Attached Shop Considerations

[xr4x4ti]

After 15 years I am finally ready to build by dream shop and I am hoping to get some feedback on the design. The primary purpose of the shop is car fabrication, machining, etc. I want to attach it to the existing 25ftX40ft wide garage. Please see the attached rough layout.


My main question regards access. Due to setback rules I cannot have a street facing garage door on the shop, I can't simply kick the shop over enough to do that. There is 23ft from the property line to the side of the existing shop and I have a 15ft setback rule.

The 16ft garage door on the side of the garage as depicted in the plans is not going to be ideal from an access standpoint when there will only be about 20ft to "make the turn" into the garage.

My actual question what are people's thoughts on relying on driving through the existing garage as the primary access? I will have to jockey cars around if you have one in the shop. Also, this affects the orientation of the lifts. I want at least one 2-post lift and it should be oriented with the primary method of ingress.

I have already decided to make the "breezeway" 24ft wide rather then 16 and there will be a 16ft garage door and a service door between the existing garage and the addition.

Does anybody have a similar setup? How much of a PITA is it?

Thanks,
Tim

 

[thammel]

So the addition will have a rear garage door and a side garage door. You say it will be difficult to enter via the side door. Then why have it? I would not like the idea of jockeying cars around to get to the addition area. I'd rather do a tight turn and back up and either use the side door or the rear door. And my preference would probably be just a man door between the 2 garages.

 

[ScaldedDog]

Nice plan. Do you have it drawn out on an aerial photo that shows the street(s) involved? That might help us visualize it better.

Mark

 

[xr4x4ti]

Nice plan. Do you have it drawn out on an aerial photo that shows the street(s) involved? That might help us visualize it better.

Mark

Here is an areal view of the property. The lot is large enough to support the size of the shop. The city has verbally approved the concept but I have not submitted the final plans yet. The problem is I need a 15ft setback from the southern property line and the current garage is already 23ft, only leaving 8ft. I really want to attach the new shop, but it makes getting in and out of it difficult. I have been reading on this forum that the minimum recommended driveway depth for a 90 deg turn is about 30 ft. I will have only about 20ft. The 16ft door will allow me to basically use part of the shop itself as the turn and will work if I don't part two cars side by side to often.

I plan on putting a garage door at the back of the shop, but I was not planning to try to run a driveway all the way to it, but maybe I should reconsider that?

The other obvious option and the original plan was to simply access the shop through the existing garage. Unfortunately I didn't think that far ahead and the Third stall is only 16ft wide. There is plenty of room to park 4 cars in the existing garage, it is 40ft wide, but I only put three garage doors on it and I put a step in it for cosmetic reason 15 years ago when I built it.


I am not concerned that jockeying cars in and out of the shop if via the existing garage will get old pretty quick if I have several running project cars back there.

I hope this adds some more detail to the discussion.

Thanks again,
Tim

 

[Wiz02]

No chance of getting a variance on the setback? Have you talked to your zoning board?

 

[davejo]

Set up some stakes in your backyard where everything is supposed to sit and drive your truck back there to jockey around the stakes. Might give you an idea of degree of pita.

 

[jblnut]

No chance of getting a variance on the setback? Have you talked to your zoning board?

I was going to suggest that as well. Some boards are tough but others are reasonable. When making your case make sure to find ways that it’ll benefit the city instead of making your life easier or the project less expensive.

Set up some stakes in your backyard where everything is supposed to sit and drive your truck back there to jockey around the stakes. Might give you an idea of degree of pita.

Another great suggestion. Set up the building back there and see what you can all get inside. When I built my shop I used stakes and string to mock up walls, doors, rooms, large tools and pallet racking. I built it larger because of it. I wish (as everyone does) I’d have built it 4x the size I did but the banker said it was large enough. What a fun hater

 

[CraigStu]

The problem I see w/ driving through the existing isn't moving a car if there happens to be one there. It is that you also need a path through the 'breezeway'. Which kills a ton of space that could be very useful. Here is a test. Get cars out of your existing 2 car garage. Back a car in front of the 3rd bay near the door but off into that diagonal where the truck is in the overhead pic, headed toward the house. Use trash cans or something to create a wall 20ft from the face of the 3 garage doors wall. Try driving into your 2 car garage. I don't think it will be all that difficult to get in there 'unless' you put the 2 post lift there. even that won't be too bad if you place it closer to the back wall and if you go for a model that places the posts further apart. BTW why do you need doors between the breezeway and the new garage? The breezeway is near the size of a typical 2 car garage so I'd have it full open to the rest of the new shop so I could put a long term car in there.

 

[YOM1963]

The lot is large enough to support the size of the shop. The city has verbally approved the concept but I have not submitted the final plans yet. The problem is I need a 15ft setback from the southern property line and the current garage is already 23ft, only leaving 8ft.

Check if flat work (sidewalks, driveways) are subject to the same setbacks as structures. Even here in MA, paved areas are only subject to coverage percentage requirements.

 

[xr4x4ti]

Check if flat work (sidewalks, driveways) are subject to the same setbacks as structures. Even here in MA, paved areas are only subject to coverage percentage requirements.

The driveway can go all the way to the property line.

 

[xr4x4ti]

No chance of getting a variance on the setback? Have you talked to your zoning board?

It is possible, but I am trying to avoid it. I looked into it and they said a minimum of 3 months and you have to go in front of the City Counsel.

 

[xr4x4ti]

Set up some stakes in your backyard where everything is supposed to sit and drive your truck back there to jockey around the stakes. Might give you an idea of degree of pita.

This is a great idea, thanks for the feedback.

 

[xr4x4ti]

The problem I see w/ driving through the existing isn't moving a car if there happens to be one there. It is that you also need a path through the 'breezeway'. Which kills a ton of space that could be very useful.

Yes, this is my concern, I am basically paying for a very expensive covered driveway. I am 100% not committed to making the breezeway 24+ ft wide which then even with a car parked there is plenty of room next to it for stuff like my CNC mill, Lathe, etc.

Get cars out of your existing 2 car garage. Back a car in front of the 3rd bay near the door but off into that diagonal where the truck is in the overhead pic, headed toward the house. Use trash cans or something to create a wall 20ft from the face of the 3 garage doors wall. Try driving into your 2 car garage. I don't think it will be all that difficult to get in there 'unless' you put the 2 post lift there. even that won't be too bad if you place it closer to the back wall and if you go for a model that places the posts further apart.

I have basically done this with chalk and it is pretty much impossible if you don't use part of the garage for the turn. This is what I tried to explain in the first post. Like you said, put the lifts at the back of the 30 ft. This serves two purposes, first it is a PITA to actually park on a regular basis between a two post lift. Second, it frees up the to park the cars in front of it and maneuver out the garage door. But I won't be able to park two cars close together as you then cannot start the turn in the garage. Does that make sense?

BTW why do you need doors between the breezeway and the new garage? The breezeway is near the size of a typical 2 car garage so I'd have it full open to the rest of the new shop so I could put a long term car in there.

Only to drive through if the side door doesn't work.

 

[pcmeiners]

Why not get an Architect to make plans and give you a precise material list and contract specifications....they know zoning/codes/building departments..... money well spent .
As to architect drawing up plans, it will save you money in contract bids plus you will get what you expect and not what the contractor thinks, and bills for unspecified work. Make sure you specify a performance bond, cost might seem a lot but if the contractor walks or does not build as you expect you are protected.

 

[Wiz02]

It is possible, but I am trying to avoid it. I looked into it and they said a minimum of 3 months and you have to go in front of the City Counsel.

I can see where the 3 month delay would hurt a bit, but if you can get the building configuration that you want, it may be worth the wait. If you're unhappy with a compromise configuration, you will hate it forever.

In addition, members of local government in my town are just regular folks, I expect it's like that in most places. They were reasonable to work with.

In my case, I was able to get a variance for my garage once I explained that I wasn't opening a repair shop and that the garage wouldn't overpower the neighborhood. Talking to the zoning board wasn't bad at all.

Of course that meant using scissor trusses (more $$) to keep the overall building height lower while still having enough ceiling height for a lift, but I got to build as much garage as I could afford, not what was mandated by setbacks.

 

[xr4x4ti]

Of course that meant using scissor trusses (more $$) to keep the overall building height lower while still having enough ceiling height for a lift, but I got to build as much garage as I could afford, not what was mandated by setbacks.

What your wall height? I had a neighbor that use scissor trusses for the same reason. If I attached the shop to the house I can have and plan on having 12ft walls which is really 12 1/2ft with the foundation.

 

[Wiz02]

Wall height is 10ft (IIRC) with 4:12 pitch roof. I have just enough ceiling interior height for a standard 2 post lift. Unfortunately there's no attic storage as the trusses weren't sized for that.

I'll take some pics when I get out to the garage later today.

 

[Wiz02]

Wall height is 10ft (IIRC) with 4:12 pitch roof. I have just enough ceiling interior height for a standard 2 post lift. Unfortunately there's no attic storage as the trusses weren't sized for that.

I'll take some pics when I get out to the garage later today.

@xr4x4ti : Here are a couple of quick pics (with a nod to PBS movie critic Patrick Stoner)

As you can see, the garage roofline is lower than the house's roofline per zoning board requirements. Yet a standard 2 post lift just fits.

The top plate that the scissor joists rest on is only 112 inches tall not 120 as I thought. One regret is that I should have gone with taller garage doors. The 9 ft wide doors (which are a standard width) are great and I would recommend them, but while I don't have any lifted vehicles, 7ft tall doors are a limiting factor.

First Pic includes scale figure. Second Pic shows the lift towers just fitting under the peak.

I definitely recommend a follow the roofline garage door which allows you to open or close the garage door while a vehicle is up on the lift.




Someday I will have $$ for insulation and a mini split.

 

[xr4x4ti]

@Wiz02 Thanks for the great info.

 

[xr4x4ti]

I am still laying out concepts before finalizing the plans. I got some quotes for the concrete work that were not deal breakers, so I am moving forward.

But, this won't be cheap and I am obsessing about the layout to make sure I don't end up with a something that doesn't work. I have to work with the existing side setback and distance to the existing garage.

I have two competing designs currently. Both concept have two lifts and some fab space for my lathe, mill, welding table etc. First is where one lift is accessed via the existing garage and the other via a side entrance. The distance from the side of the garage to the property line is about 20ft with a 16ft door. Main shop is 30x40, breezeway is 24X20.


Second concept has both lifts accessed from the side, distance to property line is 23ft, two 12 ft doors. Shop is 30x36 and breezeway is 24X24.

My concern is the side entrance and the tight turning radius even though that is primarily for project or hobby cars.

Any feedback?

Thanks in advance,
Tim

 

[CraigStu]

I like the 2nd version better. I would build the doorways and skip the doors between shop and breezeway so you could, if needed, get a car in the breezeway. I am not sure what the various objects are you have shown in the breezeway but maybe the nearly unmovable mill (Blue?) could be swapped w/ the green (welding table?) which would be relatively easy to move. A question is what are your project and hobby cars typically? Mine used to be a cobra replica and now are a Corvette and wife's Mustang so relatively small. So any of mine could get through a 12ft door w/ 23ft to the property line. Yours?

 

[xr4x4ti]

I like the 2nd version better. I would build the doorways and skip the doors between shop and breezeway so you could, if needed, get a car in the breezeway. I am not sure what the various objects are you have shown in the breezeway but maybe the nearly unmovable mill (Blue?) could be swapped w/ the green (welding table?) which would be relatively easy to move. A question is what are your project and hobby cars typically? Mine used to be a cobra replica and now are a Corvette and wife's Mustang so relatively small. So any of mine could get through a 12ft door w/ 23ft to the property line. Yours?

Thanks for the feedback.

After more measuring, staking out the yard and practicing trying to make the turn with my truck and a small car into staked out openings, I decided on a version of the first option with with some improvements. I realized that I could make the breezeway really short, 6ft and get the taller 12ft ceiling as soon as possible. This gets the lift that is accessed from the existing garage very close to the door separating the two and this wastes very little space. I like the idea of having at least one lift with easy access from the street. The side door is a single 16ft unit that allows even my truck to make the turn.

I am getting the plans updated and can share them and my progress with the project if people are interested.

My projects are mostly smaller cars, currently a 2017 Mustang and a Merkur XR4Ti. But a bucket list is to build a GT40 replica and a few other cars.

You can check out my AWD Mustang build on my YouTube Channel http://www.youtube.com/@npvg

Thanks,
Tim