Backfeeding electrical

[Lucid Moments]

So I am in the process of building a house and shop. The shop is basically finished but there is still lots to do in the house. My electrician has said that there is no reason to not hook the shop electrical up but the builder does not want to run the line yet as there is still some grading to do where the line will be buried. So it is likely to be a couple of weeks until I get power in the shop.

Two additional points. The shop and the house are on separate electrical panels, and the building inspector said he doesn't have a problem with me moving some stuff into the shop as long as he can get around it when time to do the final comes.

So onto my question. Is it safe for me to back feed electricity to the shop from a generator through the 220V welder plug I had put in?

I'm sure this is pretty standard but here is the welder plug for reference.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So your garage panel is not hooked up to any service?

Does the garage panel have a bonded neutral and ground?

 

[sberry]

Not thru welder recept.

 

[PCustoms]

No, you'd have to use a suicide cord.

Spend $30 and get a generator inlet, or just wire it direct to the main lugs in the panel.

 

[Lucid Moments]

So your garage panel is not hooked up to any service?

Does the garage panel have a bonded neutral and ground?

Correct that the garage panel is not hooked to any service yet.

I honestly don't know about the bonded neutral and ground. I know very little about electrical.

I would have asked my electrician about this but he is on vacation.

 

[Lucid Moments]

No, you'd have to use a suicide cord.

Spend $30 and get a generator inlet, or just wire it direct to the main lugs in the panel.

I would, but I know so little about electrical work that I generally don't touch it if it is much more complicated than plugging in a cord and flipping a switch. DC stuff on cars makes a little sense to me but I have never taken the opportunity to learn AC stuff.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Correct that the garage panel is not hooked to any service yet.

I honestly don't know about the bonded neutral and ground. I know very little about electrical.

I would have asked my electrician about this but he is on vacation.

ok well need to check the neutral to ground bonding. should only be bonded in one place.

Since you will have a subpanel, i shouldnt be bonded there so would need to make sure the generator is bonded.

next issue is the suicide cord as people have pointed out.

In answer to your question, no you cannot use the welder receptacle.

get a generator inlet...

 

[Norcal]

That is a 240V receptacle no neutral is present, and backfeeding a receptacle requires a "'suicide cord" which is always a bad idea. If the power is not connected it would be better to connect at the panel, if power is connected then it should only be connected through a proper transfer switch, IT IS NOT OPTIONAL.

 

[Lucid Moments]

Sounds like I am better off just waiting. I mainly wanted to be able to turn the lights on.
I'll just use the works lights I have plugged straight into the generator.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[Bert_]

Why not just wire a cord into the panel rather than piddling around with the welder plug.

Get a cord with the end that matches the generator, strip it out and connect to panel. Remove it when you get permanent power.

No need for a transfer switch because there is no other source of power.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Why not just wire a cord into the panel rather than piddling around with the welder plug.

Get a cord with the end that matches the generator, strip it out and connect to panel. Remove it when you get permanent power.

No need for a transfer switch because there is no other source of power.

that was gonna be my next suggestion. just use cordage. its temporary

 

[sberry]

How far is it, run a cord.

 

[Jim greengo]

Why not just wire a cord into the panel rather than piddling around with the welder plug.

Get a cord with the end that matches the generator, strip it out and connect to panel. Remove it when you get permanent power.

No need for a transfer switch because there is no other source of power.

 

[Lucid Moments]

I can put the generator pretty much where ever I want. Shop has openings for 4 12' X 12' garage doors but no doors yet so plenty of ventilation.

I have never taken the front cover off a panel. Is it very obvious where to run wire too?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Since you dont know your way around a panel, i suggest having your sparky wire it up.

 

[Lucid Moments]

Since you dont know your way around a panel, i suggest having your sparky wire it up.

The electrician that wired the shop is on vacation this week, but I just remembered a friend of mine that owes me a favor. I don't think he ever got his own license but did several years of apprentice work. May have gotten journeyman I don't know for sure.

And I can learn a little while I am at it.

 

[SGKent]

Consider not being in such a rush. That is how people get hurt. People do stupid things like launch the generator near the door and the CO gets them. Someone trips on an electrical wire etc. Just take a break and think thru what you really want. If you need light open the doors. Do not let the building inspector see you starting to inhabit the structure before they give the final. Last -- this is not a flame - it is a concern for your and other's safety. Since you don't know what your electrician did, is it prudent for anyone to make assumptions about the status of the wiring without inspecting all the work? If you absolutely must have power in the shop, set the generator out somewhere it can vent, and run a cord to some stand up lights like what you can get at HF. I keep several chicken coop type aluminum reflector lights around all the time that have clamps on them. That is how they come. Screw in some LEDs and you can clamp and aim them anywhere you want. You are coming across like you are moving in and the NEW house and garage have not been signed off. Around here they'll create work for you if you do that.

 

[Lucid Moments]

Consider not being in such a rush. That is how people get hurt. People do stupid things like launch the generator near the door and the CO gets them. Someone trips on an electrical wire etc. Just take a break and think thru what you really want. If you need light open the doors. Do not let the building inspector see you starting to inhabit the structure before they give the final. Last -- this is not a flame - it is a concern for your and other's safety. Since you don't know what your electrician did, is it prudent for anyone to make assumptions about the status of the wiring without inspecting all the work? If you absolutely must have power in the shop, set the generator out somewhere it can vent, and run a cord to some stand up lights like what you can get at HF. I keep several chicken coop type aluminum reflector lights around all the time that have clamps on them. That is how they come. Screw in some LEDs and you can clamp and aim them anywhere you want. You are coming across like you are moving in and the NEW house and garage have not been signed off. Around here they'll create work for you if you do that.

Did you read my original post? Or my subsequent posts in this thread?

I have already checked with the inspector and he is fine with me moving stuff into the shop. And I KNOW that the electrical is not hooked up to the grid because that is the reason why the power isn't in the shop in the first place. Also the shop doesn't have any doors yet so there are 4 open garage doors that provide plenty of ventilation. That is why I can put the generator right beside the panel where nobody will trip over the cords.

BTW I get that you are trying to be helpful. I really do, and I appreciate that. But while I readily admit to being massively ignorant with regards to electrical work I like to think that I am not totally ignorant regarding general issues, and that when I take risks they are calculated.

I am aware of most of the issues you mentioned and already covered some of them in this thread.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

NEVER run a generator indoors regardless of how much fresh air or open doors there is. Put it outside.

Cant believe i have to say this.

 

[Lucid Moments]

NEVER run a generator indoors regardless of how much fresh air or open doors there is. Put it outside.

Cant believe i have to say this.

I am just curious why? Or why not in this case. I truly do not understand the safety concerns when there is sufficient ventilation.

 

[Stuart in MN]

I am just curious why? Or why not in this case. I truly do not understand the safety concerns when there is sufficient ventilation.

Because you can't guarantee there will be sufficient ventilation in a garage, even with the door open.

 

[mm08822]

More than one person has thought they had adequate ventilation, only to wake up dead the next day.

Get 10-20' more cord and be safe.

 

[Lucid Moments]

Because you can't guarantee there will be sufficient ventilation in a garage, even with the door open.

With 4 12'X12' garage doors open? Plus 2 double windows? I think I can guarantee there will be enough ventilation with all that open.

Now there will be times when I don't have all that open of course, and during those times I will certainly move the generator out doors. But the forecast for tomorrow calls for a high temperature of 92 so I will take all the ventilation I can get.

 

[Lucid Moments]

More than one person has thought they had adequate ventilation, only to wake up dead the next day.

Get 10-20' more cord and be safe.

This is a detached shop, and the house it is detached from isn't even finished yet.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I am just curious why? Or why not in this case. I truly do not understand the safety concerns when there is sufficient ventilation.

if the small amount of exhaust fumes from a car can kill someone, surely the fumes from a generator running at a constant 3600rpms or 1800rpms will.

seriously run it outside.

dont be stupid...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

This is a detached shop, and the house it is detached from isn't even finished yet.

were not talking about the house.

were talking about people working in the garage.

why is running the generator outside such an issue?

 

[Sevenhills1952]

Before retiring I rented front section of a large building, garage around back.
Sometimes they would run a car with all doors open.
One morning my healthy 8yo shop cat was dead at the door, trying to get air. Vet said CO death.
Then the stupids ran a fuel oil portable heater at night. My second shop cat dead.
And motor, even small ones, should be run outdoors.
Years ago we took a small engine repair class. Instructor said a 5hp lawnmower running in that big garage could kill a person in just an hour or two.
I know this sounds crazy...but better safe than sorry.

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk

 

[Norcal]

I have a Miller Bobcat 225 NT, has a 18 HP Onan powering it, it sits under a portable carport that is open on one end, and I hold my breath when it is time to shut it down even if the side is open, I'll be the first to admit that being in the open is the safest way to operate gasoline powered equipment, even with the example above of how not to do it.

 

[Bigblockyeti]

Why not just wire a cord into the panel rather than piddling around with the welder plug.

Get a cord with the end that matches the generator, strip it out and connect to panel. Remove it when you get permanent power.

No need for a transfer switch because there is no other source of power.

This, and if you must run it indoors, at least have a fan running to guarantee air circulation.

 

[66cj225]

What feature of the garage wiring is needed? Just run in an extension cord from the generator to the tablesaw or whatever and call it a day. Doesn't involve inspectors, code or anything else other than common sense.

 

[Lucid Moments]

What feature of the garage wiring is needed? Just run in an extension cord from the generator to the tablesaw or whatever and call it a day. Doesn't involve inspectors, code or anything else other than common sense.

Overhead lights and lifts.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I am just curious why? Or why not in this case. I truly do not understand the safety concerns when there is sufficient ventilation.

Take it from a fireman that goes on several CO calls a year, don't run a generator inside. Please.

 

[TractorJeff]

FWIW an older 5hp B&S engine puts out 100 times the pollution of a car exhaust (if I remember correctly?)

 

[wanderer]

If you have to ask how to do it....you shouldn’t.

 

[1MtnGoat]

Fresh air/ventilation or not CO builds up in your system. While the doors open will provide fresh air and dilute the CO. Over relatively short time CO will continue to build in your system and slowly **** the life out of you or other occupants. CO does not leave your system as fast as it enters. I know this from personal experience as I almost died from "a well ventilated" engine running in a ventilated area 40 years ago. I did not know I had a problem until I sat down to take a break. Everything turned grey (monotone color) and I was too weak to stand up or call for help. Fortunately for me a fellow worker came by and called for help. Take these folks advice and don't do it or go for it but write your will first. Your call.

 

[joel63]

More than one person has thought they had adequate ventilation, only to wake up dead the next day.

Get 10-20' more cord and be safe.

I really don't think they will wake up dead the next day, but you make the

point well. Can't guarantee "adequate ventilation."