Attic Access Hole Questions

[F451]

Hey guys,

I'm hoping you may be able to give me some input regarding a dispute that we are having with the builder of our new construction, cookie cutter, large development house. 14 months since we occupied the house and we are still battling them over needed fixes and repairs. They are fighting us tooth and nail on every single item, whether they are major, or minor issues (usually by ignoring us and the rest of my neighbors but that is another story).


Specific issue is the location of an attic access hole:
We are asking the builder to move an attic access hole that is currently located in a "guest suite" (bedroom with bath & small walk in closet). Before the house was completed, we asked them specifically not to install an attic access hole in the bedroom part of that guest suite, they said no problem, and of course that is where they installed it.

We would like them to move the access hole into the small walk-in closet in that suite where it is out of sight. Besides aesthetics, the access hole is allowing cold air into that bedroom, its quite a bit colder then the rest of the downstairs area. If the access hole was in the closet the bedroom would be warmer in my opinion.

The builder has been coming up with an ever changing number of reasons why they can't do that, but the latest is that they are claiming that the current location is the only place they can put it due to code requirements, saying there must be so much space above the access hole for fire fighters to access the attic space, and that there won't be enough clearance above the closet space in the attic if they moved it to the closet, and additionally, the fire fighters can't spend time looking around for the access hole, and with the shelving and whatnot in a typical closet it would be dangerous for firefighters.

I pointed out that the upstairs attic access hole is in a laundry room and the opening is very close to the sink counter top and cabinets and its a separate room that they would have to go searching for etc. The builders rep's response was, "Well maybe that is not to code either."

Additional info: this guest suite is on the first floor, there are no mechanical systems above the ceiling. There is another completely separate attic access hole in the laundry room on the second floor that does allow access to the HVAC system that is installed up there.

This is one issue that I realize is relatively minor in the grand scheme of things and I am will to let it go if they can give a "real" reason why they cannot move it. I've got a whole list of other more important fixes that we are fighting them over, but it galls me that we did not get what we paid for when we closed on, and occupied the house. I don't like the feeling of being ripped off and taken advantage of.

Any input of whether the builders explanation is correct would be appreciated.

Please see the next post for pics.

Thanks,

Ed

 

[F451]

Here is the location of the access hole in the main floor "guest suite".

Close up:

The small walk in closet where we would like the access hole moved to, and yes it would involve moving the overhead light. The walk in closet measures roughly 52" x 63" by the way.

Another shot of the closet for reference:

Closet ceiling:

Upstairs laundry room with access hole to HVAC:

Looking up at the laundry room attic access hole, the edge of the sink counter top is roughly in line with the one side of the access hole.

External view of the guest suite, the red arrow shows the approx position of the current access hole, its is roughly inline with the gap between the two windows, shown by the red arrow.

The new location in the closet would roughly position the access hole in line with the green arrow.

 

[vavet]

I can’t offer anything of substance but I feel your pain. Once you’ve closed on the house, the builder has close to zero motivation to fix anything for you.

Here’s a reason...it would cost them money and some of them have boat payments that need to be made.

With such a major transaction, often there are other things hinging on it so they know you can’t refuse to close over minor things. You might have limited time in your current residence because you’re selling it and the closing date is approaching, or you might be renting it and new tenants are scheduled to move in. Perhaps you’re moving in from out of town for a new job. You don’t want to go into an extended stay hotel, especially if you have kids and you don’t want to delay start date of your new job. You don’t wants kids school start date to be affected...etc.

It *****. Good luck.

 

[kossuth]

You’re screwed. They have your money and unless you have the revisions and fixes in a legal document you’ll never get the fix from them Sans going to court. They have your money that’s all they wanted.

 

[michael Mccoy]

I wanted another access to the attic in the garage so I would have an entrance to the attic on the opposite end of the house. I did it myself, its not so difficult.

 

[Dustball]

Hard to tell from your closet picture. What could work against you is which way the trusses are running and does the gap between two of the trusses allow for the opening you want to be relatively centered in the room? Keep in mind clearance between a ladder and the closet shelving. The electrical box for the light is usually attached directly to the truss so that's an indicator that the truss is probably in the way.

 

[James-W]

I am not an attorney so what I am about to say could be all wrong. However, I would think that if the attic access holes were not done to code, then you would have some recourse in this matter. Problem is, to get the builder to correct the problem you would most likely need to hire an attorney and it would end up costing more money than it would be if you just had a carpenter change the attic access holes for you.

 

[PelicanPines]

During my walkthru I made a punch list and my lawyer posted a $10,000 bond from my funds that was ******* till the punch list was completed by the builder. All repairs were done within a month... builder got that remaining ten grand.

In your case... you are on your own. If you want changes... find an actual repair builder...and be ready to pay a fair price for your changes. ... don't use the original builder...

 

[mikegt4]

When I built my house there were specific opening dimensions, head clearance and floor space requirements that needed to be met. That was over 20 years ago and the code is no doubt more stringent now. A call or visit to your building dept. would solve the question of the legality of moving the access. At least you will know if moving it yourself is an option. Take a dimensioned drawing to speed up the process. I agree with you that your hatch is pretty unsightly not being flush with the ceiling.

 

[F451]

Thanks for the input guys, I should have added I told the company rep he was going to have to show me the specific codes that indicate that access hole cannot go where we want it.

Despite their best efforts, I actually have been having success with forcing them to make repairs and corrections on a number of issues. It just has not been easy, or reasonable in my opinion.

 

[PelicanPines]

I have experience with finish carpentry... several of the issues on my walk thru and the first months of ownership were finish issues. I chose to do those myself... figured I could take pride in my repair because I knew my repair would be far better than anybody the builder would send to do the repairs.

I would so do those access doors myself and repair the look and insulation issues. I would also get an opinion from your local building inspector.

My punch list contained things I wanted no part in fixing... scratch on the hard wood floor, missing blower in one fireplace, ceiling fixture in vaulted ceiling hung at a strange height.

 

[F451]

Hard to tell from your closet picture. What could work against you is which way the trusses are running and does the gap between two of the trusses allow for the opening you want to be relatively centered in the room? Keep in mind clearance between a ladder and the closet shelving. The electrical box for the light is usually attached directly to the truss so that's an indicator that the truss is probably in the way.

Good point. The trusses are running in the same direction in the closet as they are in the bedroom area, so the closet ceiling has plenty of room for the opening (not sure if I'm being clear there). I think I will go up there and see where the trusses are relative to the light fixture though. It may or may not be centered/anchored on the truss, I can't remember.

And regarding access to a newly positioned opening, if its not centered in the closet, or the ladder has to be positioned against some shelving, that would not matter to me as it will be out of sight, and I can't imagine when I would ever be accessing that area. There are no mechanicals up there, and we will not be using it for any storage.

 

[F451]

When I built my house there were specific opening dimensions, head clearance and floor space requirements that needed to be met. That was over 20 years ago and the code is no doubt more stringent now. A call or visit to your building dept. would solve the question of the legality of moving the access. At least you will know if moving it yourself is an option. Take a dimensioned drawing to speed up the process. I agree with you that your hatch is pretty unsightly not being flush with the ceiling.

Thanks, that is another step I was considering doing, we had an issue with one of the concrete support piers in the crawl space and the city inspector helped me out with double checking whether or not things were done to code. I'm sure he could tell me if there is any code pertaining to this and whether or not our proposed change would be to code.

 

[F451]

During my walkthru I made a punch list and my lawyer posted a $10,000 bond from my funds that was ******* till the punch list was completed by the builder. All repairs were done within a month... builder got that remaining ten grand.

In your case... you are on your own. If you want changes... find an actual repair builder...and be ready to pay a fair price for your changes. ... don't use the original builder...

I wish we had done something like this as when we did our walk through

 

[fourjeepin]

My last house was a new one, built by a small outfit. I was happy with mine (made sure everything was acceptable prior to closing) but a few of the neighbors were not. One that wasn’t is an attorney and he made yard signs for anyone that wanted one. It said “ask my opinion of my Harris/Lynam home”. I wish I had a picture as these were on 4x8 sheets of plywood in several yards. They couldn’t sell anything until they made these folks happy. Of course, this only works if the builder is still working in the neighborhood and you make sure it is legal. My neighbor had the part if the code stating the signs were legal on the back of each one.

 

[DGersic]

My last house was a new one, built by a small outfit. I was happy with mine (made sure everything was acceptable prior to closing) but a few of the neighbors were not. One that wasn’t is an attorney and he made yard signs for anyone that wanted one. It said “ask my opinion of my Harris/Lynam home”. I wish I had a picture as these were on 4x8 sheets of plywood in several yards. They couldn’t sell anything until they made these folks happy. Of course, this only works if the builder is still working in the neighborhood and you make sure it is legal. My neighbor had the part if the code stating the signs were legal on the back of each one.

I love this. I assume it worked pretty quickly too.



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[bczygan]

All agreements in real estate (And everything else, really.) should be in writing.

And MUST be, to be enforceable!

Bill

 

[specj]

unless they are two separate attics that do not connect, why not just seal off the attic access in the bedroom and be done with it? Optionally, you can always buy one of those insulated attic covers for the opening

 

[DGersic]

Unfortunately, once you’ve closed, the builder is done and gone. It’s too late now, but don’t close until you’re happy, or force the issue with an escrow account to keep them with some skin in the game.

You’ll have to forgive your wife.

Her friend the realtor, though, is fair game. Can you get her to apply some leverage on this builder? The only way you’re going to get him to do anything is to start costing him more money than whatever it is you want him to do. If he can’t sell houses because the local realtor won’t show them, you’ll hear from him.

Or hire a lawyer and take him to court. Or small claims, without a lawyer, if you’ve got time to kill and nothing more important to do.



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[F451]

unless they are two separate attics that do not connect, why not just seal off the attic access in the bedroom and be done with it? Optionally, you can always buy one of those insulated attic covers for the opening

They are two separate spaces unfortunately. I would love to just seal of this opening but can't.

 

[MattT]

Thanks, that is another step I was considering doing, we had an issue with one of the concrete support piers in the crawl space and the city inspector helped me out with double checking whether or not things were done to code. I'm sure he could tell me if there is any code pertaining to this and whether or not our proposed change would be to code.

If you're covered by recent building and/or energy codes the inspector might be able to help get the leaky access fixed.

Code is probably going to prevent you moving the access to the closet though.

 

[Smokeem]

On the attic access it is regulated by code. Code states that the attic access size for an attic is 22”x30” with 30” headroom above the access and located where readily accessible. If you need the code section I can give it to you just need to know which code cycle you are on. I have seen and passed plenty of houses that have had the access in bedrooms. It’s actually one of the only places in these new smaller homes where they can get the required size and headroom. If you get into the code commentary it doesn’t talk about locating the accesses in hallways but usually with truss layout and wiring they almost never work out. Code also does state that you need access to all attic areas unless the area is less than 30 sq ft. To solve the cold penetrating through the access adhere some R38 (or your areas required attic R value) to the top side of the access lid. A lot of insulation guys around here will use one of the insulation bags and put it over the insulation and staple it to the lid. Makes for a real nice access when the insulation stays on there when you open them.


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[mark#3]

I have the same type of attic access hole, only it is flush with the ceiling by way of a lip that the hole cover rests on.On the attic side of the hole cover there is 4" or so of insulation.That keeps the cold air draft from entering the living level.When I want to get in the attic, I use a ladder, push the cover up in the attic, then get in the attic.If you want a picture, send me your email address

 

[jmarkwolf]

A tactic of builders, at least around here, is to drag their feet until after the new home warranty expires (18 months) to fix their sloppiness, and then say so solly cholly.

Neighbors have had to get lawyers involved to remedy.

 

[CraigStu]

Personally I think you are over doing this. I understand it is one of many problems but I'd just let this one go. Figure a way to insulate it better and move on. Along those lines all attic access doors I have seen are flush w/ the ceiling. They make a narrow cut in the drywall to remove it and open up the required area. now you have a piece of drywall about 1/8 inch smaller than the hole in both directions. They cut 4 pieces of window trim and install it on the edges of the hole so that the trim over hangs the hole by 1/2 inch or so. You put the drywall piece up into the attic on a diagonal and move it down so it sits on the edges of the trim. Mine have always had fiberglass insulation just laying on top of the panel. Problem there is all the tiny particles you get to breathe in when you remove it. I like Smokeem's idea of the plastic bag.

 

[steve308]

I'd say move the bed over just a little and hang a mirror over the attic door.

 

[F451]

On the attic access it is regulated by code. Code states that the attic access size for an attic is 22”x30” with 30” headroom above the access and located where readily accessible. If you need the code section I can give it to you just need to know which code cycle you are on. I have seen and passed plenty of houses that have had the access in bedrooms. It’s actually one of the only places in these new smaller homes where they can get the required size and headroom. If you get into the code commentary it doesn’t talk about locating the accesses in hallways but usually with truss layout and wiring they almost never work out. Code also does state that you need access to all attic areas unless the area is less than 30 sq ft. To solve the cold penetrating through the access adhere some R38 (or your areas required attic R value) to the top side of the access lid. A lot of insulation guys around here will use one of the insulation bags and put it over the insulation and staple it to the lid. Makes for a real nice access when the insulation stays on there when you open them.


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Thank you, that's the type of info I was looking for. I'm definitely going to contact the city inspector that I worked with previously, as I mentioned, he was very helpful and easy to deal with.

For the insulation bag on top of the lid, the laundry room lid is done this way, works fine, why they did not do it on the downstairs lid? Cutting corners. Again.

The downstairs lid will be setup like that either by them or me, for sure. Thanks again for the comments.

I have the same type of attic access hole, only it is flush with the ceiling by way of a lip that the hole cover rests on.On the attic side of the hole cover there is 4" or so of insulation.That keeps the cold air draft from entering the living level.When I want to get in the attic, I use a ladder, push the cover up in the attic, then get in the attic.If you want a picture, send me your email address

Thanks, sounds just like my upstairs laundry room access hole, no need for pics, thanks.

A tactic of builders, at least around here, is to drag their feet until after the new home warranty expires (18 months) to fix their sloppiness, and then say so solly cholly.

Neighbors have had to get lawyers involved to remedy.

Exactly what they are doing, although if you fight them long and hard enough they do respond. Slowly.

Personally I think you are over doing this...

I would not argue this point. But I don't like getting taken advantage of and sometimes you have to stand up to bullies and rip off artists. And thanks for the other tips.

 

[logical]

No way that closet is big enough to accomodate it. If it is really cold all you need is a sheet of foam insulation above the drywall "hatch"

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[F451]

No way that closet is big enough to accomodate it. If it is really cold all you need is a sheet of foam insulation above the drywall "hatch"

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Additional insulation over the hatch is only going to do so much, but yes we will be adding additional insulation to the lid and even more insulation to the attic area if necessary, which I think it is.

 

[Dustball]

I have the same type of attic access hole, only it is flush with the ceiling by way of a lip that the hole cover rests on.On the attic side of the hole cover there is 4" or so of insulation.That keeps the cold air draft from entering the living level.When I want to get in the attic, I use a ladder, push the cover up in the attic, then get in the attic.If you want a picture, send me your email address

Thanks, sounds just like my upstairs laundry room access hole, no need for pics, thanks.

He's talking about putting window or door trim flat against the ceiling to hold up the panel.

 

[F451]

He's talking about putting window or door trim flat against the ceiling to hold up the panel.

Thanks for the pics!

 

[BillK]

I didnt read all of the replies and if you didnt have in writing in the contract it probably wont happen.

That being said . . . one of our attic access hatches is in our bedroom closet. That is the biggest pain in the arz that you could probably have. After being here for 40 years I am sure you can guess at how full of stuff the closet shelf is. Not to mention clothes in the closet etc. Well last year our automatic attic exhaust fan decided to half give it up in the middle of the night. What a pain in the rear to get up there to turn it off.

I would rather have the hatch in the bedroom. Yours actually does not look bad at all in my opinion and if it is leaking cold air some simple weatherstripping should take care of it.

 

[Viper98912]

Unfortunately yes, the only time you'll really get anything done is when you continue to hold back on the closing. Since you're the buyer, NOBODY gets paid unless you come to the table (realtors, attorneys, banks, everybody is hit unless you sign that dotted line).

If you are retired, then by all means drag this out as long as possible. You can MAKE this your job

Regarding the agreement of moving the access hole, unfortunately that's the difference between the salesperson and the actual subs who do the work. They've built this plan numerous times - the subs are just on autopilot.

I personally think that access hole is hideous - I've almost always seen them in closets. And most of the time, they are flush with trim so it somewhat blends in to the ceiling so you get used to it over time. Yours looks like they just put a piece of drywall on top of the joist.

 

[LifeLongWNYer]

As a long-time volunteer firefighter, who has been to a number of fires in attics, IN MY EXPERIENCE, when we enter a room which we think would give us good access to the fire, we MAKE a hole. We have very technical tools, such as "pike poles" and axes, which will very quickly make a hole on most ceilings.

Even when an access hatch is provided, it generally is not large enough to be useful to us.




.

 

[Vintage Veloce]

there are no mechanical systems above the ceiling...
Just plug it then. The fire department will use their axe to make a hole wherever they want it...

 

[Jinks]

We had a single story house rebuilt to add a second floor. The builder turned out to be a little sleazy, & a lot stupid. He kept trying to get me to agree to things I didn't want. He'd claim surfaces couldn't be matched, it was easier, take less time, etc. I'd tell him no, & he'd insist. On each issue I told him to handle it the best way for him, but I would not sign a change order. He made multiple mistakes & had to do most things three times. That gets expensive & he had no change orders to cover the costs. There were two reasonably serious problems, & a few minor ones by the time he finished. I considered taking him to court over the serious problems, but realized that even if I won it would be the same people making the repairs. It came down to more time with unwilling, incompetent builders or fixing things myself or with competent workers. I chose to get rid of the builder & fix things on my own. Our home is now as complete as any home ever is, & is done the way I wanted. Ridding myself of the aggravation of working with an unwilling, incompetent builder was worth the extra cost. YMMV

 

[F451]

Thanks for all the continued input guys. I've decided to calm down and just contact the city inspector Monday and get the facts on any code req's they may have (which is what I should have done in the first place). He is very familiar with our development, and I think I mentioned previously, he was very helpful with a question I had about our home.

If he tells me it is ok to put the access hole in that closet, I will stay on the builder about it, if the builder refuses, I'll do it myself.

Or, if the city inspector tells me it must stay where it is, I'll see about having the builder tidy up the opening & insulation. If they refuse, I'll do it myself.

Most important is to stay calm, I was doing pretty good until recently, life is too short.

The good news is they have made a bunch of repairs and corrections already, and are scheduled to do a few more pretty significant repairs.

I'll keep you all posted. Thanks again. -Ed

 

[F451]

<snips>
If you are retired, then by all means drag this out as long as possible. You can MAKE this your job <snips>

I AM retired. And this HAS been my full time job! And I'm sick of it! Lol.

That is one of the things I read our rep the riot act about, that this has become my full time job trying to get them to do these corrections and I'm getting tired of it!

I told the guy this was supposed to be my wife's dream house and its turned into my nightmare house.

To his credit, he gets it now and is trying his best to help us. Not so much earlier. I gotta give the poor guy credit where its due. I would not want his job dealing with stone breakers like me.

 

[toolmiser]

You can insulate and weather strip you current access to make it air tight. I intentionally put ours in a spare bedroom. I retrofitted a Styrofoam box above the hatch made of multiple layers of foam. I added a second hatch on top attached to plywood with handles to secure it down. It tested great when we had a blower door test done.

 

[brownbagg]

wait till they get done, and then do what you want, fire fighter not going through attic, they are going chainsaw the roof