Attached or detached.

[Mike Honcho]

So i was contemplating my electrical run, and got to thinking. My house is attached to the garage via breezeway. So does this make it attached or detached? My concern is needing to be concerned about firewall breaching, or ground rods. Is this all up to the ahj? TIA.


Chris

 

[sublimate]

I went round-and-round with my city permit people on this exact issue before starting my build. It took the better part of a year because they changed their mind half-way into it.

It came down to: if the breezeway is enclosed/conditioned then it's attached.

 

[sands35]

The "real" answer is that it depends on your inspector.

 

[JohnX14]

I would consider that an attached garage for the purpose of both building and electrical codes. I am a full time building inspector and part time wiring inspector. It would have no bearing on whether the breezeway is conditioned. I can cite a number of code articles to substantiate, but won't bother unless someone really wants to hear.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

One county near me has a similar requirement, must be enclosed and heated/cooled.

Charles

 

[Mike Honcho]

Thanks for the replies, it is considered a conditioned room. hopefully i can get the inspector to come look before i start. worst case i suppose is i mount the panel on the opposite wall.....only a few more feet of wire. lol.

 

[sublimate]

It would have no bearing on whether the breezeway is conditioned. I can cite a number of code articles to substantiate, but won't bother unless someone really wants to hear.

I'd be curious to see that, as i fought with the city over this.

 

[Forest Road]

I know of 2 homes in NY with simply covered walkways. One is 75' long and 6' wide. When they were built they met the minimum standards for an attached structure. It was more important for insurance purposes than taxes.

 

[Trey T]

Mine has a breezeway and it's called detached garage. I always thought if the home doesn't share a wall or under same roof, then it's detached.

 

[JohnX14]

I'd be curious to see that, as i fought with the city over this.

Well, for starters I'd use the Webster's definition of attached and detached. Because the IRC does not define these terms. I'd substantiate by the fact that Table R302.6 requires 1/2" gypsum board for fire separation on the wall of the garage between the garage and house. It further requires 1/2" gypsum on the interior side of exterior walls of a garage that is located within 3' of a dwelling unit. To me that alone differentiates the 2.

I would also look at zoning ordinances. In this town, a separate building (detached garage) is considered an accessory structure. A house connected to a breezeway, connected to a garage is all one structure. Perhaps in your area zoning laws may distinguish the 2.

 

[black00lightning]

As said above, if you enter the garage through an air conditioned area then it is attached. Otherwise it is detached.

 

[Mike Honcho]

hopefully inspectors out tuesday.

if it does end up being attached, what differences are there? can i mount the panel on the wall common with the breezeway? the wall is covered in brick on the breezeway side. and it is my understanding that pvc conduit cant pass through a firewall.

i know he can answer my questions, i just want to be as informed as i can.

 

[JohnX14]

That is not a "fire wall". It is a fire separation required by IRC R302.6. All that you are possibly passing through is layer of 1/2" or 5/8 gypsum board and you are not prohibited from doing that with a pvc conduit. You are required to seal around the pipe with an approved material per IRC 302.5.3 and R302.11 Item 4. (Approved material would be defined as acceptable to the building official.) This based on IRC 2009 code. Then again I do not know what building code is in effect in your location.

 

[JohnX14]

As said above, if you enter the garage through an air conditioned area then it is attached. Otherwise it is detached.

Can you substantiate this explanation?

 

[black00lightning]

My statement was based on logic rather than as a direct quote. On the assumption that an attached garage has a common wall from an indoor space (air conditioned), then if you were to enclosed the breezeway and extend the home's a/c to cool/heat the breezeway, in my opinion this would count as square footage in the home. If that assumption is acceptable, then the previously detached garage would now be attached since it has access directly from the home. Make sense?

 

[Mike Honcho]

That is not a "fire wall". It is a fire separation required by IRC R302.6. All that you are possibly passing through is layer of 1/2" or 5/8 gypsum board and you are not prohibited from doing that with a pvc conduit. You are required to seal around the pipe with an approved material per IRC 302.5.3 and R302.11 Item 4. (Approved material would be defined as acceptable to the building official.) This based on IRC 2009 code. Then again I do not know what building code is in effect in your location.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Mike Honcho]

Bringing this back up, as i am slowly getting around to wiring my garage. AHJ deems the garage attached, soo my plan is once the conduit is in the garage, surface mount it and run it to the rear wall of the garage into the subpanel. That way i do not need to do any major work to the fire rated wall. My only question is....what is the distance when i need to worry about voltage drop on 6 gauge THHN on a 60 amp circuit? Thanks.

 

[6768rogues]

In NY it would be attached. There are construction materials connecting the two, so NY says it is attached. No idea what your state thinks.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Bringing this back up, as i am slowly getting around to wiring my garage. AHJ deems the garage attached, soo my plan is once the conduit is in the garage, surface mount it and run it to the rear wall of the garage into the subpanel. That way i do not need to do any major work to the fire rated wall. My only question is....what is the distance when i need to worry about voltage drop on 6 gauge THHN on a 60 amp circuit? Thanks.

How long is the run?

 

[venturesomerite]

Not an inspector or anything, but I'd say if it is in anyway attached to the house, it's an attached. Logic being that fire etc can still travel though the "attic" portion and through the breezeway roof structure.

 

[sands35]

NEC Table 310.15 (B) - to pick the conductor size. The unknown is the temperature de-rating. It can vary a bit depending on where the conductors are run and local expectations.

You can ask your AHJ for advice: "What temperature correction factor should I use?"

#6 THHN should be reasonable, for 60 amps, but it's up to the AHJ.

No affiliation:
http://www.barr-thorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Digest-176-NEC-Tables.pdf

 

[Gerald O]

Bringing this back up, as i am slowly getting around to wiring my garage. AHJ deems the garage attached, soo my plan is once the conduit is in the garage, surface mount it and run it to the rear wall of the garage into the subpanel. That way i do not need to do any major work to the fire rated wall. My only question is....what is the distance when i need to worry about voltage drop on 6 gauge THHN on a 60 amp circuit? Thanks.

It's not a "fire rated wall." It is a 'fire separation'. This is a very important distinction, as it relates to the kind of permissible penetrations and the means of treating those penetrations.

In my 'attached garage' that is attached by virtue of a breezeway/mudroom, I placed the subpanel inside the mudroom on the shared wall with the garage. All the garage wiring is done in the walls before closing the shared wall up. It just needs 5/8" fire resistant drywall separation, and a 20 minute door (or solid wood ).

To allow for future electrical expansion in the garage without having to tear the drywall back down, I ran a couple of 1-1/4" conduits inside the wall from the subpanel over to a 8" x 8" x 4" NEMA junction box accessible on the garage side. This properly maintains the fire separation yet provides garage side access to the subpanel.

 

[Mike Honcho]

It's not a "fire rated wall." It is a 'fire separation'. This is a very important distinction, as it relates to the kind of permissible penetrations and the means of treating those penetrations.

In my 'attached garage' that is attached by virtue of a breezeway/mudroom, I placed the subpanel inside the mudroom on the shared wall with the garage. All the garage wiring is done in the walls before closing the shared wall up. It just needs 5/8" fire resistant drywall separation, and a 20 minute door (or solid wood ).

To allow for future electrical expansion in the garage without having to tear the drywall back down, I ran a couple of 1-1/4" conduits inside the wall from the subpanel over to a 8" x 8" x 4" NEMA junction box accessible on the garage side. This properly maintains the fire separation yet provides garage side access to the subpanel.

Thanks for the info. I seem to always mispeak on the seperation wall.