to start using it in a can like this


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-...CAN-NEW!!_W0QQitemZ380149589972QQcmdZViewItem

pour in the mix and pump it up with the air compressor.

 

[User_Name]

I don't want to get into a stats ******* contest, so I'll just ask "Does anybody know definitively how they tested this ****?". I haven't seen the original article but I'm under the impression that they
1) seized some bolts
2) applied the fluids in some way
3) measure the loosening torque.
4) did all of this exactly once.

If we're going to bust each others chops it would be helpful to know what we're arguing about. I'm sure a few of us can argue the abstract points all day long (like the validity of trimmed means prior to outlier analysis) without hearing anything we don't already know. Let's keep the philosophical out of it and concentrate on what should be a simple problem.

 

[Danglerb]

I keep half a dozen goops handy, when one doesn't work, I try another. Start with kroil if thats what is handy.

Whats the difference between ATF and PSF? or for that matter Marvel Mystery Oil?

 

[krusty the clown]

Whats the difference between ATF and PSF?

i'm wondering the same........both are hydraulic oils. it must be just anti-foam additives,petroleum distilates and different viscosity?

 

[Moose-LandTran]

Isn't ATF usually full of detergents to keep Auto boxes and their valve bodies clean?

 

[boogerboy72]

too bad they didnt test penetro 90. thats good stuff.

 

[bchee]

Whats the difference between ATF and PSF? or for that matter Marvel Mystery Oil?

I corrected the original post from ATF to PSF as requested. I don't know how to change the title though.

I thought in some older cars they used these 2 fluid interchangeably. I thought they were both mineral-oil based.

Regardless of the experiment results, I could try both mixes for very cheap (ATF/acetone or PSF/acetone).

By the way, if you know what else "PSF" stands for I will know how naughty you are