Attached garage sub panel addition

[Brandon_oma#692]

Hi,
I am in rural Illinois.
I have an attached garage (connected to the house by a enclosed breezeway) that I need to upgrade the electric in. I have 100 amp service to the house. Cutler hammer CH breaker panel. 90 amp or less breaker to feed the garage sub panel. House is concrete block construction basement to roof with aluminum siding. Garage is stick built and bare studs inside.


Household electric loads.
Electric dryer
Electric water heater
TV's, microwave, 1 window air conditioner, general household stuff for a small 3 bedroom house.

Plan is to abandon the existing 20 amp garage circuit. Run 2-2-2-4 aluminum wire mhf in 1-1/4 Pvc conduit from panel to panel. From house to garage. Exit left of panel along interior basement wall approx 6'. LB to turn and go out thru basement block wall above exterior ground and below a deck approx 8'. Sweep up above deck and LB to enter garage approx 2'. LB up to new panel in garage approx 5'.

Garage panel. Thinking Eaton 100 amp panel with CH breakers so it is compatible with the house breakers. Use 100 breaker in this panel for the main since it comes with the panel and wire is protected by the smaller breaker in the main house panel.

Lighting circuit with mainly outlets for plug in led fixtures plus 2 regular bulbs.
20 amp 120 general circuit.
20 amp 120 circuit for 4 exterior outlets 1 per corner of garage.
50 amp 240 welder circuit
?? Amp 240 circuit to hardwire the synchrowave (match breaker in main panel that feeds this panel)
50 amp 240 circuit with 14-50 exterior
15 or 20 amp 120 dedicated for current air compressor need to check amp rating
?? Amp 240 circuit for lathe

Currently have the 40 amp 240 breaker that was for an electric stove in the house main panel wired to a 14-50 exterior outlet on the house. I plug a cord into that and run it to the driveway or garage to do anything 240v. Garage is a mess of extension cord to run lights and everything else. Only 2 outlets along the back wall. Lights flicker bad when I use the compressor or automotive scissor lift.

Electric stuff in garage.
120 air compressor
120 automotive scissor lift
120 motorcycle lift
240 welder Miller synchrowave 250
240 lathe less than 3hp

Angle grinder, bench grinder, battery chargers, led lights, flourscent lights, incandescent lights, security cameras, Christmas lights, big fan and medium fan...... . general stuff

Looking for a plasma cutter will be 240
Looking for a 240 mig welder unless I can borrow my Dad's indefinitely.
Need to add a fan in the gable to draw out the hot air in the summer
Might upgrade air compressor in the future

Currently everything "works" as long as I run the air compressor and automotive scissor lift off the "cord of doom". Not correct and anytime I do that it is plugged in to use and unplugged immediately after. This is why a am looking at getting a sub panel asap.

Where are the holes in this plan? The synchrowave welder has been happy on the 40 amp but I am using it at the low end of the amperage capability for this machine.

 

[Brandon_oma#692]

House panel picture. Need to fix a few neutrals and grounds that are sharing a screw. Just realized that is a problem on the existing garage circuit. Been that way since before I bought it. Time to fix it.

 

[pattenp]

If you are using 1.25" conduit I would not use MHF. Use the same sizes in aluminum XHHW-2. You don't need the thicker insulated MHF because it is designed for direct bury. The XHHW-2 will be easier to pull through the 1.25" conduit.

 

[Brandon_oma#692]

If you are using 1.25" conduit I would not use MHF. Use the same sizes in aluminum XHHW-2. You don't need the thicker insulated MHF because it is designed for direct bury. The XHHW-2 will be easier to pull through the 1.25" conduit.

Not sure what xhhw is. These are the 2 options I was considering.

https://www.menards.com/main/electrical/electrical-wire-cable/indoor-electrical-cable/2-2-2-4-aluminum-se-r-per-foot/3691028/p-1473854610596-c-6441.htm?tid=-8629590227879831194&ipos=1

EDIT correct link

https://www.menards.com/main/electrical/electrical-wire-cable/indoor-electrical-cable/2-2-2-4-aluminum-mobile-home-feeder-per-foot/3692059/p-1473854610601-c-6441.htm?tid=2617591067227189868&ipos=4

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Not sure what xhhw is. These are the 2 options I was considering.

https://www.menards.com/main/electrical/electrical-wire-cable/indoor-electrical-cable/2-2-2-4-aluminum-se-r-per-foot/3691028/p-1473854610596-c-6441.htm?tid=-8629590227879831194&ipos=1

https://www.menards.com/main/electrical/electrical-wire-cable/indoor-electrical-cable/2-2-2-4-aluminum-se-r-per-foot/3691028/p-1473854610596-c-6441.htm?tid=4897018777406189757&ipos=1

Xhhw is a type of wire insulation

Both links you posted above are the same product and theyre SE-R NOT MHF.

You do not need conduit for SER and i wouldnt recommend it either.

 

[Brandon_oma#692]

Xhhw is a type of wire insulation

Both links you posted above are the same product and theyre SE-R NOT MHF.

You do not need conduit for SER and i wouldnt recommend it either.

sorry did the same link twice. this should be it and updated other post.

https://www.menards.com/main/electrical/electrical-wire-cable/indoor-electrical-cable/2-2-2-4-aluminum-mobile-home-feeder-per-foot/3692059/p-1473854610601-c-6441.htm?tid=2617591067227189868&ipos=4


edit
I am not finding the 2 awg aluminium xhhw locally. Only local options are Menards or Farm and Fleet.

 

[mike93lx]

sorry did the same link twice. this should be it and updated other post.

https://www.menards.com/main/electrical/electrical-wire-cable/indoor-electrical-cable/2-2-2-4-aluminum-mobile-home-feeder-per-foot/3692059/p-1473854610601-c-6441.htm?tid=2617591067227189868&ipos=4


edit
I am not finding the 2 awg aluminium xhhw locally. Only local options are Menards or Farm and Fleet.

How about either 6 (60a) or 4 (90a) thhn/thwn copper. The run is short, so the price difference won't be massive. 60a is almost always plenty for a 1 man shop.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

since this is attached i would just forget about the conduit and go with the SER. would be easier to install especially since 1 1/4" conduit will be a bear to pull through

 

[Brandon_oma#692]

How about either 6 (60a) or 4 (90a) thhn/thwn copper. The run is short, so the price difference won't be massive. 60a is almost always plenty for a 1 man shop.

4 awg copper THHN is available locally 1.02/ft X 3 wires. So it is a little more than double the cost of 2-2-2-4 MHF. Not really a problem if it is the better option. What would I need for the ground? Bare copper? 6 awg or 8 awg? That makes it almost triple the cost though since it is a 50 foot roll.

 

[mike93lx]

4 awg copper THHN is available locally 1.02/ft X 3 wires. So it is a little more than double the cost of 2-2-2-4 MHF. Not really a problem if it is the better option. What would I need for the ground? Bare copper? 6 awg or 8 awg? That makes it almost triple the cost though since it is a 50 foot roll.

No bare copper, must be insulated.

I think 8 is fine, someone can confirm.

To wylie's point, why not SER?

 

[Brandon_oma#692]

If I use SER would I / could I do this? Exposed in basement, have the conduit to pass thru the basement block wall, continue straight, bend up, and LB into the garage wall, then exposed into garage panel directly above the LB?

The exterior run will be on top of a concrete slab along the edge of the attached breezeway/porch. After the wiring is done a deck will be made above the slab. I thought any wire in that spot should be in conduit even if not required. LB into garage will be just above deck and accessible.

Another option would be from the basement panel up in a wall along the chimney to the house attic, into the breezeway attic, then into the garage and down to panel. The length of wire would be about 3x this way assuming it is acceptable. I assumed this route would be more difficult and expensive.

Existing garage wiring is buried in the back yard and enters the garage at the opposite area that I want the panel. It would require about 5x the wire.

Please keep the ideas coming. I am hoping to find the balance of correct/simple/reasonably priced way to do this.

 

[mike93lx]

SER is ok outdoors if above ground

 

[pattenp]

An electrical supply house should carry Al XHHW-2. You can order from https://www.wireandcableyourway.com/xhhw-2/

 

[Brandon_oma#692]

Thanks for the help. I am using 2-2-2-4 Aluminium SE-R. All of it will be kept indoors now running up to the breezeway attic. I have some of what I need and will be starting soon.

Along with this I will be doing some improvements in the house. All main floor is on 1 circuit. Kitchen, living, bath, and 2 bedrooms. No gfci no afci anywhere. So far every grounded outlet I checked passes with a plug in diagnostic tool.

I would like to bring this all up 2008 code per Illinois but will do better where it makes sense. For example I am fine with not having a neutral at all my 3 way switches (please feel free to teach me if I am wrong here). The basement ceiling will be removed so hopefully I can do this correctly with as little making holes in main floor walls as possible. Am I correct that a combination AFCI GFCI breaker is my best way to protect the household circuits? My plan for the garage/outside is to use a GFCI outlet for the first outlet and protect downstream with it, but i don't think that will work as easy in the house.

What would be a good resource to educate myself on this? I tried looking for a book but what I thumbed through in the store was not all that impressive.

 

[Brandon_oma#692]

Well this is cool.....

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Thanks for the help. I am using 2-2-2-4 Aluminium SE-R. All of it will be kept indoors now running up to the breezeway attic. I have some of what I need and will be starting soon.

Along with this I will be doing some improvements in the house. All main floor is on 1 circuit. Kitchen, living, bath, and 2 bedrooms. No gfci no afci anywhere. So far every grounded outlet I checked passes with a plug in diagnostic tool.

I would like to bring this all up 2008 code per Illinois but will do better where it makes sense. For example I am fine with not having a neutral at all my 3 way switches (please feel free to teach me if I am wrong here). The basement ceiling will be removed so hopefully I can do this correctly with as little making holes in main floor walls as possible. Am I correct that a combination AFCI GFCI breaker is my best way to protect the household circuits? My plan for the garage/outside is to use a GFCI outlet for the first outlet and protect downstream with it, but i don't think that will work as easy in the house.

What would be a good resource to educate myself on this? I tried looking for a book but what I thumbed through in the store was not all that impressive.

Well this is cool.....

someone cheated by installing a jumper from neutral to ground to fool the testers.

looks like you have old K+T wiring. Theres no grounding there unless the conduit is bonded to the box.

looks like a rewire is in your future.

 

[Brandon_oma#692]

That is in the basement. Most of the upstairs is Romex I think. It is from the main panel until it disappears at least.

Yes plan is to rewire. Working on basement bedroom, bathroom, closet. I will be moving some walls/doors. Trying to get a sink is the basement bathroom. Currently just shower and toilet. Need a couple egress windows too.

 

[Innovate1]

A 90A for subpanel on a 100A main panel seems large. Might want to upgrade the main panel even though you will likely never hit 90A on the shop.

 

[Brandon_oma#692]

A 90A for subpanel on a 100A main panel seems large. Might want to upgrade the main panel even though you will likely never hit 90A on the shop.

That is the plan. Excluding my dryer and water heater 90% of my house is currently on ONE 20 amp breaker. I need to talk to the electric company about disconnect and reconnect to upgrade to 200 amp. Also no clue if my meter base is 200 amp capable and it is not labeled on the outside so I need it opened up to see if I can change the wires and the panel or meter base too.

My cost to run 90 amp capable wire and a 90 amp breaker was about $55 more than running 60 amps. I thought that made sense.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

A 90A for subpanel on a 100A main panel seems large. Might want to upgrade the main panel even though you will likely never hit 90A on the shop.

Not necessarily because it all depends on the calculated load.

 

[mike93lx]

A 90A for subpanel on a 100A main panel seems large. Might want to upgrade the main panel even though you will likely never hit 90A on the shop.

That doesn't matter.

Add up the breaker rating in your panel. It's way more than the value of your main. This is no different.

 

[Brandon_oma#692]

Here is the info for the welder in red box and why I am trying to get as much to the garage as possible. I don't plan on using it to it's maximum capacity but figured I would get as much power to it as possible. I really didn't want to be tripping a 60 amp breaker in the house and pulling new wire to the garage again to upgrade. I have been running it on a 40 amp circuit a little but was stick welding around 75 amps.

Edit new picture. hopefully bigger.

 

[mike93lx]

Here is the info for the welder in red box and why I am trying to get as much to the garage as possible. I don't plan on using it to it's maximum capacity but figured I would get as much power to it as possible. I really didn't want to be tripping a 60 amp breaker in the house and pulling new wire to the garage again to upgrade. I have been running it on a 40 amp circuit a little but was stick welding around 75 amps.

Edit new picture. hopefully bigger.

What are you Welding at home that could justify a 100a draw?

Might be time to think about a more efficient inverter welder. There is no need to use that much power

 

[Brandon_oma#692]

What are you Welding at home that could justify a 100a draw?

Might be time to think about a more efficient inverter welder. There is no need to use that much power

Don't think I ever will draw that much. 60A should be enough. A good friend had this welder and got another one just like it with a cooler for the tig torch. For the price I paid I have no problem keeping it. Most of the tig and stick welding I will be doing will be under 200 amps and mild steel, but I could see getting up to 250 occasionally.

He was using his new one on some aluminium plugged into a cord that was on a 40 amp breaker and was tripping the breaker. Now his is wired to a 60 or 70 amp breaker. No plug/receptacle just a disconnect.

 

[Brandon_oma#692]

ILLINOIS 2008 NEC

Well I have the wires pulled from the house to the garage and the sub panel in.T he old wires that came from the house to the garage underground are unhooked at the garage and the main panel. Have not removed them yet. I have 3 circuits at the moment.

1 120 15 amp powering the existing wiring. (garage lights/receptacles that will be removed and lights/recptacles on breezeway)
1 120 20 amp dedicated to 20 amp gfci in garage for little compressor.
1 240 50 amp 6-3 to 14-50 receptacle.

A few questions.

Existing lights and receptacles on the breezeway. These are fed from the garage with 14/2 nm without a bare ground. I have a short piece of 14-2 NM-B with ground from my new subpanel to a junction box powering these temporarily. 1 is on the shared wall with the garage so I can access it easily and switch to 14/2 with a ground. Can I leave the others with the old wiring and old outlets even though I changed the wire upstream of them? Or must I attempt to pull the old wires out and new in? the walls are 2x4 stud with plywood and paneling on the inside so access is a little labor intensive. What do I do for AFCI/GFCI?

New and old exterior lights. All new wire. 3 attached outside the garage walls 1 attached outside breezeway wall. I have access to this part of the breezeway wall from running the wire from house panel to new sub panel. Power will be from garage subpanel and the switch will be inside the house. is this ok? Is gfci only ok? or do I need afci/gfci since switch is inside the house?

 

[Sokoloff]

Put a GFCI upstream of all the no ground outlets and label them with “no equipment ground” stickers.

 

[Brandon_oma#692]

Any other advice for these questions?

ILLINOIS 2008 NEC

Well I have the wires pulled from the house to the garage and the sub panel in.T he old wires that came from the house to the garage underground are unhooked at the garage and the main panel. Have not removed them yet. I have 3 circuits at the moment.

1 120 15 amp powering the existing wiring. (garage lights/receptacles that will be removed and lights/recptacles on breezeway)
1 120 20 amp dedicated to 20 amp gfci in garage for little compressor.
1 240 50 amp 6-3 to 14-50 receptacle.

A few questions.

Existing lights and receptacles on the breezeway. These are fed from the garage with 14/2 nm without a bare ground. I have a short piece of 14-2 NM-B with ground from my new subpanel to a junction box powering these temporarily. 1 is on the shared wall with the garage so I can access it easily and switch to 14/2 with a ground. Can I leave the others with the old wiring and old outlets even though I changed the wire upstream of them? Or must I attempt to pull the old wires out and new in? the walls are 2x4 stud with plywood and paneling on the inside so access is a little labor intensive. What do I do for AFCI/GFCI?

New and old exterior lights. All new wire. 3 attached outside the garage walls 1 attached outside breezeway wall. I have access to this part of the breezeway wall from running the wire from house panel to new sub panel. Power will be from garage subpanel and the switch will be inside the house. is this ok? Is gfci only ok? or do I need afci/gfci since switch is inside the house?

 

[Brandon_oma#692]

Question. I am using a GFCI outlet as the first one to protect the entire circuit. I am assuming that I need to have the GFCI before the switch and the GFCI will always be hot and everything else controlled by the switch. Is this correct?