Auto-Cle

[Private Lugnutz]

I'm not completely up to speed on the Q.M.S. Auto-Cle but it appears those only have the patent dates & the word "Patented" instead of a serial number.

That's correct and the patent dates are not French or British, they are for the US patent and patent reissue, helping to show the succession, and indicating production in the US, instead of France, as described on the first thread.

I'm comparing differences I can find on the older version from England & France...[ ]...the earlier French version & the version from England.

I bet it’s the French version.

Three different manufacturers...

Who are the three manufacturers?

I am tracking Contal's two companies (Société Anonyme L'Auto-Cle, and later, "L'outillage Contal") in France.

We've been thinking that the "the version from England" or "the British version" was manufactured in England, but I am not so sure. What does "Your England Auto-Cle" mean? The set that Farmer J. owns - and if I am following more recent developments correctly, apparently Patrick has an example now, too - has a British patent number on the badge, but the patent marking on the ratchet itself refers to the French patent and the marking is in French and perfectly consistent - except for the type of die used to stamp the S/N - with Ben's. There's nothing English about it.

The sets sold in France (which we know about only from trade journals) were unquestionably manufactured in France. The sets ostensibly sold in England supported by the British patent (which we know about from trade journals and collected examples) may have also been made in France and exported to England. I would bet the ratchet was, at the very least. Why would a British mfgr making the ratchet under license from Contal in England mark the unit with a French patent, in French, and a Contal S/N?

The US versions - first R.A.C., then Q.M.S., then Mossberg, appear to have been made here in the US. No French markings. Markings only in English, referring to US patents. Mfgr is unknown. Could be R.A.C. and Q.M.S., but there are reasons to doubt that.

If we're going to do this here, not the first thread, we probably need a good timeline chart and maybe a table to organize the data. I have enough interest to do both, but not immediately or soon.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Your England Auto-Cle has what looks like a standard screw in the handle near the top. Mine doesn't have this (comparison pics below).

The Q.M.S. versions don't have a screw, either. So whatever that is (and it may not be original), it's not a linear progression (from no screw to screw). Does yours have a pin?

 

[AntiqueBen]

That's correct and the patent dates are not French or British, they are for the US patent and patent reissue, helping to show the succession, and indicating production in the US, instead of France, as described on the first thread.



Who are the three manufacturers?

I am tracking Contal's two companies (Société Anonyme L'Auto-Cle, and later, "L'outillage Contal") in France.

We've been thinking that the "the version from England" or "the British version" was manufactured in England, but I am not so sure. The set that Farmer J. owns - and if I am following more recent developments correctly, apparently Patrick has an example now, too - has a British patent number on the badge, but the patent marking on the ratchet itself refers to the French patent and the marking is in French and perfectly consistent - except for the type of die used to stamp the S/N - with Ben's.

The sets sold in France (which we know about only from trade journals) were unquestionably manufactured in France. The sets ostensibly sold in England supported by the British patent (which we know about from trade journals and collected examples) may have also been made in France and exported to England. I would bet the ratchet was, at the very least. Why would a British mfgr making the ratchet under license from Contal in England mark the unit with a French patent, in French, and a Contal S/N?

The US versions - first R.A.C., then Q.M.S., then Mossberg, appear to have been made here in the US. No French markings. Markings only in English, referring to US patents. Mfgr is unknown. Could be R.A.C. and Q.M.S., but there are reasons to doubt that.

If we're going to do this here, not the first thread, we probably need a good timeline chart and maybe a table to organize the data. I have enough interest to do both, but not immediately or soon.

I think when Patrick mentioned 3 different ratchets he was referring to 1) Q.M.S. (US) 2) England version 3) French version. Especially since we have discovered multiple differences between the England & French versions. You read my mind Lugz. I've already started putting together the information on the differences between the French & England versions. This way it will help distinguish between the two. Once I get it together I will be posting it. You & Patrick could maybe help with the Q.M.S. version since I don't have that set.

 

[AntiqueBen]

The Q.M.S. versions don't have a screw, either. So whatever that is (and it may not be original), it's not a linear progression (from no screw to screw). Does yours have a pin?

No. Mine doesn't have a pin or a screw. Definitely a difference in construction.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

1) Q.M.S. (US)

Railway Appliances Company was his first licensee here, then Q.M.S., and I am not convinced either was the OEM.

2) England version 3) French version.

Again, if you're talking just about the ratchets, I don't think this is the safest terminology. Again, the ratchets in the sets with the British patent number on a badge, on the box, bear the same French patent marking, in French, that your ratchet has. Other than a lower S/N and what I would consider minor construction differences that could easily be attributed to modifications that Contal's company was making, they sure look like French Auto-Cle ratchets to me.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

@Farmer J. - when you catch up here, if you catch up here, do you recall or can you see from existing photos if your ratchet has a pin or screw in it at the top?

 

[AntiqueBen]

Railway Appliances Company was his first licensee here, then Q.M.S., and I am not convinced either was the OEM.

Again, if you're talking just about the ratchets, I don't think this is the safest terminology. Again, the ratchets in the sets with the British patent number on a badge, on the box, bear the same French patent marking, in French, that your ratchet has. Other than a lower S/N and what I would consider minor construction differences that could easily be attributed to modifications that Contal's company was making, they sure look like French Auto-Cle ratchets to me.

Once I have everything put together it will also include differences on the box & sockets as well. I'll be interested to know your opinion once I post everything.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Sorry. Confusing question removed. I look forward to seeing your table. I started something in Excel. I may finish it anyway, maybe we take different approaches.

 

[AntiqueBen]

Do "the French ratchets" (i.e., with the French patent marking and what is undoubtedly a Contal S/N) have the 1/2 inch square drive opening in the **** end?

That's interesting that you bring this up. A standard 1/2" plug will not fit into the end of my ratchet (not even close). So my original drive plug is smaller than a 1/2" but obviously larger than 3/8." Will a 1/2" drive plug fit yours?

 

[AntiqueBen]

Three different manufacturers and surprisingly three different rachets.

Can you verify if a 1/2" drive plug will fit into the end of your ratchet from England?

 

[Private Lugnutz]

A standard 1/2" plug will not fit into the end of my ratchet (not even close). So my original drive plug is smaller than a 1/2" but obviously larger than 3/8." Will a 1/2" drive plug fit yours?

Yes, the opening in the end of the ratchet in the Q.M.S. set is 1/2-inch square and that is the size of both male drive tangs on the universal joint and both ends of the long extension. My Q.M.S. set did not come with a drive plug (it was missing from its customary spot in the box), and I don't physically have one, so please describe the drive plug in your set more explicitly. What is the size of the opening in the end of your ratchet? What is the size of the drive plug that inserts into that opening? (Those figures should be the same.) I am assuming the other end of the drive plug is 1/2-inch to accommodate the sockets. How do the universal joint and extension in those sets engage the sockets, which have 1/2-inch openings? Is the socket end 1/2-inch and the other end the size of the opening in the ratchet?

 

[AntiqueBen]

Yes, the opening in the end of the ratchet in the Q.M.S. set is 1/2-inch square and that is the size of both male drive tangs on the universal joint and both ends of the long extension. My Q.M.S. set did not come with a drive plug (it was missing from its customary spot in the box), and I don't physically have one, so please describe the drive plug in your set more explicitly. What is the size of the opening in the end of your ratchet? What is the size of the drive plug that inserts into that opening? (Those figures should be the same.) I am assuming the other end of the drive plug is 1/2-inch to accommodate the sockets. How do the universal joint and extension in those sets engage the sockets, which have 1/2-inch openings? Is the socket end 1/2-inch and the other end the size of the opening in the ratchet?

I'll have to get the exact measurement on the my ratchet & drive plug. I just tried a 1/2" drive plug in my sockets & it's the same as the ratchet, it won't fit. My extension & universal joint fits all the sockets & ratchet. So none of my sockets are 1/2" either. Quite the revelation.

 

[AntiqueBen]

Yes, the opening in the end of the ratchet in the Q.M.S. set is 1/2-inch square and that is the size of both male drive tangs on the universal joint and both ends of the long extension. My Q.M.S. set did not come with a drive plug (it was missing from its customary spot in the box), and I don't physically have one, so please describe the drive plug in your set more explicitly. What is the size of the opening in the end of your ratchet? What is the size of the drive plug that inserts into that opening? (Those figures should be the same.) I am assuming the other end of the drive plug is 1/2-inch to accommodate the sockets. How do the universal joint and extension in those sets engage the sockets, which have 1/2-inch openings? Is the socket end 1/2-inch and the other end the size of the opening in the ratchet?

Here is a pic of my drive plug measurement. So this would be the same measurement on my extension & universal joint. This is why the 1/2" plug won't fit my ratchet or sockets.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

So none of my sockets are 1/2" either. Quite the revelation...[ ]...This is why the 1/2" plug won't fit my ratchet or sockets.

Okay, but at least it's not asymmetric. That's what was throwing me. If the sockets were 1/2-inch drive, all the handles would have to be asymmetric ended. All the male tangs and the female openings are the same drive size and interchangeable, it's just not 1/2-inch drive; it appears to be 7/16-inch drive. It'll be interesting to see if Farmer J.'s and Patrick's set's are 7/16-inch drive or 1/2-inch drive.

 

[AntiqueBen]

Okay, but at least it's not asymmetric. All the male tangs and the female openings are the same drive size and interchangeable, it's just not 1/2-inch drive; it appears to be 7/16-inch drive. It'll be interesting to see if Farmer J.'s and Patrick's set's are 7/16-inch drive or 1/2-inch drive.

Yes. I've asked Patrick if a 1/2" plug will fit his ratchet. I'm anxious to find out.

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

Two different sizes. Us is 1/2, England is smaller

 

[AntiqueBen]

Two different sizes. Us is 1/2, England is smaller

So, 1/2" won't fit any of the sockets in your set from England?

 

[Private Lugnutz]

What engages the screwdriver bits? Mine is missing the drive plug.

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

So, 1/2" won't fit any of the sockets in your set from England?

Oh no. Very different

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

What engages the screwdriver bits? Mine is missing the drive plug.

It has a flat spot on the shaft of the bit that mates with the hole in the plug. Also take a look at the so called mossberg set that I linked a few post above

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

It has a flat spot on the shaft of the bit that mates with the hole in the plug. Also take a look at the so called mossberg set that I linked a few post above

I know you told me you don’t do eBay. If you want me to grab that set I’ll trade you something for the drive plug and screw driver bit

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

Antique 1910s Frank Mossberg? Socket Set Wood Box Ratchet Extension Multi-angle | eBay

The set is heavy. The toolset with box weighs close to 9 lbs. Antique 1910s Frank Mossberg?. Socket Set Wood Box Ratchet Extensions.

www.ebay.com

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

Antique 1910s Frank Mossberg? Socket Set Wood Box Ratchet Extension Multi-angle | eBay

The set is heavy. The toolset with box weighs close to 9 lbs. Antique 1910s Frank Mossberg?. Socket Set Wood Box Ratchet Extensions.

www.ebay.com

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I have the screwdriver bits. I don't have the drive plug, hence the questions. It's not as conventional as you guys think, and you're not being explicit about its operation. So, the drive tangs on either end of the drive plug are the same size. One end has a tapered hole in it, the other doesn't. When you want to use the drive plug to drive the sockets, you plug the end with the hole into the ratchet. When you want to turn the screwdriver bits, you turn it around and plug the drive end into the ratchet. Yes?

 

[AntiqueBen]

I have the screwdriver bits. I don't have the drive plug, hence the questions. It's not as conventional as you guys think, and you're not being explicit about its operation. So, the drive tangs on either end of the drive plug are the same size. One end has a tapered hole in it, the other doesn't. When you want to use the drive plug to drive the sockets, you plug the end with the hole into the ratchet. When you want to turn the screwdriver bits, you turn it around and plug the drive end into the ratchet. Yes?

My set did not come with the screwdriver bits so I can't speak to their specifics, but what you just described sounds accurate.

 

[AntiqueBen]

I know you told me you don’t do eBay. If you want me to grab that set I’ll trade you something for the drive plug and screw driver bit

Be careful. If the one on eBay is an older set with the 7/16 drive plug, then it won't fit Lugz 1/2" US set.

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

I have the screwdriver bits. I don't have the drive plug, hence the questions. It's not as conventional as you guys think, and you're not being explicit about its operation. So, the drive tangs on either end of the drive plug are the same size. One end has a tapered hole in it, the other doesn't. When you want to use the drive plug to drive the sockets, you plug the end with the hole into the ratchet. When you want to turn the screwdriver bits, you turn it around and plug the drive end into the ratchet. Yes?

The drive tangs are identical but one end has a hole in it. The hole has a flat spot inside to keep the bit from spinning

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

I have the screwdriver bits. I don't have the drive plug, hence the questions. It's not as conventional as you guys think, and you're not being explicit about its operation. So, the drive tangs on either end of the drive plug are the same size. One end has a tapered hole in it, the other doesn't. When you want to use the drive plug to drive the sockets, you plug the end with the hole into the ratchet. When you want to turn the screwdriver bits, you turn it around and plug the drive end into the ratchet. Yes?

Yes to your question

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Yes to your question

Thanks. (As a sign of old age - and the hazards of splitting topics into splintering threads - I see that Farmer J. already answered my question about the bits on the initial thread.)

On your proposal, I need a drive plug and a few sockets, and I would hope to cannibalize them from a partial set I run into in the wild one day, or by trade, the way most of my early wood box socket sets have been completed, but frankly, I don't want to be any part of you paying $125 for that set on eBay, which is about $100 more than I would pay for it.

The thing about these early pre-Mossberg Auto-Cle sets is nobody knows much about them. We were actually in the vanguard discussing them in the earlier thread and we're still in the vanguard now. AA doesn't even mention anything prior to Mossberg glomming onto Q.M.S. They don't know about R.A.C. at all, and they pay little to no attention to the idea that they were being made and sold in France and England before Q.M.S./Mossberg. This is all interesting and virtuous and fun, but it's also quirky and niche-y. Even if that set was clean and complete with a ratchet and a legible Q.M.S. Motor Parts Co. decal on the lid it wouldn't be that valuable, in my opinion.

 

[AntiqueBen]

Thanks.

On your proposal, I need a drive plug and a few sockets, and I would hope to cannibalize them from a partial set I run into in the wild one day, or by trade, the way most of my early wood box socket sets have been completed, but frankly, I don't want to be any part of you paying $125 for that set on eBay, which is about $100 more than I would pay for it.

The thing about these early pre-Mossberg Auto-Cle sets is nobody knows much about them. We were actually in the vanguard discussing them in the earlier thread and we're still in the vanguard now. AA doesn't even mention anything prior to Mossberg glomming onto Q.M.S. They don't know about R.A.C. at all, and they pay little to no attention to the idea that they were being made and sold in France and England before Q.M.S./Mossberg. This is all interesting and virtuous and fun, but it's also quirky and niche-y. Even if that set was clean and complete with a ratchet and a legible Q.M.S. Motor Parts Co. decal on the lid it wouldn't be that valuable, in my opinion.

I've always liked learning the history of a tool. For me, it's not about a tools value. It's about learning it's history with the intent of telling it's story. Some tools, like Auto-Cle, can be challenging to figure out. I am optimistic that we can make some ground on better understanding pre-Mossberg Auto-Cle sets. What's in our favor is we potentially have 3 different sets (Q.M.S. - England - French) here between us to compare against each other. We have already discovered some interesting things that is not documented anywhere else. I'll be posting all the information up to this point soon in an easy to understand format that will highlight what we know. In the end, hopefully we'll all know more about Auto-Cle's story.

 

[AntiqueBen]

The Q.M.S. versions don't have a screw, either. So whatever that is (and it may not be original), it's not a linear progression (from no screw to screw). Does yours have a pin?

Any idea yet on what purpose the screw or pin in the handle serves? Does it have something to do with the mechanism?

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

I've always liked learning the history of a tool. For me, it's not about a tools value. It's about learning it's history with the intent of telling it's story. Some tools, like Auto-Cle, can be challenging to figure out. I am optimistic that we can make some ground on better understanding pre-Mossberg Auto-Cle sets. What's in our favor is we potentially have 3 different sets (Q.M.S. - England - French) here between us to compare against each other. We have already discovered some interesting things that is not documented anywhere else. I'll be posting all the information up to this point soon in an easy to understand format that will highlight what we know. In the end, hopefully we'll all know more about Auto-Cle's story.

I have been looking at a Mossberg box online. It is fully marked Auto-Cle. Its very much like the QMS. The RAC has me curious. The set onlilne is set up very similar to the over seas variety and from the pic is appears the accessories are indeed smaller than 1/2"

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I've always liked learning the history of a tool. For me, it's not about a tools value. It's about learning it's history with the intent of telling it's story.

If you've seen any of my posts on many subjects and many threads, hopefully it should go without saying that my approach is the same. But acquisition is a part of the hobby. Without examples, we have nothing. And understanding that this entire pre-Mossberg era is still obscure to the collecting world is important to value, going rates, etc.

Any idea yet on what purpose the screw or pin in the handle serves? Does it have something to do with the mechanism?

Other than constructive (holding it together), I doubt it on the pin. It does move (pop, just a little) when the unit ratchets. If Patrick is feeling inquisitive, he could carefully turn his screw out.

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

If you've seen any of my posts on many subjects and many threads, hopefully it should go without saying that my approach is the same. But acquisition is a part of the hobby. Without examples, we have nothing. And understanding that this entire pre-Mossberg era is still obscure to the collecting world is important to value, going rates, etc.

Other than constructive (holding it together), I doubt it on the pin. It does move (pop, just a little) when the unit ratchets. If Patrick is feeling inquisitive, he could carefully turn his screw out.

My concern is it being spring loaded and popping all to pieces. "All the kings horses and all the kings men"

 

[Private Lugnutz]

My concern is it being spring loaded and popping all to pieces. "All the kings horses and all the kings men"

I don't blame you.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Here is a good example of why I am preaching caution on creating a named taxonomy of variants (i.e., "French," "British," "Q.M.S.," etc) too soon. In preparation for creating a better timeline, and in the process of double-checking all my previous research, when I first uncovered R.A.C. as Contal's initial US agency, and the progression of the French to British to US patents, I discovered a company called George P. Moore selling the Auto-Cle as early as June 1905. Before R.A.C. claimed to have sole rights for manufacturing it here in the US. I believe the Geo. P. Moore sets would have probably been straight imports, and therefore, 7/16-inch drive - just like the so-called "French" and "British" sets. In fact, you can see that the construction features on the extension and drive plug is exactly like the set FarmerJ. has and the sets you guys subsequently purchased in/from England. Being sold here, in the US! Hence, my resistance to geographical designations.

 

[AntiqueBen]

Here is a good example of why I am preaching caution on creating a named taxonomy of variants (i.e., "French," "British," "Q.M.S.," etc) too soon. In preparation for creating a better timeline, and in the process of double-checking all my previous research, when I first uncovered R.A.C. as Contal's initial US agency, and the progression of the French to British to US patents, I discovered a company called George P. Moore selling the Auto-Cle as early as June 1905. Before R.A.C. claimed to have sole rights for manufacturing it here in the US. I believe the Geo. P. Moore sets would have probably been straight imports, and therefore, 7/16-inch drive - just like the so-called "French" and "British" sets. In fact, you can see that the construction features on the extension and drive plug is exactly like the set FarmerJ. has and the sets you guys subsequently purchased in/from England. Being sold here, in the US! Hence, my resistance to geographical designations.

I agree that Auto-Cle is still very obscure & most people no nothing about them. I think what I want to do is point out the differences of the ones we have & add what confirmed historical facts we know to at least "start" some kind of history or timeline. Of course we certainly don't know the whole story, and probably never will, but I believe we have enough information to at least start a historical look into Auto-Cle's story. We have to start somewhere & I believe we have & know enough to at least get the ball rolling. Good find Lugz on the George P. Moore angle. I agree. Probably imported which would look like the pre-US 7/16 versions.

 

[AntiqueBen]

My concern is it being spring loaded and popping all to pieces. "All the kings horses and all the kings men"

".... couldn't put Auto-Cle back together again" I don't blame you either.

 

[Farmer J.]

@Farmer J. - when you catch up here, if you catch up here, do you recall or can you see from existing photos if your ratchet has a pin or screw in it at the top?

Well, i'm still catching up with all the galloping posting .! But meantime:

- I don't remember if my set had a pin or screw in the ratchet, but I can certainly have a look and check when I next go to Shuttleworth.

- From correspondence with Dominique, biographer of Camille Contal and the author of the 'Les Tricars' website, I reckon that Contal had capacity to easily manufacture these kits in Britain as well as in France. This statement does not preclude the possibility that just the ratchets were all made in France and shipped to Britain.

- I have no idea exactly where the French and British sets were manufactured, possibly the making of the components was contracted out.

- I suggest that before investing too much time in wide ranging detailed research it would be worthwhile to contact Dominique for information, via the 'Les Tricars' website.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I think what I want to do is point out the differences of the ones we have & add what confirmed historical facts we know to at least "start" some kind of history or timeline. Of course we certainly don't know the whole story, and probably never will, but I believe we have enough information to at least start a historical look into Auto-Cle's story. We have to start somewhere & I believe we have & know enough to at least get the ball rolling.

We have way more than just a start to the historical timeline, Ben. That was actually pretty well nailed down back in 2020 on the first thread. That's still the only place on the internet where you can find anything cogent related to Auto-Cle production before Mossberg got involved. (According to AA, nothing existed prior to Q.M.S., which they read as Mossberg, anyway.) I can elaborate on it a little more now, and we all could benefit from a diagram (I am working on it), which is handier to view than info spread out over several posts. We even started loosely mapping sets to the timeline there as well, including Farmer J.'s "British patent" set and my Q.M.S. set, which continued with you posting your acquisition of a set with a lower S/N on the ratchet than the ratchet in J.'s set last year. And yes, we are absolutely on the right track to identify variants by annotating differences, such as the screw/pin, the lack of it, the OAL of the ratchet, and of course, that minor issue of the drive size!

I'm just cautioning against drawing too many conclusions too fast about the variants, naming the variants, and correlating those names to the timeline. Keep in mind that from mid 1903 to early 1904, a matter of only 8 months, the French patent was issued, the article introducing L'Auto-Cle appeared in La Vie Automobile, the British patent was issued, and the US patent was issued. Auto-Cle ads started showing up in US trade journals a year later.

The one thing I do think we can use indelible pen on is the switch from 7/16-inch drive to 1/2-inch drive being tied to US domestic production. That big picture variation is very likely.