B-Vent or Cat III for Beacon Morris BRT075N Install

[rgonyer]

So it seems that every time I think I understand what needs to happen for venting this thing, I get more confused :-/ I may still get a Pro to do the install, but even if I do I'll want to understand it so I can check the work. I pretty much don't trust anyone to do a proper job anymore.

I bought the unit at Menards, I would assume they would have the proper venting for it (big assuption, I know). They appear to have two options in stock. Ameri-Vent B-vent (self locking, double wall) and some brand of Cat III stainless single wall with built in seals.

The B-vent is reasonably priced, the Cat III single wall is REALLY expensive.

The manual alludes to the fact that you can use double wall B-Vent for a vertical install.

I bought a few pieces of double wall B-Vent to test fit tonight figuring I can always take it back. The "connector" piece they sell is very tough to push into the appliance. It goes in just a couple of inches, and the outer "wall" of the connector doesn't touch the appliance. Is this typical? There's a clamp collar on the outside of the inner connection but that doesn't seem to clamp all the way down on the vent that comes out of the appliance.

When assembling B-Vent, do you normally need sealant in between pieces?

Thanks for any assistance!

 

[dave67fd]

If the unit was manufactured before 2011 you could use the B vent horizontally. But unlikely in your case. If you want to do it correctly and by code the cat III is required if you run a horizontal system. Although expensive your only allowed a relatively short length.

The B vent and/or single wall maybe acceptable going vertical. Your manual will confirm.

The unit should have provided you with a vent connector/reducer of some fashion. Going vertical, you can use a short length and/or 90 deg elbow of single wall to fit inside the B-pipe which needs to be fastened with 3 ss screws. The annular area of the B pipe should then be sealed with high temp silicone sealer. Silastic, Permatex red or similar. You don't need sealer between b-pipe joints, they interlock.

You really should read your manual thoroughly several times and don't listen to me. Inquire with your town on what codes are required for a gas appliance install.

Consider your location as the heater ultimately wants to face (or nearly so) towards the coldest air entry..i.e garage door. Don't buy the vent system until you have researched the location you have choosen that meets all the codes.

Once you have choosen the proper location you can mount it, wire it etc.. and leave the gas and/or vent line for the pro's. (carefull in your choice of pro's, many of them maybe licensed but clueless).

 

[rgonyer]

If the unit was manufactured before 2011 you could use the B vent horizontally. But unlikely in your case. If you want to do it correctly and by code the cat III is required if you run a horizontal system. Although expensive your only allowed a relatively short length.

The B vent and/or single wall maybe acceptable going vertical. Your manual will confirm.

The unit should have provided you with a vent connector/reducer of some fashion. Going vertical, you can use a short length and/or 90 deg elbow of single wall to fit inside the B-pipe which needs to be fastened with 3 ss screws. The annular area of the B pipe should then be sealed with high temp silicone sealer. Silastic, Permatex red or similar. You don't need sealer between b-pipe joints, they interlock.

You really should read your manual thoroughly several times and don't listen to me. Inquire with your town on what codes are required for a gas appliance install.

Consider your location as the heater ultimately wants to face (or nearly so) towards the coldest air entry..i.e garage door. Don't buy the vent system until you have researched the location you have choosen that meets all the codes.

Once you have choosen the proper location you can mount it, wire it etc.. and leave the gas and/or vent line for the pro's. (carefull in your choice of pro's, many of them maybe licensed but clueless).

Thanks - that may be the missing piece. My heater did not come with any kind of adapter. It has a 4" exhaust sticking out the back, nothing more. It doesn't quite match up with the double wall B-vent adapter I picked up at Menards. I must need a single wall to double wall adapter, that makes sense.

As for DIY - in our county we are allowed to do our own work. I've consulted the county inspectors office and we're allowed to use double wall b-vent vertically. As for the gas, I may or may not hire it done. I have used black pipe before, and I'm also an experienced mechanic. If I do it, it'll be done properly. It may take me a lot of extra time though. I've read the manual over several times. It makes sense, it's just when I go to pick up the parts I need things don't seem to match up. I'm hoping this is where the single to double adapter you mentioned will fit in.

I already have it hung, it's in the back corner of my garage pointing directly at the garage door opening.

Thanks for your help!

 

[RABRods]

I ended up using the Cat III even for the vertical. After speaking with Beacon Morris tech they stated Cat III must be used for all horizontal, and for vertical only if using "separated combustion". I did it that way, bought some peices from menards, but most online. It was expensive by I really like the quality and integrated seals on the exhaust side. Their manual and even their tech is lacking a bit since the change to Cat III requirment, even some of the parts are still sized for b vent not Cat III.

 

[rgonyer]

I ended up using the Cat III even for the vertical. After speaking with Beacon Morris tech they stated Cat III must be used for all horizontal, and for vertical only if using "separated combustion". I did it that way, bought some peices from menards, but most online. It was expensive by I really like the quality and integrated seals on the exhaust side. Their manual and even their tech is lacking a bit since the change to Cat III requirment, even some of the parts are still sized for b vent not Cat III.

Why the upsize after the heater? I really don't want to spend more on venting than I did on the heater

 

[cdsvt]

I got my category III from pexsupply online for a lower price than I could get from a local place (even with good contractor discounts). The local place had to order it in from their distributor, so it got to me faster ordering online myself. The ones I got (z-vent z-flex) is godawful expensive, but nice stuff - single wall stainless, welded seam, integral silicone gasket.

One benefit of the z-vent single wall is that it can be cut to length (I used aviation snips) so you can adjust the length to make it fit perfectly.

The official Mr Heater 4" horizontal kits would have cost me nearly as much as I paid for the unit heater itself... That is one huge downside to these unit heaters that wasn't the case a couple of years ago.

For mine (not a beacon morris, but a mr heater) I ordered a 3" to 4" increaser (3" x 4" Z-Vent Increaser SKU: 2SVSI0304) and it worked great. Very snug fit on the 3" side though...

 

[RABRods]

I didnt neccessarily upsize its the intake you are seeing on the outside of the flue. The "concentric kit" not longer fits correctly with the Cat III pipe, plus I felt this is a much better, and trusted solution than there kit. The pics here are from when I was mocking up on the ground, you can see the intake/flue setup. I went with HeatFab SC (Selkirk) brand pipe. Purchased most from SDS Supply online, and some at Menards.

 

[rgonyer]

I didnt neccessarily upsize its the intake you are seeing on the outside of the flue. The "concentric kit" not longer fits correctly with the Cat III pipe, plus I felt this is a much better, and trusted solution than there kit. The pics here are from when I was mocking up on the ground, you can see the intake/flue setup. I went with HeatFab SC (Selkirk) brand pipe. Purchased most from SDS Supply online, and some at Menards.

Oh ok - I missed the part where you said you used the separate combustion option.

 

[Mike007]

If the unit was manufactured before 2011 you could use the B vent horizontally.

Can you fill me in on what you are referring to here? Thanks.

 

[crazy wheel]

Can you fill me in on what you are referring to here? Thanks.

This is from Modine.
It says it covers all unit heaters sold in the US and Canada
www.modine.com/download/mgf5lv0tjsl200vpc4s83jrh14/76-801.pdf

 

[dave67fd]

Can you fill me in on what you are referring to here? Thanks.

Due to changes to Z83-8 2009 CSA2.6-2009, the use of single
wall B-Vent is no longer permitted as an acceptable material
when venting horizontally, this change covers both residential
and commercial installations. All horizontally vented units
manufactured after July of 2011 must be vented as a Caterory
III Unit/Utility Heater in compliance with UL 1738 & ULS636.

Edit- Crazy beat me to the punch.

 

[toyotadriver]

Due to changes to Z83-8 2009 CSA2.6-2009, the use of single
wall B-Vent is no longer permitted as an acceptable material
when venting horizontally, this change covers both residential
and commercial installations. All horizontally vented units
manufactured after July of 2011 must be vented as a Caterory
III Unit/Utility Heater in compliance with UL 1738 & ULS636.

Edit- Crazy beat me to the punch.

I don't understand the part about "use of single wall B-Vent". What about double wall B vent?

 

[crazy wheel]

I don't understand the part about "use of single wall B-Vent". What about double wall B vent?

B vent is double wall.
Not sure why it is worded that way.

edit; maybe it should read "single wall and B-vent"

 

[dave67fd]

I don't understand the part about "use of single wall B-Vent". What about double wall B vent?

Taken from heater manual, probably bad wording/explanation on their parts or as crazy pointed out.
Or should read like: single wall "or" B-vent.

 

[ecclap]

I didnt neccessarily upsize its the intake you are seeing on the outside of the flue. The "concentric kit" not longer fits correctly with the Cat III pipe, plus I felt this is a much better, and trusted solution than there kit. The pics here are from when I was mocking up on the ground, you can see the intake/flue setup. I went with HeatFab SC (Selkirk) brand pipe. Purchased most from SDS Supply online, and some at Menards.

First post as I have a Beacon Morris BRT45 that I purchased from Menards a couple weeks ago. I want to set it up for separated combustion and am exploring options. Would you care to share any more info about your install and your conversation with the tech? My manual states that you have to buy their concentric vent kit to do it right. What did the tech say about using a different concentric system? Any info would be greatly appreciated!

 

[rgonyer]

So - I've finally figured out why I can't find the (&*(*^ correct pieces to do the job. Menards is out of the Amerivent 4EDC Draft Hood Connector which I think may be the piece that mates the B-vent up to my heater. Both local menards are out of stock even though they say in stock on line *surprise*. I can order it online, but I'm wondering which makes more sense -

The 4fcac http://www.ameri-vent.com/products/fc-ac/single-wall-appliance-connector

Or the 4EDC which Menards SHOULD have but is out of:
http://www.ameri-vent.com/products/edc-rdc/draft-hood-connector

 

[Mike007]

This is from Modine.
It says it covers all unit heaters sold in the US and Canada
www.modine.com/download/mgf5lv0tjsl200vpc4s83jrh14/76-801.pdf

Ok, it's from the instruction manual. I never understood how they could spec B-vent for horizontal venting. B-vent is category I which requires it be under a negative pressure. It certainly is not when horizontal. Somehow they list the install as category I when horizontal. Since a horizontal termination isn't made for B-vent, you see these ridiculous looking chimneys sticking out of people homes horizontal. It never made sense to me.

 

[crazy wheel]

Ok, it's from the instruction manual. I never understood how they could spec B-vent for horizontal venting. B-vent is category I which requires it be under a negative pressure. It certainly is not when horizontal. Somehow they list the install as category I when horizontal. Since a horizontal termination isn't made for B-vent, you see these ridiculous looking chimneys sticking out of people homes horizontal. It never made sense to me.

Vertical is spec'd as Cat I, B-vent is okay for vertical.

Horizontal is spec'd as Cat III, B-bent is not okay

Old way (before 2011) B-vent was allowed in horizontal venting. I was taught that in this application a Tjernlund draft motor had to be added to the vent system

 

[CNGsaves]

^ ^ ^ Crazy . . . you'll get a kick out of "pro" HVAC install of horizontal flue with single-wall pipe !! . . . scary Looks like homeowner finally convinced the vendor to do it right.

See that thread at:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3550889#post3550889

 

[brewchief]

So - I've finally figured out why I can't find the (&*(*^ correct pieces to do the job. Menards is out of the Amerivent 4EDC Draft Hood Connector which I think may be the piece that mates the B-vent up to my heater. Both local menards are out of stock even though they say in stock on line *surprise*. I can order it online, but I'm wondering which makes more sense -

The 4fcac http://www.ameri-vent.com/products/fc-ac/single-wall-appliance-connector

Or the 4EDC which Menards SHOULD have but is out of:
http://www.ameri-vent.com/products/edc-rdc/draft-hood-connector

The 4fcac should work fine, those pieces will typically only go on the outlet adapter on the vent motor a inch or two, a couple sheetmetal screws will secure it.

 

[crazy wheel]

^ ^ ^ Crazy . . . you'll get a kick out of "pro" HVAC install of horizontal flue with single-wall pipe !! . . . scary Looks like homeowner finally convinced the vendor to do it right.

See that thread at:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3550889#post3550889

Yeah, I was watching that thread as well.

 

[rgonyer]

Yeah, I was watching that thread as well.

And these types of things are EXACTLY why I want to do it myself. If I have to become an expert by studying for a week in order to check the "expert" that I am paying my hard earned money to, I may as well install it myself. If I had someone that I absolutely trusted to do the job right without me having to learn it all myself to check them, I would have no problem paying the cash for a pro. Unfortunately in 15 years I have yet to find that person in any trade.

 

[RABRods]

First post as I have a Beacon Morris BRT45 that I purchased from Menards a couple weeks ago. I want to set it up for separated combustion and am exploring options. Would you care to share any more info about your install and your conversation with the tech? My manual states that you have to buy their concentric vent kit to do it right. What did the tech say about using a different concentric system? Any info would be greatly appreciated!

PM Sent....

 

[Mike007]

Vertical is spec'd as Cat I, B-vent is okay for vertical.

Horizontal is spec'd as Cat III, B-bent is not okay

Old way (before 2011) B-vent was allowed in horizontal venting. I was taught that in this application a Tjernlund draft motor had to be added to the vent system

There is/was a sticker on the back of Hot Dawg heaters that read "Catagory I when vented less then 5' horizontally". No external draft inducer was required. Seemed a little sketchy to me. It would fly in some jurisdictions I work and other it would not.

 

[toyotadriver]

Taken from heater manual, probably bad wording/explanation on their parts or as crazy pointed out.
Or should read like: single wall "or" B-vent.

Gotcha. Makes sense.

 

[vondeltoid]

I also recently bought a Beacon-Morris BRT075N from Menards and am in the process of installing. I'm going to vent horizontally, so I'm buying the expensive HeatFab stainless steel vent pipe (4").

As for vent length, I only need the minimum horizontal length of 5 ft. In the instructions it says to install a condensate drain somewhere inside the building, but I don't see the point if I'm pitching the output of the vent downward.

Has anyone else had experience with either installing or ignoring the condensate drain?

 

[jd4020]

Vondeltoid, I am in the process of installing a BRT075N also. I'm not an HVAC guy, but from what I've read, the reason that they recommend a drain is normally, the vent pipe is installed with a slight rise and then drained indoors. Reason being, the condensation can be slightly acid, and it may not be best to drain it outdoors, where it may drip on someone' head, or on other property. I plan to install my vent pipe with fall, and let it drip outside, as there is no other property within a mile of me.

 

[ecclap]

I installed the brt45 in my shop this past fall. I bought the Heatfab 4" drain tee from Menards and used it, but my install is vertical through the roof. All of my piping is pitched up and the drain tee works very well. In your situation (horizontal vent) I can't really see how the drain tee would work very well. If you look straight into the drain portion of the fitting you will see that there is a baffle inside of the pipe that keeps the flue gases directed past it and still allows any moisture that gets past it to drain back down the fitting. If you have a downward pitch horizontally I don't think there would be a way for the moisture to drain back to the fitting defeating the purpose. I wouldn't install a drain tee in your situation.

 

[thammel]

I'll join in. I'm in the process of installing my Reznor UDAS, separated combustion. They specify cat III stainless steel. Z-vent supplies that. Reznor wants you to slope it toward the exterior so condensate rolls away from the heater. Makes sense to me. Since I'm taking this through my framed (2x6) wall, I'm planning on installing a thimble to keep all combustible temps low. THis is not required but it's another thing that makes sense.

Tom

 

[CKS1955]

Installed a Beacon Morris (Mestek, Inc.) heater with a horizontal vent installed with a 1/4" fall per foot of vent (Class III 4" stainless steel).

Jay

 

[thammel]

Question for you guys: Have any of you used wall thimbles with your horizontal venting? It seems like a good safe thing to do. I have vinyl siding and am wondering how to mount the exterior flange. Do I mount it under the siding? This would look the best.

THanks,
Tom

 

[CKS1955]

Tom,
I bought the combustion chamber which used a 7" vent pipe through which the Class III 4"stainless steel vent went through the middle of it. I could not locate a 7" wall thimble from any of the local HVAC warehouses, so I made my own.

Jay

 

[thammel]

I see that z-vent makes a 5" ID thimble. Reznor says to cut a 4.5" hole in your wall - I think the 5 " thimble should work well. My question is how to deal with the outside flange. I guess putting it under the siding is the way to go. I plan on using a siding mounting block on the outside so it should be ok that the thimble is a little large. I like the idea of keeping high temp away from the combustible wall components. The stainless z-vent pipes and adapters look great but this is not going to be cheap!

Tom

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Can you fill me in on what you are referring to here? Thanks.

Me too.