Backstabbed outlets

[Kevin54]

Ran into an electrical problem in the garage yesterday. I was checking out a furnace blower motor and squirrel cage. I just peeled the wires and stuck them into the end of an extension cord to see if the motor was good. I got an arc but never popped a breaker. I then noticed the clock plugged into that same circuit was out. With checking with a plug in electrical checker it showed an open neutral, so I started checking other outlets on the same circuit all on one wall. I started changing out outlets one at a time I kind of remember wiring the garage and did have some help so I wasn't sure where everything was exactly at. I replaced five outlets that showed an open neutral. On the sixth which I did not see right off was back behind my toolbox, I pulled it, everything looked good EXCEPT this one particular outlet was backstabbed for some reason. I swapped it out and everything was back in working order.

Now that brings up a question. I pulled the cover off of the panel box when I was part way through changing outlets. I noticed that the neutral for that particular bank of outlets had two neutrals in on spot, so I moved it to a blank spot. In doing so (no I didn't kill the breaker), the neutral his the box side. The neutral was hot. I checked with my electrical meter and I was getting something like 117 volts through the neutral So my question is, why did it not pop the breaker if it was shorted in an outlet? Mind you the outlet looked to be still in great shape, nothing charred, just that it was a backstabbed outlet.

I am also very thankful that the garage did not burn down. I guess with nothing plugged into the outlets AFTER the bad outlet is what save it. So I now have the task of going around and seeing if I have any other outlets that have been backstabbed. I guess when you have help doing something, never take for granted that just because they say they know what they are doing, that they actually do. I know that you are allowed to backstab but I don't like to do it jusdt for the fact that I have seen wires pull back out.

 

[walrus]

You pulled the neutral out, it hit the the breaker box and arced, is that right? Sounds to me like you had a load on that circuit, when it hit the box it completed the circuit, just like having it hooked to the neutral bar.

 

[sberry]

Yes, wasn't shorted, just some load on it, just because they were stabbed doesn't mean they were not working, lots of them work fine for lots of years especially where loads are low. Where they are daisy chained and heavily loaded where it usually leads to problems.

 

[Kevin54]

You pulled the neutral out, it hit the the breaker box and arced, is that right? Sounds to me like you had a load on that circuit, when it hit the box it completed the circuit, just like having it hooked to the neutral bar.

I guess what I don't understand is how could the neutral have a 117 volt load on it? When I disconnected it then check the neutral bar, the bar did not show any voltage or a very low voltage. Something like 2.3 volts. Only this one wire carried the higher voltage

Yes, wasn't shorted, just some load on it, just because they were stabbed doesn't mean they were not working, lots of them work fine for lots of years especially where loads are low. Where they are daisy chained and heavily loaded where it usually leads to problems.

Once I changed out the outlet, I went back to the box, checked the neutral wire, and show 0-maybe 2 volts. Could be how I was holding the probes showing the variance.

So even though the plug in tester showed an open neutral, I am thinking the outlet shorted inside itself, backfeeding the hot to the neutral, then when the neutral hit the box grounding itself out, it arced out at full voltage. What I don't understand is why the breaker would not pop if I had a dead short. Or am I still missing something?

 

[Gooch]

I guess what I don't understand is how could the neutral have a 117 volt load on it? When I disconnected it then check the neutral bar, the bar did not show any voltage or a very low voltage. Something like 2.3 volts. Only this one wire carried the higher voltage



Once I changed out the outlet, I went back to the box, checked the neutral wire, and show 0-maybe 2 volts. Could be how I was holding the probes showing the variance.

So even though the plug in tester showed an open neutral, I am thinking the outlet shorted inside itself, backfeeding the hot to the neutral, then when the neutral hit the box grounding itself out, it arced out at full voltage. What I don't understand is why the breaker would not pop if I had a dead short. Or am I still missing something?

what brand of panel?

 

[OccupantRJ]

If you had a device on your circuit that was plugged in, with the switch on, that would allow power to flow through the device, through the neutral, and back to the neutral bus in the panel. When you remove this active neutral, you then in effect have a hot wire in your hand, because the power flowing through the circuit is still looking for the neutral bus. I hate quickwire receptacles with a passion, and won't use them for any purpose, due to having encountered so many situations of bad connections in the past. The back wired, plate clamping terminal type is all I will use now for convenience outlets.

 

[Kevin54]

what brand of panel?

I'll have to look when I go out to the garage. I got it at Lowes and am thinking it is a Murray?

 

[spongerich]

Electrical connections drive me crazy. The backstabbed ones are a great idea, mostly poorly implemented. I've seen a few that have a setscrew which makes so much more sense. Using the terminals on most receptacles is a PITA since they always seem to give you just a little less clearance than you need to easily get the wire behind the screw.

The wire clamps that install on junction boxes with those damn little "tabbed" lock nuts just ****. I suppose they're designed to be easily installed by an electrician who's only carrying a screwdriver and an electrician's hammer (linesman pliers).

I'm just really surprised that most of that stuff hasn't been replaced by more efficient modular type stuff that's faster to install... I know that materials cost is a factor, but labor isn't cheap.

 

[larry_g]

I guess what I don't understand is how could the neutral have a 117 volt load on it? When I disconnected it then check the neutral bar, the bar did not show any voltage or a very low voltage. Something like 2.3 volts. Only this one wire carried the higher voltage

Imagine that the black (hot) wire going out a lightbulb, The white wire is connected to the other side of the light bulb and returns to the neutral/ground bar and the bulb lights. Now remove the neutral from the ground bar and you have a live neutral, and the bulb goes out. The power flows down the hot, through the bulb, and back to the box through the white looking for ground to complete the circuit. (Just like RJ says.) If the white is not connected then it is just the the other end of the black wire connected to it by the light bulb (load). There fore you will measure 117v between neutral and ground.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[timewarp]

You said your clock on the same breaker wasn't running , if it was still plugged in that is where the load that was putting voltage back on the neutral was. The clock was trying to run and it had power but was looking for the other side, you should never remove a neutral in the panel with out having the corresponding breaker turned off.

 

[ptschram]

you should never remove a neutral in the panel with out having the corresponding breaker turned off.

After having worked in EH&S for 19 years, 3-1/2 of that spent working for a power company, I'd prefer something along the lines of "it's not dead until it's dead and grounded".

Yeah, I know it's a hassle, but locked out circuits won't bite you. If you take the time to de-energize the circuit, your family won't have to take the time to bury you.

 

[walrus]

I guess what I don't understand is how could the neutral have a 117 volt load on it? When I disconnected it then check the neutral bar, the bar did not show any voltage or a very low voltage. Something like 2.3 volts. Only this one wire carried the higher voltage

It was back feeding thru the load, if you had a light on that circuit the filament of the bulb completes the circuit from the hot to the neutral. I'll bet your house voltage is greater than 117. Next time don't be a hero shut the breakers off, and check before messing around

 

[Aceman]

You should never unhook a neutral on a live circuit. That's a good way to ruin equipment...

 

[JimDon]

Neutral is ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS a current carrying conductor. Please memorize that mantra, it will keep you alive longer.
Jim

 

[JimDon]

I never ever use backstabs. I've removed far too many that had come way too close to starting hotels, motels, homes, garages, family rooms, etc. on fire. If you want to do outlets the "correct" way, pigtail them, and use a half circle of wire around the recep screw. Remember, two "bites of meat iis better than one."
Cheers,
Jim Don

 

[ishiboo]

Neutral is ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS a current carrying conductor. Please memorize that mantra, it will keep you alive longer.
Jim

Yup. The neutral in a circuit carries the same current a hot does, that's why it's the same size wire

 

[mrb]

I never ever use backstabs. I've removed far too many that had come way too close to starting hotels, motels, homes, garages, family rooms, etc. on fire. If you want to do outlets the "correct" way, pigtail them, and use a half circle of wire around the recep screw. Remember, two "bites of meat iis better than one."
Cheers,
Jim Don

also we should differentiate between backstab and pressure plate type termination.

backstab = #14 only, strip the wire and stick it in a hole. this is whats on the $0.39 receptacles, usually only found in residential

pressure plate - this is where you put the wire in a hole and tighten the screw on the side which tightens an internal clamp against the wire. This is whats on some commercial, most spec grade, and industrial grade devices. It is a superior termination, especially when using stranded wire.

 

[smithbd2]

Backstabbed outlets have made me a lot of money.
If someone tells me that half of the recpts. quit working for no reason, that is the first thing I look for.
My MIL lost everything in her large chest freezer because of those.
It is well worth the effort to put the wires under the screws.

 

[ishiboo]

Worked on many a backstabbed outlet, all the electric newbies seem to use them. I've never seen a problem with them installed properly. Drives me nuts when people use them and do everything right and then leave the screws sticking out. Seen plenty of problems with wire nuts being installed on improperly twisted wires causing high resistance. Also have lots of side-screw outlets installed improperly here... barely any wire on the screw, wrapped all the way around and then continued to attach another receptacle, etc.

I think all of these code-approved technologies (including the push wire nuts, which I use for grounds sometimes if I have a lot going on) are perfectly safe if installed properly, and not safe if installed improperly.

My personal preference by far are the pressure plate outlets. Seem to make the best physical connection. You can even perfectly connect #12 stranded to them... I did my boat last year and they were much more fun than installing terminals on every wire. The newer Cooper decora switches that Lowes sells have the pressure plates, I stopped buying the P&S from Menards as they don't and the Cooper's have a better touch anyway.

I just realize I'm starting to rant on this board

 

[Rosco]

Glad I read this board thoroughly before wiring my garage apartment. I used all 20A switches/outlets, 12-2 wire, and have the backstab outlets with the screw tightening pressure plate. Although it might be overkill and cost a little more, I am aware of how much I do not know, and that is where this board and electrical how-to books are priceless. I know I will probably never see a plug that requires the 20A receptacle......but the piece of mind is worth it. I also beleive the plug retention on the Cooper 20A receptacles is awesome.

BTW, great info on the nuetral carrying a load.......learn something every day!

 

[1Garageman]

Glad I read this board thoroughly before wiring my garage apartment. I used all 20A switches/outlets, 12-2 wire, and have the backstab outlets with the screw tightening pressure plate. Although it might be overkill and cost a little more, I am aware of how much I do not know, and that is where this board and electrical how-to books are priceless. I know I will probably never see a plug that requires the 20A receptacle......but the piece of mind is worth it. I also beleive the plug retention on the Cooper 20A receptacles is awesome.

BTW, great info on the nuetral carrying a load.......learn something every day!

Ya this webpage is just flat out awesome in so many ways!

 

[JimDon]

Roscoe,
Do not worry if you used the screw down pressure plate connectors. I was talking about the cheap, backstabs on receps where you strip about 1/4 inch of wire and push it in a little hole in the back. To release, you slip a small screwdriver blade in another hole next to it to release the wire. These are the crappy ****** (and cheap) ones I was talking about. If you put wire in a slot behind a pressure plate and screwed it down, you're good to go and don't have to worry. I did not make the distinction in my original post and should have, but MRB cleared it up and I agree with him completely.
Hope this helped.
Jim