backup "whole house" generators / Auto-transfer recommendations?

[dcg9381]

BTW your pics dont load and id like to see what you have.

Attached. I missed that.


What are the "valid means" for a load calculation? Or is that subject to interpretation?


It sounds like I really have two options, unless I want to move up in terms of generator size:

• ATS with circuits and load shedding - essentially using the ATS as a breaker panel.
• Sub-divide this residence into manageable service entrances with a generator capable of powering the entire service. To me this would likely be 3 x 90A entrances. This may be unusual.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

ok so the ATS would need to go between the meter and the panel for your house.

The house panel would then need to become a subpanel which means isolated neutral bar and moving the GEC for the rods over to the ATS.

Can that Eaton panel be converted to a subpanel?

 

[dcg9381]

Can that Eaton panel be converted?

Converted to an ATS? Yes. That's likely. However, it's 200' from the residence. And putting the generator there isn't ideal either.

The house panel would then need to become a subpanel which means isolated neutral bar....

Understood and agree.

I'm aware you are very knowledgeable on this stuff.

and moving the GEC for the rods over to the ATS

I'll need to come up with a diagram here to make sure this is done right. I assume that the genset becomes source power (like the PoCo) and the ATS then the first "main".

Appreciate all your help.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Converted to an ATS? Yes. That's likely. However, it's 200' from the residence. And putting the generator there isn't ideal either.

Understood and agree.

I'm aware you are very knowledgeable on this stuff.

I'll need to come up with a diagram here to make sure this is done right. I assume that the genset becomes source power (like the PoCo) and the ATS then the first "main".

Appreciate all your help.

I need to be more clear.

No i didnt mean converted to an ATS.

That wouldnt be possible to convert a panel like that to an ATS.

What i meant was can the eaton panel be converted to a subpanel.

I assumed one of the 200a panels is your house panel

However, now that you say the house is 200' away, that would not be the case.

So since you want the ATS at the house, the ATS would need to have a floating/isolated neutral, meaning it would be a subpanel.

Most ATSs are service rated and take the place of the existing main service panel, which then would become a subpanel with an isolated neutral.

Keep in mind there can only be one main service panel, or in your case, eaton dual main service panels directly off a meter and not stacked. After the main service panel, all subsequent panels are subpanels.

So your house panel would NOT be a main, it would be a subpanel. If the ATS goes in between the eaton panel and your house panel, then it would need to be a subpanel.

 

[thammel]

I have a 3000 ft^2 house and have an 8kw Winco unit. It is plenty for the occasional use. We have a 500 gal buried propane tank. Of course, it will not run the heat pumps, but we have a propane furnace for the winter. This unit takes care of the well pump, the fridges and freezers ( we have a bunch) and powers the furnace ( and propane water heater). I did all the installation except for the propane connection. I installed the ASCO switch. What I did is moved everything I want driven by the generator to a subpanel and have the switch between the main and the subpanel. So when utility is on, all is fed by utility. When generator is running and no utility feed, then the subpanel is driven by the generator. It has worked flawlessly for about 15 years.

I might go a little larger next time, but the tradeoff is gallons/hour of propane usage.

Tom

 

[lanaroady]

That's a pretty big generator for a whole house unless you live in a mini mansion. 10 - 12kw will cover most 2000 - 2500 sqft houses. I know Briggs and Stratton is starting to make a name for itself in whole house generators.

Like stated above an automatic transfer switch will most likely involve notification to your utility provider to pull your meter so you can install everything correctly. This will require AHJ permits and an electrician. redadair

Next question is what exactly do you plan on running and for how long? Do you have frequent long term outages? Do you really need HVAC and such during those long outages?

For example: I live in the catchers mitt of NC for hurricanes. We loose power about once a year for a day or two at most except for last September which was closer to a week. I've got a 5000 watt portable generator and plan on installing an interlock kit and RV plug. This will allow me to plug my generator into the house and feed my panel safely and legally. I'll be able to run everything but the electrical heavy items (HVAC, dryer, microwave maybe). My house is piped with natural gas so hot water heater and stove are covered. But other than being warm for a few days most everything will operate as normal as long as I have gas. Long term will be adding another connection to my natural gas lines and getting a motor snorkel (gas to NG conversion kit) for my generator.

All of these things are marked equally with the fact that you will have to face the portable generator and its sounds

 

[yeldogt]

I have a 3000 ft^2 house and have an 8kw Winco unit. It is plenty for the occasional use. We have a 500 gal buried propane tank. Of course, it will not run the heat pumps, but we have a propane furnace for the winter. This unit takes care of the well pump, the fridges and freezers ( we have a bunch) and powers the furnace ( and propane water heater). I did all the installation except for the propane connection. I installed the ASCO switch. What I did is moved everything I want driven by the generator to a subpanel and have the switch between the main and the subpanel. So when utility is on, all is fed by utility. When generator is running and no utility feed, then the subpanel is driven by the generator. It has worked flawlessly for about 15 years.

I might go a little larger next time, but the tradeoff is gallons/hour of propane usage.

Tom

I have this kind of set up at the beach .. even older. Back then there were fewer options and the larger air cooled units .. if they did exist -- must have been much more expensive. All the houses w/ gens around me have this setup ....many built this way new. What I discovered a couple years ago when looking for my new build. Many more choices and not a huge difference in price or fuel use between models. So my plan shifted -- the money saved not wiring/ rewiring the second panel went towards the bigger generator .. simple transfer on the main

 

[Fasthotrod]

What about replacing the 200A sub-panel at the house with an ATS that has an integrated load center? Kohler has some 200A panels that have 24 Square D Type QO breakers in them.

Indoor model:

http://www.kohlerpower.com/home/home-generators/products?prodNum=RDT-CFNA-200B-MV03

Indoor/Outdoor:

http://www.kohlerpower.com/home/home-generators/products?prodNum=RDT-CFNC-0200B-QS6

If you needed more breakers, this one is a 42 breaker load center model:

http://www.kohlerpower.com/home/home-generators/products?prodNum=RDT-CFNC-200BSEQS2

The RDT Series will work with pretty much any generator that has an input start signal. The neutrals are designed to be isolated from the grounds, provided you remove the neutral/ground bond in the panel.

If you'd rather not mess with replacing the house panel, then I'd think that a 200A ATS between the power source and house sub-panel would work... perhaps something like this?

http://www.kohlerpower.com/home/home-generators/products?prodNum=RDT-CFNC-200ASEQS4

It has a main breaker and the neutral and ground bond can be removed to keep it isolated... just depends on how your system is designed to know which way to go.

Hope this helps.

Mark

 

[86turbodsl]

I have an emerson service entrance 200A ATS. The main panel is essentially a subpanel. It works flawlessly. I got it from generatorjoe. It was about 2K if i remember right.

 

[dcg9381]

Keep in mind there can only be one main service panel, or in your case, eaton dual main service panels directly off a meter and not stacked. After the main service panel, all subsequent panels are subpanels.

So your house panel would NOT be a main, it would be a subpanel. If the ATS goes in between the eaton panel and your house panel, then it would need to be a subpanel.

You have it right. The Eaton panels have bonded neutrals (if I recall correctly) - they are main. The shop has an Eaton sub-panel, fed by 90A main, non-bonded neutral.

House would be the same way, non-bonded.

I haven't looked yet - but main feed to the house (I assume would be 200A) - meaning I'd need a 200A breaker in one of these panels. My "alternate" way to do it (perhaps) would be to wire the house via 3 sub-panels, 90A feed each...

 

[dcg9381]

What about replacing the 200A sub-panel at the house with an ATS that has an integrated load center? Kohler has some 200A panels that have 24 Square D Type QO breakers in them.

Mark, I'll look at this - thanks for your suggestion. I can perhaps push for a integrated ATS (with load shedding) as the sub-panel for the house. This seems like a viable option if I don't want to run a huge genset.

Thanks for the suggestion on the generic auto-start. That's helpful too.

 

[Fasthotrod]

Mark, I'll look at this - thanks for your suggestion. I can perhaps push for a integrated ATS (with load shedding) as the sub-panel for the house. This seems like a viable option if I don't want to run a huge genset.

Thanks for the suggestion on the generic auto-start. That's helpful too.

The good thing about a 200A ATS (with or without a load center/breaker panel) that has the optional load controller is that you can go with a smaller genset, or pony up for a big boy. A 200A ATS is essentially rated for a 48kVA/38.4kW generator at 240 VAC & 200A.

So you could start with a 20kW and see if it meets your needs... and if not, sell it and go with a bigger unit.

Mark

 

[d4xycrq]

Here in SE PA we get lots of ice storms. My gasoline genny was running her legs off, so I bought a Generac off eBay. 16KW critter, the one that comes with the auto transfer switch, and does the whole house. Not just some number of select breakers that you move outside.

My neighbour and I are fearless - we did a self install. I bought the propane tank, 500 gallon, and other neighbour with a track hoe did the burial.

Poured a pad for the generator, ran black iron pipe for the connection to the tank, coupled to 3/4" copper, bought two regulators, various fittings and such. Then the serious work comes. Breaking the connection between your meter and your breaker panel and running the heavy leads to and from the Generac auto transfer switch. It was a *****. Worst of all was dealing with the congestion inside my Push-Matic breaker panel. There is no worse breaker panel.

But we got it done. Met-Ed is our power company and gave me an incoherent reply to my question with regard to notice, process, etc, for pulling the meter. In the end, we ignored their incoherent reply and 'just did it'. I twisted the seal back on the meter, and I bet they never even noticed. Meanwhile, they have since switched me to a 'smart-meter'.

Generac has a scheme where you 'register' the generator over the phone. Bit of a secret squirrel handshake. No issues. Least of our troubles.

Generator has been out there for two years now, and I do not regret doing it myself. Biggest pig was running those honking big leads between the panels.

There has been trouble - and I called for warranty work. No issues at all - but as it turned out, my problem was a faulty regulator at the tank. Not Generac's fault, but did cause their machine to throw some odd trouble codes. (gas flow petered out) Another issue, self troubleshot and fixed, were loose spade lugs inside the auto transfer switch. Just needed a pinch with a pair of pliers. Perhaps a seasoned installer would have known to do this on install.

What could I have done better? Maybe bought a 1,000 gallon propane tank. That's all I can think of.

Ray

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Here in SE PA we get lots of ice storms. My gasoline genny was running her legs off, so I bought a Generac off eBay. 16KW critter, the one that comes with the auto transfer switch, and does the whole house. Not just some number of select breakers that you move outside.

My neighbour and I are fearless - we did a self install. I bought the propane tank, 500 gallon, and other neighbour with a track hoe did the burial.

Poured a pad for the generator, ran black iron pipe for the connection to the tank, coupled to 3/4" copper, bought two regulators, various fittings and such. Then the serious work comes. Breaking the connection between your meter and your breaker panel and running the heavy leads to and from the Generac auto transfer switch. It was a *****. Worst of all was dealing with the congestion inside my Push-Matic breaker panel. There is no worse breaker panel.

But we got it done. Met-Ed is our power company and gave me an incoherent reply to my question with regard to notice, process, etc, for pulling the meter. In the end, we ignored their incoherent reply and 'just did it'. I twisted the seal back on the meter, and I bet they never even noticed. Meanwhile, they have since switched me to a 'smart-meter'.

Generac has a scheme where you 'register' the generator over the phone. Bit of a secret squirrel handshake. No issues. Least of our troubles.

Generator has been out there for two years now, and I do not regret doing it myself. Biggest pig was running those honking big leads between the panels.

There has been trouble - and I called for warranty work. No issues at all - but as it turned out, my problem was a faulty regulator at the tank. Not Generac's fault, but did cause their machine to throw some odd trouble codes. (gas flow petered out) Another issue, self troubleshot and fixed, were loose spade lugs inside the auto transfer switch. Just needed a pinch with a pair of pliers. Perhaps a seasoned installer would have known to do this on install.

What could I have done better? Maybe bought a 1,000 gallon propane tank. That's all I can think of.

Ray

They didnt notice because you had an analog meter.

If you did that with the smart meter they DEFINITELY wouldve noticed.

However, the bigger concern is no permit if your AHJ requires one.

 

[d4xycrq]

They didnt notice because you had an analog meter.

If you did that with the smart meter they DEFINITELY wouldve noticed.

However, the bigger concern is no permit if your AHJ requires one.

We're a bunch of hayseeds out here... No police department, no fire department.

Meanwhile, Smartmeter or not, no cell signal, so, no 'smart' features enabled.

Ray

 

[wyliesdiesels]

We're a bunch of hayseeds out here... No police department, no fire department.

Meanwhile, Smartmeter or not, no cell signal, so, no 'smart' features enabled.

Ray

Smart meters dont operate on cellular networks.

Most use 900mhz and operate on a mesh system.

I highly doubt the PoCo is gonna spend thousands on smart meters just to sit there and look shiny without any radio functionality.

Somewhere down the road theres a small box with antennas on it that connects to a transformers secondary for transmitting the usage data.

 

[d4xycrq]

Smart meters dont operate on cellular networks.

Most use 900mhz and operate on a mesh system.

I highly doubt the PoCo is gonna spend thousands on smart meters just to sit there and look shiny without any radio functionality.

Somewhere down the road theres a small box with antennas on it that connects to a transformers secondary for transmitting the usage data.

Cool. Gotta wonder why they still estimate my usage every other month. ~Ray

 

[jade97]

Here in SE PA......Met-Ed is our power company ....

Ray, it sounds like you may be near Hereford Berks County?

The company that installed my Gen pulled the meter themselves & said they contacted Met-Ed and that they would be out to install a new tag. That was March 2018 & the tag has yet to be replaced....

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Cool. Gotta wonder why they still estimate my usage every other month. ~Ray

Call and ask them

 

[dcg9381]

The recommendation for ATS is to buy one built by ASCO. (Asco 185 series)
It looks like on my home - I'll be running two feeds, 100A each, to the residence.
One of those feeds will be on an ATS (and associated generator). So we'll be dividing circuits into critical and non-critical.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The recommendation for ATS is to buy one built by ASCO. (Asco 185 series)
It looks like on my home - I'll be running two feeds, 100A each, to the residence.
One of those feeds will be on an ATS (and associated generator). So we'll be dividing circuits into critical and non-critical.

You cannot run 2 feeds to a structure. Strictly forbidden by NEC.

 

[dcg9381]

You cannot run 2 feeds to a structure. Strictly forbidden by NEC.

In general, I agree and that and this makes sense. IE - You don't want someone to think they've killed the main and still have live circuits in the building.

It appears - and I stand to be corrected - that you can have multiple means as long as they are grouped together:

While 230.70(A) (comment) requires a service disconnecting means, the term “disconnecting means” is defined in Article 100 and addresses not only a single means, but also multiple means that serve together in a group arrangement as the building service disconnect.....

Section 230.71(A) (paraphrase)
... It can be up to six switches or circuit breakers in a single enclosure or up to six switches or circuit breakers in separate enclosures....

There also appears to be an exception allowed for what I'm trying to do - which is enhance electrical supply reliability:

Additional outside supplies feeders or branch circuits shall comply with 230.2(A). be permitted to supply the following:
225.30(A)6
Systems designed for connection to multiple sources of supply for the purpose of enhanced reliability

Here's what I'm proposing - at the most basic level.

 

[dcg9381]

Here's the end goal and associated changes as a result of this discussion. The non-residential stuff exists and is active.

We have some great local electricians. I have not found a single one that is willing to take on bringing in underground utilities, grid connecting a solar system, and then adding an ATS/generator... As such, I've kinda got to figure it out myself with the help of you guys.

 

[d4xycrq]

Ray, it sounds like you may be near Hereford Berks County?

The company that installed my Gen pulled the meter themselves & said they contacted Met-Ed and that they would be out to install a new tag. That was March 2018 & the tag has yet to be replaced....

Yep, Hereford is right up the street. Same Met-Ed. (FirstEnergy) The guys that work the trucks are excellent.

Ray

 

[toplessHO]

Here's the end goal and associated changes as a result of this discussion. The non-residential stuff exists and is active.

We have some great local electricians. I have not found a single one that is willing to take on bringing in underground utilities, grid connecting a solar system, and then adding an ATS/generator... As such, I've kinda got to figure it out myself with the help of you guys.

they make ATS that use 2 emergency systems,in your case solar and genset

 

[dcg9381]

they make ATS that use 2 emergency systems,in your case solar and genset

Solar is on the shop building. Generator needs to be near the home.

Solar and generators can't easily co-exist. Solar is designed to provide power back into the source (generator). Likely the ATS generator/solar deal is for solar systems with batteries, which is not what I have...


wyliesdiesels,
Love to on the code I cited and thoughts on the above diagram.. You're better at this stuff than I am..

 

[gearhead1]

https://www.costco.com/Cummins-20KW...omatic-Transfer-Switch.product.100366327.html

Cummins 20KW with transfer switch for $4500. Keep watch and find one on sale for $4000. The 20KW will do your whole house. The nice thing about propane is no gasoline to deal with so no gummed up carburetor issues.

 

[dcg9381]

Read reviews about Cummins support on this product.

 

[mm08822]

Solar is on the shop building. Generator needs to be near the home.

Solar and generators can't easily co-exist. Solar is designed to provide power back into the source (generator). Likely the ATS generator/solar deal is for solar systems with batteries, which is not what I have...


wyliesdiesels,
Love to on the code I cited and thoughts on the above diagram.. You're better at this stuff than I am..

Not sure how this has gotten so off-track.

The garage w/solar array is separate from the house and gen topic

Remove the righthand 200a eaton panel at the meter and install a 200a disconnect for the house in its place
Run one 200a feeder to the house – main panel = 200a, 40 space w/main cb
(I assume your load calcs are covered w/200a service. You verify.)

Off of the house main panel add a sub panel (200a, 40 space) w/125a feeder
Install the gen xfer switch (200a rated) in between main panel and sub panel
All loads in the sub panel are on backup power. If the sum of the loads are too large for gen, then you need some load shedding. Plan ahead which circuits go to the subpanel.

An ASCO xfer sw will not give you load shedding capability. Stay with a xfer sw provided by the gen mfr. It will have load shed ability.

Don’t waste your time with integrated panels – buy standard panels. Xfer sw goes in between panel. Simple and done.

 

[dcg9381]

The garage w/solar array is separate from the house and gen topic

Designed that way intentionally. Solar and ATS generators cannot easily co-exist. Solar was not intended to provide power during grid outage or support generator operation.

(paraphrase)
* Remove eaton panel, install disconnect
* Install main panel at the house
* Install ATS between main panel and secondary sub panel. Make sure ATS has load shedding.

I get it and agree that this works.
Why do you think this is a better solution than running 2 x 125A feeds to the house and save myself the hassle of replacing an existing panel? (assume the same sort of generator / ATS setup)

The net result of what you are suggesting and what I'm suggesting is the same..

Don’t waste your time with integrated panels – buy standard panels.

Not sure what "integrated panels" means?

 

[mm08822]

Designed that way intentionally. Solar and ATS generators cannot easily co-exist. I agree, wasn’t suggesting that.
Solar was not intended to provide power during grid outage or support generator operation. I agree. You stated grid tied system earlier in thread.

In Post 63 you comment about not finding 1 sparky to do all. Solar vs. gen. vs. house feeders. These are separate modular projects. No big deal if you have to find a solar company. It’s a separate project. Too many topics being discussed at once.


I get it and agree that this works.
Why do you think this is a better solution than running 2 x 125A feeds to the house and save myself the hassle of replacing an existing panel? (assume the same sort of generator / ATS setup)

Compliance with NEC 225.30 – Only 1 feeder permitted to building. You don’t meet any of the exceptions. It is a feeder (not service conductors) b/c of your 200a eaton panel directly off of the meter.

The net result of what you are suggesting and what I'm suggesting is the same. Sure but not to code, nor intuitive and potential safety issue for someone. It’s also easier to scratch your head by simply raising your hand vs. going thru your legs first.



Not sure what "integrated panels" means?

A plain jane distribution panel vs. distribution panel w/integral xfer switch in the same enclosure.