backer rod problem

[philip_g]

I'm filling my relief cuts with the legacy industrial gel filler, and about a gallone in with 3 more gallons on the way I ordered some backer rod to try and save on the materials.
I shoved it down in the bottom best I could but I either didn't get it in good or it popped out because now as the gel is setting up 24 hours later I can see the rod just under the surface.

the only thing I can think to do is grind the floor, anywhere it's thin use an angle grinder to grind out the rod cavity and re-fill it with the gel filler.

Sounds like a plan? Wish I'd left these stupid joints alone, hasn't been worth the headache or expense.

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Phil:

Good plan and you will be happy with the results in the end.

 

[philip_g]

Finally got to grinding this floor, using a single head husqvarna and this stuff kind of ***** to grind. WORST idea I've ever had, wish I'd just left the cuts exposed. It's not going to look worth a darn. It settled in the cuts leaving a little bit of a valley and it's almost like it clogs the diamond cutters, I can do a little seal then have to do some concrete then back.

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Phil:

Not sure where you went wrong as this works very well for joints/cracks. Send me a pic to check out if you can.

 

[dcs Inc]

Sounds as if too small of backer rod or uneven sides of the joint allowed the material to flow past. The floating rod tells me it was too small. Now that you got the "leak" filled another coat then grind again will make it smooth.

 

[philip_g]

I ground out the areas with the rod too close to the surface, it's the rest of it that's a problem now, it's like the material burnt under the grinder and the black stuff flakes off the surface. Hard to explain. I THINK it'll look ok once I refill the ground out area and with some prayers that the epoxy bonds well to the filler it won't look as bad as I thought it might a few hours ago, I'll try to get pics but my camera is in a box somewhere still

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Phil:

No prayers needed. The filler is epoxy too, just make sure it has no gloss to it and give it a solvent wipe to remove any dust.

 

[philip_g]

I just don't know what to do with this stuff, I was pretty careful when I mixed it using big plastic mixing spoons to get an even mix and working it out until well blended, still yet there are sections that didn't cure, even 3 weeks later, that's what caused the burning.

Because it settled below the concrete grade in most spots it's bumpy and has trapped mud from the post grind rinse that I can't get out, this is going to look absolutely awful and I don't know what I can do besides hire a professional to grind this stuff out and use sikka flex or something that will work better. If I roll epoxy over this there is no chance it's going to bond. I've got more money wasted on the gel filler than I do on the epoxy, maybe I should just leave it alone and hope it breaks up and falls out on it's own.

Guess I'll roll out the epoxy and when it starts to look bad in a few months I'll put tile over it.

 

[dcs Inc]

OK, I'll jump in here and answer a couple of your questions. Number 1 you should have been on the phone with questions to your supplier before and during the process. Improper mixing is normally caused by not scraping the sidewalls and the bottom of the mixing bucket. Also, never pour it out to the last drop. When the to stream starts to dribble....STOP.

As far as mud? coming up..... I never wet wash a slab I'm about to apply epoxy to, especially in a control joint or crack. You just can't get all the water out, (unless you give it a month of Sundays to dry).

Do not go over uncured epoxy with another coat. Use a solvent to clean it off or cross your fingers it will eventually dry. As far as the smearing of the crack fill stuff, most manufactures (there are only a small few) use a flexible binder in the epoxy to give it elasticity. this stuff heats up and smears when grinding because of the heat generated when doing so. It's a bear but it can be ground off. I prefer to use our epoxy with either glass bead, silica sand or silica fume to make a paste. Elite Crete Systems also has a epoxy crack fill but I like making my own.

They make wide 4" angle grinder blades. It might be the best idea to grind your joints open and fill with a flexible urethane filler (color of choice) if they are too hard or it will take too long to fix them.

Not sure if I've helped. Take a deep breath, find out what went wrong and how to correct it. go from there. good luck. gene

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Phil:

No judgement here, just the reaction to the facts as we have received them from you.

Gene is correct. Water and epoxy do not mix, you have water in the joint and this is an issue and will continue to be an issue with your coating if it is not dried out. Place high solids epoxy over water and you will see a bubble show every time.

Issue # 2. If the material is gooey here and there it was not mixed properly.

Lastly, this is a fumed silica product and therefore can be ground after cure. If it didn't grind well it was not fully cured which you confirmed.

Scrape everything out of the joint, wipe any goo with xylene and start over.

Placing Sika caulk over this will not fix anything and coating over this is going to cause more hurt.

You won't be the first guy to have an issue with a DIY coating project and certainly not the last. Pull yourself up by your boot straps, make the repairs and coat your floor. Don't cut corners now and throw away a potentially rewarding project.

Contact me and I will send you out some more product on the house.

 

[philip_g]

When the to stream starts to dribble....STOP.

I'm thinking you're ahead of me in the process, I haven't laid epoxy yet just the gel crack filler. You can't pour this stuff, mixed it's about the consistency of room temp honey, maybe slightly thinner. I mixed it in a metal paint tray using 4 big plastic kitchen spoons to measure by scoop, one to scoop, one to scrape. I mixed it using a 4" plastic putty knife, drawing it out, scraping and balling it back up, repeat.

As far as mud? coming up..... I never wet wash a slab I'm about to apply epoxy to, especially in a control joint or crack. You just can't get all the water out, (unless you give it a month of Sundays to dry).

No choice. The grinding process left a lot of dust I can't vacuum up. The "mud" is a concrete dust slurry. It's 90 degrees and 11% humidity today, the floor dries very quickly. I'm not pleased with the grind and will acid etch the concrete anyway, which is what I should have done from the start and left the relief cuts alone.

Do not go over uncured epoxy with another coat. Use a solvent to clean it off or cross your fingers it will eventually dry. As far as the smearing of the crack fill stuff, most manufactures (there are only a small few) use a flexible binder in the epoxy to give it elasticity. this stuff heats up and smears when grinding because of the heat generated when doing so. It's a bear but it can be ground off. I prefer to use our epoxy with either glass bead, silica sand or silica fume to make a paste. Elite Crete Systems also has a epoxy crack fill but I like making my own.

again still at the crack fill phase, not sure if you're referring to the gel epoxy filler or the floor epoxy

They make wide 4" angle grinder blades. It might be the best idea to grind your joints open and fill with a flexible urethane filler (color of choice) if they are too hard or it will take too long to fix them.

I think it's about my only choice

 

[philip_g]

Phil:

No judgement here, just the reaction to the facts as we have received them from you.

Gene is correct. Water and epoxy do not mix, you have water in the joint and this is an issue and will continue to be an issue with your coating if it is not dried out. Place high solids epoxy over water and you will see a bubble show every time.

the water is irrelevant as it is over the top of the crack filler. I'm nowhere near laying epoxy over this mess, it'll be dry if I roll anything out on it.

Issue # 2. If the material is gooey here and there it was not mixed properly.

Lastly, this is a fumed silica product and therefore can be ground after cure. If it didn't grind well it was not fully cured which you confirmed.

I do not know what I could have done differently. Proportions were accurate and well mixed, aside from the cool temps (50's) everything else was fairly normal. It was rolled spread out 2 or 3 weeks ago, I can't remember.

Scrape everything out of the joint, wipe any goo with xylene and start over.

Placing Sika caulk over this will not fix anything and coating over this is going to cause more hurt.

it's not scrapable, it's just the very top that's gooey and it's firm underneath, it'll have to be ground out and I do not have the time nor patience, I need to move my **** out of my old house garage next monday/tuesday before closing and don't have time to grind this stuff out, order more, fill, wait 24 hours, spend another $200 on a grinder rental, grind, wash and then epoxy. I closed on this house the 4th and we're going on 3 weeks of trying to get these cracks to look right. About my only option right now is tile it and just throw away $1000 in materials or just leave it as is and hope this stuff breaks out and try again in a year or two.

Contact me and I will send you out some more product on the house.

thanks for the offer but what I need is a time machine

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Phil:

Sorry to hear. Time get's us all in the end.
Keep us posted.

 

[philip_g]

Phil:

Sorry to hear. Time get's us all in the end.
Keep us posted.

I can't wait to hear from the HOA asking why my garage frige is on the front porch and to please remove it.

 

[JakeKohl]

Hope this helps your humor a little....

 

[philip_g]

here are some pics, sorry it's from my phone as I mentioned camera is off in a box somewheres...

I ground the heck out of those flat, flaky spots but they must be in a low spot in the concrete, I wouldn't mind but they flake right off with my fingernail after having been heated I guess.

My little 4" cup on an angle grinder doesn't do too well on this stuff, it gouges the concrete and leaves the epoxy behind.

 

[philip_g]

I had a little bit left in the bottom of a can, maybe 1/4 gal so I ground out channels in that mucky stuff and coated over it with a mix of resin and maybe a little extra hardender, last ditch effort. The ONLY spots that didn't cure? Places I had that backer rod. I should have ripped that **** out. I'm SO tired of having this sticky goop on my arms and hands even with gloves on it gets everywhere.

 

[dcs Inc]

It *****, even sometimes when you do it all the time. When you finish a project and take a long stare..... it is worth it. I look at this as an art and cringe at some of the "short cuts" that the ..... oh how do I say it, cheap asses, ( is that too strong?) do and go for the crappiest product line fueled only by cost.

Well, I've probably offended half of you guys here but I'm not here to make buddies. In fact I don't know why I'm here. I see a lack of knowledge, even from a lot of the vender's attempting to sell you "just sweep it and apply at 400 sq. ft. a gallon ****.

The problem is you guys eat that chit up. Cheap..... I'd do it a couple of times but I'd sound like a bird. Ah, feel better now, later.

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Gene, take a vacation, you deserve it.

 

[dcs Inc]

Should take your adivise.... Hadn't had one in 8 years. If you think dealing with homeowners is a pain, try a few builders. Working a 5 day project into 2 days, dealing with all the other trades, incorrect power supplies, spray painting a ceiling while your trying to polish a floor, getting calls from 3 different crews at all hours of the night.....

Makes ya wonder.....

 

[philip_g]

Alright.... now I'm pissed.
I scraped those areas out, ground them down to a vee channel and reapplied, even more attention paid to the mix and the areas I re-did did almost 48 hours later are still tacky and soft. This is ridiculous. Now I've got glops of sticky, gooey BS on my floor I have to grind up while flinging said sticky BS all over the garage with the grinder. AGAIN. The rest of the floor hardened up just fine, out of 4 gallons of this **** 1 gallon refuses to harden so I'm sure someone will be back to tell me I'm not mixing it correctly again... Screw it I'm going to apply over the top of it and let it fail, I just don't give a **** anymore.

If I had used sikkaflex like EVERYONE ELSE I'd have zero problems eight now, try to use something better and this is what I get.

 

[philip_g]

The problem is you guys eat that chit up. Cheap..... I'd do it a couple of times but I'd sound like a bird. Ah, feel better now, later.

and yet you see pretty few of them coming back and complaining. My last house had $200 rustoleum special applied over clean concrete acid etched, lived in that house 5 years and it's been a rental for 3, a little dawn and a quick scrub and it looks like new. I dragged engines, transmissions, spilled every fluid known to man on that floor, parked hot sticky R compound tires on it, you name it. What's my $1000+ in materials gotten me besides a basically ruined garage floor, and a wasted thousand bucks?

 

[dcs Inc]

Most diy'ers are happy with less than stellar results and aren't too motivated in showing off poor quality or incorrect applications. I'm confused as to why you didn't go back with your cheap stuff on this project. As much as you would like to argue the facts as to what caused your problems, it comes down to application error. Be it from incorrect information given or the lack of information obtained, it comes down to the applicator.

This is a prime example why Elite Crete Systems requires installers to attend class and become certified in applying their materials. It's not rocket science but one little omission or shortcut in the procedures can cost time and money. Your project is fixable without having to spend a lot of money. gene

 

[philip_g]

I'm confused as to why you didn't go back with your cheap stuff on this project.

Because everyone here craps on the rustoleum like it doesn't work, when it did just fine for me, and I'm harder on flooring than most here.

 

[dcs Inc]

Philip I can only go by what I've ground off and I've ground off a lot of failed rusto. They should keep in the paint business but of course their epoxy isn't much more than that. The problem is with just about any concrete coating product is the prep. A rough surface will hold about anything... paint excluded. it just gives a topical skin coverage and doesn't penetrate the surface. ANY moisture coming up through the concrete will blow it off. Be it really known, it scratches easily and peals up quickly... unless of course you have a really course surface and that will delay it. Now I just don't pick on rusto, there are a lot of products out there that are on the lower end of performance.