Stubby1743
Well-known member
This set was part of my fathers tool kit in the Royal Navy. Does anyone have any idea who the maker M.B.H. was?
B.A. Spanners (Wrenches)
- Thread starter Stubby1743
- Start date
This set was part of my fathers tool kit in the Royal Navy. Does anyone have any idea who the maker M.B.H. was?
OP
Stubby1743
Well-known member
More from my fathers tool kit. Again, has anyone any info on the makers H.T.&S. and Rowan?
RTM
Well-known member
They might be Hammond Turner & Sons. From this link
Trade directories
hammond-turner.com
Companies House 1903 – 1937
Hammond Turner & Sons Limited was registered 1903 and the company operated under this name until 1937 when it was purchased by Lion Works Ltd
There was a silver plate maker by those same initials. This page seems to focus on button makers. But stamping out metal shapes like wrenches doesn’t seem too far afield.
Edit:
Obviously not, per more local expertise below.
Last edited:
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Love to see all those British M.O.D. broadarrows and 1943 stamps, Stubby! Lock and key glass display case worthy spanner set!
Dave455
Well-known member
H.T. & S are Herbert Terry and Sons.
More from my fathers tool kit. Again, has anyone any info on the makers H.T.&S. and Rowan?
They made that style of spanner for years, and were probably the biggest maker of them.
As well as ”ignition” work these little spanners were quite useful in instrument work where you were often working with half nuts at low torques.
Herbert Terry and Son’s are still going, although they just call themselves “Terry’s” now. I don’t think they make these spanners as standard any more, although they did till fairly recently. They make hose clips, spring clips, and pretty much every sort of clip!
Dave455
Well-known member
I’m not sure who “Rowen” were, but I have seen a lot of similar tools bearing that name. They all seem to date from just before, or just after the war.
They made numerous little sets of folding spanners, individual spanners, and I think combination tools for the forces.
Some of the small spanners are much higher quality than is usually found.
They made numerous little sets of folding spanners, individual spanners, and I think combination tools for the forces.
Some of the small spanners are much higher quality than is usually found.
Dave455
Well-known member
Oh dear!
That’s about a third of my regular use tools stuck behind glass then!
I have tools in use dating back to the First World War!
As a matter of interest, the “Broadarrow” (or “Pheon”) to give it’s correct name) doesn’t denote military property, but rather government property. It’s a big distinction, often overlooked.
The first users were surveyors, as the mark could easily be chiselled into stone with three strokes. You can still find “benchmarks” (a pheon with a horizontal bar representing a level) on buildings and walls.
As an ex government employee, I have a lot of things so marked (all acquired quite legitimately, if cheaply) - everything from tools to furniture!
The Ministry of Defence wasn’t formed till 1964, so wartime tools would have been property of the Admiralty, War Office, or Air Ministry, and marked accordingly.
It is still an offence to apply the Pheon if not authorised to do so. This is because the government insisted on certain standards, and the mark became a guarantee of a certain quality.
It was also applied to weights and measures that had been inspected, so in this regard was treated much like a Hallmark on precious metal, or a proof mark on a gun barrel.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Figure of speech to express my esteem for them, Dave.
I have some as old as the Civil War, but I'm of the mind they've earned their retirement in a high and dry place of honor, I wouldn't dream of using any of them, and certainly not my father's, a WWII vet, when newer tools will get the same job done. I respect other approaches, and expect the same in return. There is no objective right or wrong on this matter.
Have you never "visited" the Lugzsonian?! See the link in my signature.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Anachronistic force of habit from my own service, a good span of which was spent across the pond at Menwith Hill, Dave. Stubby already identified the use case as Navy. Thanks for the reminder.
OP
Stubby1743
Well-known member
Thanks for that. I am very familiar with Terry products and have got, or have had, quite a lot of their stamped spanners. I hadn't realised that they had also used the longer form of their name.
You are correct of course and I do know that. For example, tools used by the GPO (General Post Office who were responsible for the UK telephone system) had their tolls marked with the broad arrow. Thinking that all tools marked with the broad arrow were for military use is an easy trap to fall into and I am certainly guilty of doing so. I think it is fair to say however that the majority of tools with the broad arrow were procured for military use in one of the three armed forces.
Zebedeewesty
Well-known member
I've got a box of my dads small BA spanners from when he was in the Merchant Navy.
This set was part of my fathers tool kit in the Royal Navy. Does anyone have any idea who the maker M.B.H. was?
OP
Stubby1743
Well-known member
These two are interesting. Clearly the same base forging but correctly sized ends.
Dave455
Well-known member
I thought as much!Figure of speech to express my esteem for them, Dave.
I have some as old as the Civil War, but I'm of the mind they've earned their retirement in a high and dry place of honor, I wouldn't dream of using any of them, and certainly not my father's, a WWII vet, when newer tools will get the same job done. I respect other approaches, and expect the same in return. There is no objective right or wrong on this matter.
Have you never "visited" the Lugzsonian?! See the link in my signature.
Yes, I have visited the “Lugsonian”. You’ve done a superb job of collecting, restoring, and displaying those tools!
I’m not, believe it or not, really a tool collector myself. Like yourself, I do have some family tools that I no longer use (for the same reasons as yourself) and few that I collect (predominantly Blackhawk) because they are special to me.
I am, in many respects, envious of Americans, who were able to use the same sized tools for much of the 20th century. For me to work on things of the same vintages, I need Whitworth, SAE and metric tools.
So, if you imagine all the specialist wrenches that most folks acquire over the years, then multiply by three, you can see why I have a lot of tools! Some of them, by nature, are going to be quite old!
Tools and equipment were made in such huge quantities during the war, that it continued to be sold off as “surplus” for decades afterwards, and didn’t really have a great value.
It’s only really in the last few years that I’m seeing things that I own turning up in museum displays, which all feels a bit strange!
Dave455
Well-known member
Yes, same forging, but I assume different broaching.
These two are interesting. Clearly the same base forging but correctly sized ends.
Elora make nice BA sized spanners. Probably my favourites of the modern ones.
OP
Stubby1743
Well-known member
After WW2 the quality of British BA spanners improved a lot. These two King **** and Britool 0BA/2BA spanners make an interesting contrast in style.
OP
Stubby1743
Well-known member
Not sure what these are usually called, but I call them screwdriver sockets. These are 2, 4 & 6BA and have no markings other than the size. To my knowledge they are at least 70 years old.
The screwdriver is a Bridgeport USA one.
OP
Stubby1743
Well-known member
This set is probably a bit too young for inclusion in a vintage tools thread, but people may be interested.
The sizes go from 0-6BA. Strangely, the two largest spanners are 0BA/2BA and 0BA/1/8Whitworth.
The sizes go from 0-6BA. Strangely, the two largest spanners are 0BA/2BA and 0BA/1/8Whitworth.
OP
Stubby1743
Well-known member
This one is a bit odd. Only 82mm long and very over-built for the fasteners it would be used on. The ends are 5mm thick.
It's marked with the sizes on both sides.
Any idea of the maker Dave?
Farmer J.
Well-known member
That's a 'Superslim' made by T Wiliams, Tilton Road, Birmingham.
This one is a bit odd. Only 82mm long and very over-built for the fasteners it would be used on. The ends are 5mm thick.
It's marked with the sizes on both sides.
Any idea of the maker Dave?
I have a collection of them, and the 2BA x 4BA is the only BA one in that model that I can find.
I was intending to get a picture of mine and post it in your thread, but no need now you've posted yours, thanks mate you've saved me getting the camera out!
T Williams Superslim
Inspired by the woodlandhank's display of Williams Superwrenches I am hoping to do something similar with my collection of 'TW Superslim' spanners. I've not used these for 40 years but kept them as the name 'superslim' always amused me, as they're quite fat and clumsy. When these were made T...
www.garagejournal.com
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
I don't know about "fair," but it's certainly what the lads - my colleague WWII collectors in England - say, especially with particular types of tools, like stamped spanners.
Not that different here, Dave. Alot of the Boy Scout equipment of my youth would be considered museum quality stuff now!
Farmer J.
Well-known member
That is a bit of a laugh, when museum exhibits are from one's own lifetime! My kids always joke I should be in the museum too..
My Grandmother often made similar observations, as she lived to be almost 100 and her lifetime spanned from bicycles to the internet. From the use of horses, steam engines and telegram messages, she witnessed the first motor cars, the first aeroplanes, then Concorde supersonic flight and being able to look things up on computer. She did 100mph in the Rover SD1 car on her 80th birthday! We always thought she had witnessed the greatest changes.
Dave455
Well-known member
Yes, although bear in mind that in the past, there were a lot more government establishments than now.
Royal Aircraft Establishments, Royal Ordnance Factories, god knows how many “Research and Development” establishments etc, all of whom were doing a lot more manufacturing than the end users!
Though of course, the Navy, Army and RAF were all considerably bigger than today too.
Dave455
Well-known member
Collectors always want to attribute the greatest importance / value to the things they have.I don't know about "fair," but it's certainly what the lads - my colleague WWII collectors in England - say, especially with particular types of tools, like stamped spanners.
Not that different here, Dave. Alot of the Boy Scout equipment of my youth would be considered museum quality stuff now!
You always see things like “Spitfire” instruments for sale, despite the fact that they were standardised parts, fitted to dozens of different types, and interchanged between them.
Unfortunately, many if the older tools were made to very high standards, and if / when the militaria collectors notice this, they tend to attribute even higher values, to what are, in reality, only surplus tools!
Dave455
Well-known member
Yes, totally agreed!
Sounds like your Gran had quite a life, but then that generation did.
A Great Uncle was born into a world of horse drawn transport, indeed that was the family business. He saw the invention of the car, motorbike, and aeroplane, and learnt to fly on aeroplanes a couple of years old that were already considered outdated.
When, in the 1970’s, he flew a turboprop airliner (on an empty sector, with my Dad in the other seat) the cabin crew asked if he’d flown in the war, and what aircraft. When he replied that he had, and listed types including the “FE2B” and the “Pup” nobody knew what they were, or even realised he had flown in the FIRST World War.
So rapid had been the advancement, that it was scarcely believable it had all taken place in one lifetime.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Well, some, especially in Europe, were not sold as surplus, but lost and found or pilfered. A little closer to the action, per se.
But it's probably the "only" qualifier we will have to agree to disagree about.
These were the tools, whether issued or not, that were produced to maintain the equipment that won WWII, the most significant war of the century we were born in, the deadliest anthropogenic disaster in human history, the tools of the greatest generation. Of course, people whose parents fought in or lived through the Punic Wars or the Napoleonic Wars or the 100 Years war etc etc may disagree, but, collecting, as a hobby, wasn't really a "thing". While archeology shows that the Kalahari people collected crystals 100,000 years ago, it wasn't until the 19th century that collecting artifacts for aesthetic purposes (i.e., for display) arose.
Indeed. I don't know if we'll see that kind of leap in the next 100, and, as we continue to become more virtual, I don't know if hand tools will have the same resonance.
Dave455
Well-known member
Perhaps “only” was the wrong word! Although it has a place when considering value, as I can remember so much of this stuff being sold so cheaply.
I’m actually quite glad that some is being preserved in museums, as all too often it’s the big things such as the vehicles and aircraft that get preserved, while the tools get used till they’re worn out.
I was thinking primarily of domestic, and to an extent U.S. tools. There was, and still is, a vast quantity of “bringbacks” out there.
I’ve spoken to a lot of WW2 veterans over the years, and while they were instructed to respect private property, anything that had belonged to the German armed forces, or government, was “help yourself”!
There’s a lot of that around, even today. Unfortunately, metric tools were not that useful here till the 70’s, when European vehicles started becoming popular.
Last edited:
OP
Stubby1743
Well-known member
I can't believe that I didn't recognise it as such as I have a lot of them that I gathered up 20 or so years ago. I think that what threw me off was the lack of the name in full, the fact that it is BA and it's small size.
Incidentally, I always laugh at the name "Superslim" as these spanners are chunky.
ZRX61
Well-known member
Farman Experimental, there's one flying in NZ.
ZRX61
Well-known member
The larger BA threads are used for nutplates on Spitfires & Hurricanes etc. In the US it's normal practice to run a US size tap through them to *convert* them. Easily spotted at the screw heads are noticeably different.
ZRX61
Well-known member
I have a Spitfire mainwheel. I know it's the genuine part as I was the one who removed it from the rest of the aircraft.. which is now sitting in the museum at Wright Patt on a pair of spiffy new wheels
ZRX61
Well-known member
Been around since 1760.This set is probably a bit too young for inclusion in a vintage tools thread, but people may be interested.
The sizes go from 0-6BA. Strangely, the two largest spanners are 0BA/2BA and 0BA/1/8Whitworth.