Backup Gen Set

[nate379]

I have been keeping my eyes open for a used gen set for backup for my house.

While a "built in" 20kw-30kw would be great I'm not needing power that bad.

For a portable unit, does something in the 5-6k area seem practicle to power a house?

I'm talking the boiler, refer, and a few lights.

I figure the boiler pulls about 10 amps as does the refer, so 20 amps there. Lights, 5 amps let's say... 25 amp constant which is 3000 watts. Sound about right?

Would leave enough lee way I could probably run the washing machine, maybe even the microwave?

 

[HOTFR8]

To small. An 8KVA gen set would power only the basics.

 

[mdbeck1]

I was always told that the power ratings for the generators are "peak power" and you should plan on 1/2 of the "peak load" for sustained load. So a 6kW generator should not be loaded past 3kW.

 

[Stuart in MN]

The thing that really dictates the size of a generator are motor loads - things like furnace blowers, air conditioners, or refrigerators. Once they're up and running they may not take a lot of power but the generator has to be sized to handle the startup loads. Things like light bulbs or television sets are less of an issue.

Most generator manufacturers have a worksheet on their website you can use to figure out what you need, do some searching around. A couple you can try are http://www.cumminsonan.com/residential/select/ and http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/generators/content.aspx?asset=gg_howmuchpower

 

[nate379]

The gen sets I'm looking at are 5k continuous and ~6k peak.

Something like this:
http://anchorage.craigslist.org/tls/1804332120.html

The Cummins site says I need 2000watts.

 

[rodnok1]

It would be fine, I've used a 5k many time to power the following at once: Window a\c, fridge/freezer/tv/lights without a problem. If you turn on the coffee maker forget about it...
I use the microwave, just turn off a/c while using it.
Make sure to use surge protection for electronics, port gen are notorious for eating tv's due to dirty power. I usually plugged in older tv's and dvd players I didn't care about.

 

[tcianci]

Hey Nate, mark the date on your calander...it's the first time I agree with you. However your're way over on the amount of power you need for your boiler. If it's an oil fired boiler, the burner uses some juice on the order of a couple amps and the circulators are less than an amp a piece. The biggest thing as stated is motor starting. Older fridges can draw 7+ amps running, the newest one I have draws 3.2 amps running,and thats a 20 something cubic foot ref/freezer. Since your place is new, I'm assuming that your appliances are new as well. a 5-6KW generator will serve you well. Wait! NO welding!

 

[sstruckguy]

After going through an ice storm,(January 09') that left surrounding areas without power for 30 days plus, your basic "needs" can be skewed by the amount of days to think about it.

If you want something that covers the basics, plan on something that will power at least half of your power needs. Speaking from experience, food/preservation, cooking ability, and heating/cooling are the first things to look at.

If you can't keep your freezers/fridges going, you will lose or not be able to maintain what you have spent money on.

If you can't cook your nice frozen/unfrozen food, you have to rely on your dry goods.(not very tasty or filling)

Trying to eat when its below freezing in your house, or hot enough to fry eggs on the kitchen counter top, also makes life rotten and uncomfortable.

Long story short, buy enough gen to take care of your basic needs!! Screw the christmas lights and alarm clock, figure out what you need.Period.

BTW, something else to think of is your gen fuel source. I went through a fuel issue. I didn't have power, so the local/non-local gas station didn't either.(no power)

Its hard to start your gen, without fuel. You may want to consider propane/natural gas, which usually isn't an option with 5k-6.5k gens

 

[hmbemis]

BTW, something else to think of is your gen fuel source. I went through a fuel issue. I didn't have power, so the local/non-local gas station didn't either.(no power)

Its hard to start your gen, without fuel. You may want to consider propane/natural gas, which usually isn't an option with 5k-6.5k gens

Went through the same thing with an ice storm last winter--knocked out the power for over a week, including to all the gas stations within 20 miles... the only one in the area with backup power was rationing 10G per customer and had lines of people waiting to fill up their can. The nearest town with power was about 20 miles away, so that's not a fun drive to have to make just for gas daily.

I'd consider a tri-fuel generator, Northern has some nice portables that are in the 6500-13000 watt range, use Honda motors too I think? The fuel switch over is not seamless, but it's straight forward I believe.

You can't count on natural gas in all situations, gasoline goes stale and is volatile to store. Propane doesn't go bad, and it's easier to store a 100lb cylinder then an equal amount of gasoline... but keeping a steady supply of propane is going to get heavy and expensive--unless you use it for your central heat and have one of those 500G cylinders in your yard.

 

[Junkman]

The ideal home genset is a 1800 RPM diesel water cooled. I have seen some new ones, but they are not cheap. I rarely find any used ones, and the few used ones that I have found have been worked hard in the past. 8 -12 KW is probably what you will need if you want to run it for long periods.

 

[nate379]

I'm just looking for something to run the fridge/freezer, boiler and a few lights. Yeah I'd love to have a full on UPS/30kw diesel Gen Set, but my wallet is giving me a big FU on that one!

I don't hardly watch TV so not an issue for me and I don't have A/C, doesn't get hot enough.

 

[larry4406]

I have a Generac 7.5 kw with surge to 13 kw. It has handled my needs during power outages. Fuel is gasoline. It powers the well, 2 fridges, gas furnace, basic lighting, TV and satelite dish, microwave, washer & gas dryer. Has worked ok for me.

 

[lawfarm]

I have a Honda GX powered 8000W (9000 surge) generator that I use for my whole house. I've got gas hot water heater and gas stove, but an electric clothes dryer. The 8000W unit easily runs everything in the house (including the furnace, microwave and dryer, plus lights and TVs)--and my house is about 2700 sq.ft. We can live relatively normally with the generator running and with no power. The only thing I haven't tried is determining whether it will run the central air...

Otherwise, 8000W is all I need. Sure, 20kw would be nice (as would an 1800rpm diesel, or an automatic standby), but this does the job for me. Got it at Costco about 6 months ago; they still carry this one, too.

 

[nehog]

See, no easy or exact answers!

I have an ex-military 15 KW generator set. It will do 15 KW for 24 hours a day, for as long as needed. You can even check oil levels while running, all you need to do is keep it fueled.

Now, when I compare that 15 KW generator set (with a 4 cylinder diesel engine) to a 15 KW set at HD, I tend to snicker... It is like comparing a real tool (like a Snap-On) to a children's tool set.

Most of the people around here (NH) do nicely with 6500 watt gas 3600 RPM HD style gen sets. Noisy as all get out, but they work, and I've seen them run for days non-stop. Only down side is that they don't last forever, and you have to keep an eye on the fuel, and exercise them so they are really ready.

For computing loads, realize that not all loads are active at the same time, but at startup most will be drawing (furnace, and fridge for example, and well pump if you have one.)

 

[Mattlt]

Do you have a tractor? Could you find a PTO driven genset instead? One less engine to maintain.

Are you going to install the proper transfer switch? Please say yes...

 

[v12man]

I have a 12Kva diesel genset at home (my second try at it - first was 5.5Kva) - more than enough to run my whole household except the electrical underfloor heating (45kva worth) - so we simply left those circuits off the backup power circuits.

3 things to consider (imho) about home based gensets (all found out the hard way).

1 - How much noise does it make - the quieter the better - especially in urban areas, as the neighbours will complain if it is noisy.
2 - how long will it run on a full tank of fuel - (and how easy is it to get more) nothing like running out of fuel in the middle of a cold night.
3 - are you going to automate the switch on of the genset when you have a power failure - again - my opinion is that manually starting them on power failure, and shutting them down again is not an option - they have a tendency to damage electrical devices when the power comes on again and you have to run to turn it off - or get out of bed at 3am.

 

[MrMack]

I have been keeping my eyes open for a used gen set for backup for my house.

While a "built in" 20kw-30kw would be great I'm not needing power that bad.

For a portable unit, does something in the 5-6k area seem practicle to power a house?

I'm talking the boiler, refer, and a few lights.

I figure the boiler pulls about 10 amps as does the refer, so 20 amps there. Lights, 5 amps let's say... 25 amp constant which is 3000 watts. Sound about right?

Would leave enough lee way I could probably run the washing machine, maybe even the microwave?

We are talking about emergency back up power for a interuption of electric company or Coop power right?

I have a 10KW Peak, 8KW constant, twin cylinder gasoline powered portable model I have in the shop ready to supply "emergency power" fridge, freezer some heat and water pump for the well, Some TV for news, lights and some cooling. I also use it out on the area to power a welder, water pump, Camper etc. It and a water pump fits easily in the back of my Kawasaki Mule, to fight fire if power lines are down because of the fire. I have a 220 50 amp outlet in my shop and I disconnect the power manually with the 200 amp breakers in the required disconnect on the meter service.
I connect the generator to the 220v 50 amp outlet in the shop with a double male 50 amp 6 gauge cord I built. It is 100% manual and after the power is off for a couple of hours (happened one time in last 20 years) I flip the 200 watt breakers off, fuel up the Generator, connect it to the 220 50 amp outlet and Walla, power everywhere on the place. I can run the Cent A/C and fridge, freezer lights and small TV (Dish) and the well pump, on demand. The highest wattage in my house is the 4000 watt electric water heater, the 4000 watt electric range and the 4000 wat central heater. I only let one of these power hogs run alone and only when necessary. You need to make a test run every year, about tornado time....How much do I have invested? How about $800. I will use the $20,000 others spend on a backup generator and automatic hookup to buy a good used low milage pickup, a nice pontoon boat and the Used Kawasaki Mule, I also have a set of gas logs (150 gallon propane tank) in the WB fireplace several single electric hot plates, crock pots, propane grill and a complete 5th wheel travel trailer if it get's too bad for too long. and a backup 24000BTU window A/C in the master bedroom.....but that is just my way....a 55 gallon drum of gasoline treated with Seafoam is always ready to go, I use it all year for boats, Mule, Generator, mowers and refill it when the first frost is on it's way........
All the important stuff We turn over to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
May you all have the peace that comes only from God!

 

[mooman]

After living through the storms we had here in the past week here in Chicago, I can speak from experance. Over this weekend, we were out for 32 hours.
I have a 5700 KVA, 7100 peak genarator.
Runs the fridge, sump pump, three fans, and two lights just fine. Even had TV when we weren't running the sump pump. I felt guilty about that...........

 

[Teken]

I am going with a Generac 20 Kwh NG, with a 200 amp auto transfer switch. I don't want to worry about anything. This unit has the quietest dB output in its class, comes with a aluminum body so I wont have to worry about rust for at least 25 years.

And it is the clean power version so all my electronics etc won't get fried. Regardless of all the bells and whistles on this unit all my gear, and the entire panel entry is protected by surge arrestor, UPS, and secondary surge spike out lets.

You never know which one of these companies claims are just that, claims . . .

 

[Stuart in MN]

I have a 220 50 amp outlet in my shop and I disconnect the power manually with the 200 amp breakers in the required disconnect on the meter service.
I connect the generator to the 220v 50 amp outlet in the shop with a double male 50 amp 6 gauge cord I built.

I'll assume you know this is an illegal and dangerous way to connect a generator set, but you choose to do so anyway.

 

[Rudyjr]

I just installed a 10 circuit Reliance manual transfer switch along with a Generac XP8000e generator. It easily handles my well and sump pump, furnace blower, refrigerator, family room lighting and receptacles, kitchen, master bedroom,and bath lighting and kitchen receptacles for the microwave and coffee maker. The Reliance transfer switches are an easy and cost effective way to LEGALLY hook up a portable generator and not kill a lineman

 

[Saskabush]

I am going with a Generac 20 Kwh NG, with a 200 amp auto transfer switch. I don't want to worry about anything. .

If you don't want to worry about anything, perish the Generac thought.


I would recommend a Winco or Kohler.

Here is an online Canadian company:

http://www.generatorsolutions.ca/standby-generator/winco-residential.php

 

[Saskabush]

I have a 220 50 amp outlet in my shop and I disconnect the power manually with the 200 amp breakers in the required disconnect on the meter service.
I connect the generator to the 220v 50 amp outlet in the shop with a double male 50 amp 6 gauge cord I built. It is 100% manual and after the power is off for a couple of hours (happened one time in last 20 years) I flip the 200 watt breakers off, fuel up the Generator, connect it to the 220 50 amp outlet and Walla, power everywhere on the place.

I cannot speak for America, but I know that this set-up is a serious violation of all provincial electrical codes in Canada. I personally know of criminal prosecutions of people who have done this and harmed line workers.

At the very least, install a manual panel transfer switch:

http://www.norwall.com/product_info.php?cPath=71&products_id=964

 

[impulse922]

decide on how much fuel you plan to keep on standby, then figure out what size is right for you.

Generators are useless without fuel.

Sure its nice to have a bad *** one that ***** down 5 gallons in 6-8 hours, but when you can have one that runs the bare essentials and uses half the fuel, its a win-win situation.

My experience may be different than some here as we usually only need generators during hurricane season(IE: summer). During katrina we have a 6kw(4.5 continuous) homelite that did the job great, but we got a 3.5kw one from a friend that evacuated, and it ran the double door fridge and a fan like no ones business all while using a fraction of the fuel.

 

[MrMack]

NO!! It is NOT an illegal and dangerous way to connect a generator set!
You just need to know what you are doing, it is apparent that you don't!
Some folks have no idea of what is and is not illegal anywhere , even where they live!!!

I know not what is legal in the land of the Ex-Wrestler, Ex-Governor but I do know about where I live. I do have a manual disconnect and it is under lock and key, also the mechanical switch lever in the positive mechanical disconnect between the disconnect breaker box and the Coop meter is under lock and key. I hope that your Asian built automatic transfer switching panel works as well as my old Square D mechanical and electrical one does when I throw the switch I have indicators on the box that show when power is coming from the meter. I would not feel so secure with the automatic one, myself!

I also have loaded rifles, shotguns and pistols in my house, and I drive cars that never had seat belts installed in them. I just feel lucky, not invisable and bullet proof...but lucky.

I don't have time to wait on a 911 call or ICE to save me from the bad guys!

 

[Mattlt]

MrMack,

What happens when your wife or child picks up that double-male cordset and plugs it into an outlet? Are they as smart as you?

 

[nate379]

You were bitching about spending a few hundred on grass seed but your going to spend $10k on a gen set?

I am going with a Generac 20 Kwh NG, with a 200 amp auto transfer switch. I don't want to worry about anything. This unit has the quietest dB output in its class, comes with a aluminum body so I wont have to worry about rust for at least 25 years.

And it is the clean power version so all my electronics etc won't get fried. Regardless of all the bells and whistles on this unit all my gear, and the entire panel entry is protected by surge arrestor, UPS, and secondary surge spike out lets.

You never know which one of these companies claims are just that, claims . . .

 

[nate379]

It's not illegal here as long as you turn off the main breaker.

I'll assume you know this is an illegal and dangerous way to connect a generator set, but you choose to do so anyway.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Both Texas and Alaska follow the National Electric Code, which in Article 702 calls for a suitable transfer switch that will "prevent the inadvertent interconnection of normal and alternate sources of supply."

The local electric utilities usually have something to say about it as well. I don't know where Mr. Mack lives, but the electrical coop in Palmer, AK says this on their website: "Prevent back feed – Never wire a building’s electrical system into a generator. This can cause power to “back feed” through the electric meter and into MEA's power lines. Line technicians attempting to restore your power can come into contact with the unidentified power source you created and be injured or killed." http://www.mea.coop/index.php/member-service/safety

As far as a power cord with two male ends on it goes, they call them suicide cords for a reason.

 

[Teken]

You were bitching about spending a few hundred on grass seed but your going to spend $10k on a gen set?

I have priorities . . . Grass is literally at the rock bottom! You can't cook with grass, you can't eat grass, and you certainly can't heat your home with grass. Lastly, grass doesn't power my Internet connection very well, does yours?

See who has their priorities straight?

Grass vs Generator? hrmmmmmmmmmmmmmm pretty sure generator and being able to stay warm, cool, cook, bath, surf, watch ****, etc is much much higher than grass.

So, generator . . .

Also, with all in the price is still under $6500, for peace of mind . . . Not 10K, I still need grass!

 

[nate379]

Sure, but next line...

Turn off main power switch – Even if the electric power is out, turn off the main power switch before running the generator. When power is restored, the renewed electricity can cause your generator to back feed.

Both Texas and Alaska follow the National Electric Code, which in Article 702 calls for a suitable transfer switch that will "prevent the inadvertent interconnection of normal and alternate sources of supply."

The local electric utilities usually have something to say about it as well. I don't know where Mr. Mack lives, but the electrical coop in Palmer, AK says this on their website: "Prevent back feed – Never wire a building’s electrical system into a generator. This can cause power to “back feed” through the electric meter and into MEA's power lines. Line technicians attempting to restore your power can come into contact with the unidentified power source you created and be injured or killed." http://www.mea.coop/index.php/member-service/safety

As far as a power cord with two male ends on it goes, they call them suicide cords for a reason.

 

[Teken]

MrMack,

What happens when your wife or child picks up that double-male cordset and plugs it into an outlet? Are they as smart as you?

I have to agree as much as it pains me for some of the things I have done in my home.

Many things would have costs a lot less, if it wasn't for other people living in this house.

I can't assume others will know or be aware of what to do, or what not to do. Hence why I spent so much extra cash so the systems in the house were totally dumby downed for 10 year old child.

Safety, and the lives of others are paramount above all else . . . Use a auto transfer switch . . .

 

[Stuart in MN]

Sure, but next line...

Turn off main power switch – Even if the electric power is out, turn off the main power switch before running the generator. When power is restored, the renewed electricity can cause your generator to back feed.

And if you read down that same page a little more:

"Standby generating facilities shall be installed in accordance with the Association's "Service Assembly Guide" and shall include installation of a double-throw switch on the consumer's side of the kilowatt-hour meter, with capacity in either position equal to the total connected electrical load through the switch. All such installations shall be subject to prior approval of the Association in order to ensure the safety of the Association's personnel."

There's also a link at the bottom of the page to diagrams showing the correct way to install a transfer switch.

 

[thammel]

I have a buried 500 gal propane tank for part of my home's energy use. I installed an 8kw Winco generator with automatic transfer switch. The switch feeds a subpanel which distributes the power. The system works great and handles all significant power needs in my house except the following: A/C and heat pump, electric oven, electric clothes dryer. All else is fine which means the propane furnace, well water pump, all refrigerators and freezers, enough lights, etc. It has come in handy a few times. The generator and transfer switch cost about $3000. I did the installation and all electric work. It's a great system.

Tom

 

[slip knot]

If you plan on using this genset for emergency back up my one piece of advice is to get a chain and lock with it so you can lock it to something so it wont walk off in the middle of the night. I know of several that walked away in Galveston. A noisy genset and lights in a dark quiet neighborhood is a magnet for all kinds of people, good and bad.

 

[HOTFR8]

Winter here at present and the power has been off twice in the last two weeks for about an hour each time. I am on Solar (also feeds back to the grid) and my battery backup has run the house (& my works) easily with the exception of the heaters and oven that I have on a different circuit,

 

[PassnThru]

I have priorities . . . Grass is literally at the rock bottom! You can't cook with grass, you can't eat grass, and you certainly can't heat your home with grass. Lastly, grass doesn't power my Internet connection very well, does yours?

See who has their priorities straight?

I think it's pretty obvious that you don't have your priorities straight.
You listed your internet connection last after eating and heating. That is like really, really wrong.

 

[Random Guy]

NO!! It is NOT an illegal and dangerous way to connect a generator set!
You just need to know what you are doing, it is apparent that you don't!
Some folks have no idea of what is and is not illegal anywhere , even where they live!!!

I know not what is legal in the land of the Ex-Wrestler, Ex-Governor but I do know about where I live. I do have a manual disconnect and it is under lock and key, also the mechanical switch lever in the positive mechanical disconnect between the disconnect breaker box and the Coop meter is under lock and key. I hope that your Asian built automatic transfer switching panel works as well as my old Square D mechanical and electrical one does when I throw the switch I have indicators on the box that show when power is coming from the meter. I would not feel so secure with the automatic one, myself!

I also have loaded rifles, shotguns and pistols in my house, and I drive cars that never had seat belts installed in them. I just feel lucky, not invisable and bullet proof...but lucky.

I don't have time to wait on a 911 call or ICE to save me from the bad guys!

What you have to have is a means of connecting the generator so that the house cannot be supplied by both the poco and the genny at the same time. Also, I would highly recommend switching to a inlet to connect the generator to the house, so that a standard male-female cable can be used. That way if, say, the cord came unplugged from the house, you don't have an energized male plug waiting for someone to touch it.

 

[MrMack]

Random guy, I live out in the boonies and there are only two people in my house, one has sense enough to "Lever Be" and I am the only one that operates "Lever B" I never advocate unskilled or incompetent folks to do what I do, I just posted what I do FYI.

If we were of the mind to never do anything that has a risk to it, who would have ever went to the New World, or elected Obama or discovered electricity, or cleared a forest or killed a bear, or went to the moon , We have citizens with sorry mind sets now that expect to be cared for and protected from everything from insects to a thug with a knife or a loaded gun in the house, or a bank that "Can't fail" 24/7. Maybe they should be put away in a padded cell room for their own protection, and fed organicly grown gruel. That is all that I have to say....

 

[Radio Flyer]

After living through the storms we had here in the past week here in Chicago, I can speak from experance. Over this weekend, we were out for 32 hours.
I have a 5700 KVA, 7100 peak genarator.
Runs the fridge, sump pump, three fans, and two lights just fine. Even had TV when we weren't running the sump pump. I felt guilty about that...........

Ahhh, nothing like the sound of generators through the night...

On a side note, we did have a local fatality from running a generator in an attached garage. Not sure of the details.