Athol vise restoration questions

[mossy1]

I inherited an old Athol 713 vise and while trying to learn more about it I've repeatedly ended up here.

I love the restorations that everyone here has done on these old vises. I just took this one apart to strip her down and get it looking good again. It is a 4" jaw width, 6" opening, 3.25" depth, and if I had to compare it to another vise it looks and measures nearly identical to the Reed 104 with the 3 hole fixed base. It does not look too beat on and the slide and jaws are pretty clean also.

I have a couple areas of concern:

The main nut was held in by a solid pin about .375" dia., driven out from underneath. It does not resemble the set screw style setup that I've seen on other period vises. It is bent and the main nut did have a lot of forward and rear play. Would it be a good idea to make a set screw style pin, and perhaps mill the hole a little larger and use wider pin stock?

The other thing that has me a little angry is the front knob was pinned to the main screw and it wasn't even done nicely. It had a lot of wobble that was annoying. I have gotten it apart and the cog surfaces will mate and work fine, but the main screw shaft was so thin on the sides of the handle that the rear portion is broken and in the rear of the ball.

Can anyone describe or post pictures of the original mechanism looks like, I can only imagine there was maybe a spring or such seated inside the cogs, and the handle passed through a slightly elongated main screw hole that allowed it to move back and forth. Removing the handle would allow the ball to come off. There is also a hole in the rear piece of the main screw that could have contained a spring or detent...I'm not sure if this was to center the handle or it was part of the cog disengaging setup.

I'm trying to decide if I should have someone weld on a new main screw rear end and machine it for the handle, get the proper spring(s) and have it function...or just seat the cogs tightly and figure out how to re-pin it so it wasn't wobbly like it was.

 

[drivesitfar]

Mossy: first of all welcome to our forum. the Athol vises were some of the best built vises made. the pin you mention that has probably been bent was the method most vise companies used to hold their vise nuts. if you are able to tap a hole and put in a bolt with a head on it to take up any slop the vise will work better. some guys just make a shim and either place it there or weld it to the pin if they have the talent.

there is a spring with a cotter pin to hold the main screw in the dynamic jaw and there are several posts on the Vise Repair 101 thread showing how members made a pipe with a notch in it to push the spring back so they could remove or replace the cotter pin. the link for the 101 thread is in my signature.

here's one members awesome thread on how he made some modifications on his pair of Athol vises.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=274194&highlight=athol+vise

good luck and can you post a few pictures of your vise? i use the paperclip above where we write our posts to attach pictures sort of like attaching pictures to an email.

 

[mossy1]

Thank you for the idea on the main nut keeper pin. I was thinking the same thing, to tap a larger pin and either shim behind it or add a set screw.

As far as the main screw retention, this model actually has a slot cut around the main screw which is kept in place by a retention plate that is screwed to the inside of dynamic jaw. Although there is a little slop there as well, I was going to either make a thicker plate or get some shims to go in front of the jaw for the swivel stop to seat against...or both.

Regarding the handle "ball" knob, it is a two piece knob with the main nut piece having cogs that mate to cogs on the ball piece, I think the two pieces push apart as default and need to be pushed in to engage the screw for rotation. It wold keep the handle neutral and at 6 o'clock all the time.

Someone must have hated this and decided to pin the ball to the main screw shaft. I won't mind how it functions either way, I just need help figuring out if it's worth (or feasible) trying to get it back to original. If I decide to just re-pin it, I will have to figure out how to do it more diligently than the original pinning and fill the holes they drilled to run the old pins.

I will try to get some pictures up this weekend.

 

[drivesitfar]

Mossy: yes pictures would help me (us) help you so take a few and post them when you can.

i found the pipe that ExMaxima made to depress the spring so he could take out the cotter pin or put it back in. some other members use PVC pipe and others struggle and swear and finally get it done because without the pipe i hear it is a PIA.

good luck

 

[ZRX61]

I just compress the spring in another vise & give it 2 wraps with safety wire to hold it while I put the pin in. Then just cut the safety wire.

 

[Tom in NY]

Hi, I have a 714 (swivel base) in decent working order. Here's a starrett patent that shows how the dog clutch knob is supposed to work:

google patents

I'll put up some photos of my almost-undamaged mechanism.
The handle can be screwed into the knob to lock the teeth together, so it doesn't auto-disconnect and swing to the 6:00 position. It locks against the shaft and can booger it up over the years.

Tom

 

[mossy1]

Hi, I have a 714 (swivel base) in decent working order. Here's a starrett patent that shows how the dog clutch knob is supposed to work:

google patents

I'll put up some photos of my almost-undamaged mechanism.
The handle can be screwed into the knob to lock the teeth together, so it doesn't auto-disconnect and swing to the 6:00 position. It locks against the shaft and can booger it up over the years.

Tom

Thank you for the patent link. I need to figure out how to blow it up to see the specific spring arrangements. Here are some photos of the vise and the butchered knob pinning that I'm trying to work around.
If you can see in the last two photos, the clutch is disengaged when the shadetree pinning holes are lined up...when the holes are offset front to back, the clutch is engaged. The reason two holes are joined is because it looks like one of the clutch cogs was in the way when they drilled it and deflected the drill bit. If I end up permanently repining it and closing up the old holes, I need to figure out how to do it with the clutch engaged for a no wiggle fit. Using the old pinning holes, allows the knob to be kind of sloppy.

 

[Tom in NY]

Wow. That's pretty well butchered up. Here's what it's supposed to look like. Maybe the previous owner cross threaded the handle (like mine, but worse) and that's why they drilled through and pinned it.

 

[drivesitfar]

Mossy: sorry i didn't know you (and Tom) have the ratcheting style Athol vises. I've never had one or seen one in person so i'll just sit back and watch. please post lots of pictures and if you have time please post it the before and after pictures on the Vise Repair 101 thread so your thread doesn't get lost in the thousands of great vise repairs.

thanks and good luck

 

[mossy1]

Wow! I didn't even consider that the handle was not the pass through style and that it could have been threaded right into the knob. This explains a lot!

As you can see, the handle is threaded on one end (and bashed to heck). They drilled through the main screw shaft to allow this to pass though and in doing so the main shaft rear is broke free and lodged in the ball, under the wide cap screw. I need to Dremel some mushroom flare around the big screw cap to get it out, but I'm starting to picture the repair now...a bit of welding, filling, and tapping. I should be able to tap a new handle hole on a solid part of the knob, but connecting the main screw shaft to the keeper screw in the knob is the tough part.

Since the patent picture is difficult to understand, are there any springs involved or does the knob just "float" on some play with a keeper screw under the knob cap screw?

Drivesitfar, no problem. I didn't expect his vise to be this different and confusing. I've heard of them before but never encountered one.

 

[Tom in NY]

There's supposed to be a spring, under a button in the center of the knob. I'll take better photos tonight. Mine came with just a bolt and washer locking the two halves together. I've had it for 5 years. My plan was to wind a spring and turn a new center button but I've found that it works just fine, it's second nature to tighten it an pull back slightly so the teeth disengage and the handle swings down.

 

[Tom in NY]

Here's some more photos.

 

[Tom in NY]

properly rotated

 

[KZ1000J]

Tom in NY,

Excellent tool photography! Clear pics. Good detail. Lighting is just right.

Keep up the good work.

Mossy....welcome to Garargejournal!

KZ

 

[mossy1]

Thanks for the added pictures Tom, and thanks for the welcome KZ.

I started to tackle the knob cap last night, but someone hammered the heck out of the surrounding edges and severely swaged the cap in place.
The more I think about it...since the main screw shaft is in two pieces after the handle pass though modification, and the end cap would have to be machined out, I would need to have a skilled welder/machinist add new end shaft to the main screw...money, money, money. Since the vise was free and the main screw and nut threads do look a little tired, dumping hourly machining cash into it doesn't seem to make sense and I have too many other things to fix already. I am going to mount this vise on my well lit, sit down, tinkering bench for light to medium duty use. I have a heavier pedestal vise handles all the beating and grinding.

The clutch collar appears to be pressed on against the handle ball, as I was able to tap it down tight against the ball to close up an uneven gap. If I can remove it I would have complete access to the clutch surfaces. At this point, I could engage the two pieces tightly and while considering a couple different ways to permanently lock them together again, I'm leaning toward running some electricity though them.

BTW, awesome vise Tom! I have had a hard time finding anything about this 713. As mentioned in the "Everything you need to know about vises" thread, the Athol model numbers don't indicate the typical jaw sizes. It's neat to see the 713 and 714 base variation in this case.

 

[mossy1]

Well, the good news is that the collar comes off the handle piece easily.

The bad news is that I pulled the main nut out of the solvent soak to get all the crud and grease cake cleaned off and what do you know...trashed threads in the middle third of it, between 5:00 and 7:00. I thought the lash wasn't bad, and even through the threads on the main screw have minimal flat remaining it operated pretty smooth before disassembly. The nut threads are pretty sharp.

I know that square thread main screws on other vises is a costly fix. This thread is 90 degrees +/- on the front and a pitched cut (45 degrees +/-) on the back, about 6 TPI. I am hoping my buddy's father can pull me out of this one, his shop is capable of making the parts, but I think it will take a delivery truck worth of his favorite Polish beer to make it happen.

I would hate scrap the castings just because of the guts. The castings are in great shape.

 

[KMScott]

The threads are called Buttress threads and are made for clamping strength. If you would let me know the specs on your spindle like the thread diameter, over all length of the threaded portion because I have a extra spindle with the ratcheting meatball end that I bought it for my Athol 717 but it is to small. My vise has 5" jaws.

 

[mossy1]

KMScott, I will get the spec when I get home tonight. Thanks for the thread terminology, I couldn't find the proper term or name of these threads.

 

[mossy1]

Ok, the threads appear pretty strained and stretched as they vary between .865"-.878". Essentially it's a .875" diameter thread (rod) and 8.75" of the rod is threaded. The measurement from the tip (threaded end) end to the rear of the keeper slot is about 11 19/32". As stated before the thread is about 6-tpi and my guess at the OAL (because the main screw rear portion is stuck in the handle ball) would be 14.375-14.675".

If the planets were to align and the extra spindle is the same (and available), my only concern would be dealing with the critical part - the main nut.

I can only imagine the availability and cost of a 7/8"-6 buttress thread tap

 

[Kevin54]

I don't think you will find a die to cut it. Your best chances are, if someone has a used one, to replace it, or if you have a lathe, grind a tool and go at it to cut one. Chances are, you'd probably be better off finding some place that threads shafts on a daily basis, and see if they can cut what you need.

 

[mossy1]

Yeah Kevin, I am now investigating the options of readily available Acme threaded stock and deep nuts. I'm still going to visit my buddy's dad to see what he can come up with. I know if my Dad was still around (tool & die guy, welding wizard) we would have this thing knocked out of the park.

Kevin

 

[KMScott]

Wow, three Kevin's chatting here. I checked my spindle and it is a 3/4:7 Buttress. Dang, did not work out for you Kevin. It was a good shot anyway.

 

[Tom in NY]

KMScott, is the handle a taper thread into the "meatball"? Also, if you have a minute, could you post some photos of the spring, keeper screw and washer? I'm knee deep in projects (literally...I picked up a surface grinder and it's scattered all over the basement) but one day I'm going to make the proper screw to hold the knob together, plus I haven't found a spring that'll work.

Thanks,
Tom

 

[KMScott]

KMScott, is the handle a taper thread into the "meatball"? Also, if you have a minute, could you post some photos of the spring, keeper screw and washer? I'm knee deep in projects (literally...I picked up a surface grinder and it's scattered all over the basement) but one day I'm going to make the proper screw to hold the knob together, plus I haven't found a spring that'll work.

Thanks,
Tom

The Spindle handle is pressed in as far as I can tell. If it had threads a little thread should show on the handle, the handle is 1/2 dia. the 13/16 dia. spring is .055 music wire and only one full revolution, the washer is hard. The custom screw is 1/4 fine thread and has a 3/4 round head with a slot cut for a flat screw driver. The buttress thread on this spindle is 3/4:7.

I took a few pictures for you Tom.

I also showed another meatball end that came off my Athol 717 that had the handle hole drilled all the way through it. I have not finished repairing where they welded it solid and will need the same pieces made like you are interested in. The last Athol belongs to a member and just showing it for reference. Good luck.

 

[mikeswrenches]

I wonder if all the 700 series vises are made like this? I have a 710(3 1/2" jaws) and it is made the same way. Fortunately nobody screwed mine up, although it does have about a 1" long stress crack on the side of the slide.

Mike

 

[Dean3233]

I just purchased an Althol 614 and just want to clean it up, however I need the bushings and spring for the screw. Is there any place that supplies these?

 

[KMScott]

I just purchased an Althol 614 and just want to clean it up, however I need the bushings and spring for the screw. Is there any place that supplies these?

No Athol parts store any more, you have to measure your spindle shaft and purchase a spring with a wire diameter of .06 to .09 and buy or make a couple thick washers held in by either a roll pin or a dowel. I go to McMaster Carr first. Having a pipe that fits over your spindle with two slots cut in at 180 degrees so you can squeeze the spring to assemble the spring assembly. Good luck

 

[Dean3233]

Thank you KMSCOTT for the thread and the advice! Question, do I need a spring? Can I just make a bushing to fill the gap? Never restored a vice before really do not understand what the spring purpose is for. I am a bladesmith and this is going to be a daily user not a pretty one.

 

[KMScott]

Thank you KMSCOTT for the thread and the advice! Question, do I need a spring? Can I just make a bushing to fill the gap? Never restored a vice before really do not understand what the spring purpose is for. I am a bladesmith and this is going to be a daily user not a pretty one.

All it is there for is handle backlash. You can put a collar in it's place like most of the other vises.

 

[Dean3233]

Thank you,