Bad Neutral?

[bannerd]

So I have a very strange issue going on. From the POCO to my shed I have a CH breaker panel. I have two hots and one neutral one ground that go into this panel. I have another line that travels to my barn. I have three wires that go to my barn, one hot, one common and one ground. From the shed I hooked the hot to hot, common to the neutral, ground to the neutral. Turn the lights on in the barn and they light up. Plug a power tool in and all the lights get super bright and power to the tool is not enough to run. Plug a power tool in at the shed and I get full power without the funky lights getting bright.

I called my local electrician and told him my issue, he came over and we tested the line from the shed to the barn. Where it terminates at the barn, I'm getting 240V We shot tested the ends and both came back great, Neutral, Hot and Ground. He called another electrician that he works with and is more experienced and he's going to come out sometime this week. I'm thinking that even the wire came back clean, something isn't right. Maybe just dig it up and run fresh line, thoughts?

 

[mdd1986]

Where is the feeder for the shed coming from? Is it coming from the CH beaker panel? Are you getting 240V across the hot and neutral?

 

[bannerd]

Where is the feeder for the shed coming from? Is it coming from the CH beaker panel? Are you getting 240V across the hot and neutral?

The feeder comes from the POCO. It goes out to the pole. Yes, I'm getting 240 from the CH in the shed.


Pole -------> Shed (CH breaker)---------> barn (Eaton panel)

There is no main breaker on the CH panel. All the breakers are 20amp and the main feeds wire directly into lugs. The Eaton panel has a main breaker that the feeds wire into. 100amp service there.

 

[Alchymist]

So I have a very strange issue going on. From the POCO to my shed I have a CH breaker panel. I have two hots and one neutral one ground that go into this panel. I have another line that travels to my barn. I have three wires that go to my barn, one hot, one common and one ground. From the shed I hooked the hot to hot, common to the neutral, ground to the neutral. Turn the lights on in the barn and they light up. Plug a power tool in and all the lights get super bright and power to the tool is not enough to run. Plug a power tool in at the shed and I get full power without the funky lights getting bright.

I called my local electrician and told him my issue, he came over and we tested the line from the shed to the barn. Where it terminates at the barn, I'm getting 240V We shot tested the ends and both came back great, Neutral, Hot and Ground. He called another electrician that he works with and is more experienced and he's going to come out sometime this week. I'm thinking that even the wire came back clean, something isn't right. Maybe just dig it up and run fresh line, thoughts?

Your "local electrician" should have figured that out in about 30 seconds.

IF you have "one hot, one common and one ground" to your barn and 240 volts,you have a problem for sure. 240 requires two hots, one common, and if up to latest code, one ground.

From reading your posts, sounds like the 'One hot and one common" are actually wired to a 240v double breaker. If that's the case, it's a wonder anything works.

Check the breaker feeding the barn - if it is in fact a double breaker, remove it, replace with a single, put the black on the new breaker and the white on the neutral bar. Then enjoy the 120 volt service to your shed. If you want 240 in the barn, pull a new 4 wire run from the main panel.

Post back how it's wired in the main panel, pictures if possible.

 

[mdd1986]

Sounds like your neutral is connected to a 2-pole breaker. Also be sure to proving proper grounding at the shed since it is a separate building. You will need a grounding rod. Refer to NEC 250.32.

 

[pattenp]

Normally the service drop from the pole to the first disconnect/breaker panel is a 3 wire feed (2 hots & 1 neutral). Then down stream panels from the first panel are fed with 4 wires (2 hots & 1 neutral & 1 ground), the ground and neutral are bonded in the first panel. Is your meter on the pole with a disconnect at that location? That would explain the 4 wire feeder from the pole. The feeder from the shed panel to the barn panel should also be a 4 wire if it was to be a 240V feed.

 

[Rob_b]

Wouldn't it be a good idea to own a decent multimeter to trouble shoot these little questions? Measuring L1-N, L1-G, N-G should give you some ideas of what is going on. Add measurements of additional L (L1,L2,L3) if required. Not a flaming, just an observation...

 

[bannerd]

Here is a diagram, feel free to change it.

http://textik.com/#5ed9971f34a51420

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Wow. Youre lucky u havent burnt anything uprunning it on 240v.

 

[bannerd]

Wow. Youre lucky u havent burnt anything uprunning it on 240v.

From what the electrician told me, you have two hot legs;

L1 = 120V
L2 = 120V
L3 = Common
L4 = Ground

What makes it odd is the barn is getting 240V, that should only happen when L1 and L2 are fed together. Might need to call the power company and see what is going on.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

From what the electrician told me, you have two hot legs;

L1 = 120V
L2 = 120V
L3 = Common
L4 = Ground

What makes it odd is the barn is getting 240V, that should only happen when L1 and L2 are fed together. Might need to call the power company and see what is going on.

This post is making my head hurt.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So I have a very strange issue going on. From the POCO to my shed I have a CH breaker panel. I have two hots and one neutral one ground that go into this panel. I have another line that travels to my barn. I have three wires that go to my barn, one hot, one common and one ground. From the shed I hooked the hot to hot, common to the neutral, ground to the neutral. Turn the lights on in the barn and they light up. Plug a power tool in and all the lights get super bright and power to the tool is not enough to run. Plug a power tool in at the shed and I get full power without the funky lights getting bright.

I called my local electrician and told him my issue, he came over and we tested the line from the shed to the barn. Where it terminates at the barn, I'm getting 240V We shot tested the ends and both came back great, Neutral, Hot and Ground. He called another electrician that he works with and is more experienced and he's going to come out sometime this week. I'm thinking that even the wire came back clean, something isn't right. Maybe just dig it up and run fresh line, thoughts?

First off, PoCos dont give u a ground in the service drop. When u say ground are u talking about the GEC going to the grounding electrodes?

U only have 3-wires in the barn. When was this installed?

U said u had neutral and ground hooked up to the same bar. What panel is that done in? The shed panel or the barn panel?

In the 3-wire feed is the wire youre calling 'ground' insulated or bare?

Can u post up some pics?

From what the electrician told me, you have two hot legs;

L1 = 120V
L2 = 120V
L3 = Common
L4 = Ground

What makes it odd is the barn is getting 240V, that should only happen when L1 and L2 are fed together. Might need to call the power company and see what is going on.

If your tools and lights work fine in the shed where the service comes in then theres no point to calling the PoCo...U have an issue with the feeder at the barn....

Just for sh*ts and giggles, have u tested voltages at the main service panel?

It sounds like the neutral feeding the barn is hooked up to a breaker.

This post is making my head hurt.

No kidding

 

[mdd1986]

The diagram is beyond confusing. Do you have the neutral and ground bonded at the barn? That is very wrong. I don't understand how a licensed electrician would not know this. This is what your installation should look like.

2-Hots (Red and Black)
1-Neutral(White)
1-Equipment ground (green)

 

[wyliesdiesels]

He said its 3-wire feeder, and mentioned only 1 hot wire so that means its a 120v only feed but its getting 240v.

If it was an old 3-wire 120v/240v feed then it would be 2 hots and 1 neutral but no EGC/ground.

Heres another diagram for a 4-wire feeder:

 

[bannerd]

Try this one;

 

[bannerd]

I have another electrician coming to look at it, I'll see what he thinks.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

That diagram is hard to read. Can u take some pics of the panels with covers removed and post them here?

 

[mdd1986]

As i suspected there is an equipment ground as well as a neutral and hot. You would need to install a neutral bus in the panel and terminate the neutral there. it. It should not be connected to main breaker in your shed panel like you have. You will also need a ground rod at your shed panel.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

As i suspected there is an equipment ground as well as a neutral and hot. You would need to install a neutral bus in the panel and terminate the neutral there. it. It should not be connected to main breaker in your shed panel like you have. You will also need a ground rod at your shed panel.

he already said that in his first post. U must have missed that.

Where does he say or show the neutral is connected to the main breaker in the shed? I see it goes to the neutral bar. I think youre confusing the shed panel with the barn panel.

The diagram is very hard to read but it looks like he has the neutral in the barn panel going to the breaker. Thats NOT right. It should be going to a neutral bar. No wonder he has no power for some of the circuits. Because theres no potential between neutral and ground.

OP can u PLEASE take some pics and post them here. It would make things A LOT easier!

 

[mdd1986]

he already said that in his first post. U must have missed that.

Where does he say or show the neutral is connected to the main breaker in the shed? I see it goes to the neutral bar. I think youre confusing the shed panel with the barn panel.

The diagram is very hard to read but it looks like he has the neutral in the barn panel going to the breaker. Thats NOT right. It should be going to a neutral bar. No wonder he has no power for some of the circuits. Because theres no potential between neutral and ground.

OP can u PLEASE take some pics and post them here. It would make things A LOT easier!

From what I was looking at it has the Common(neutral) and hot going to a box labeled 100amp. I assume this is a 100amp main in his shed panel no?

I agree that the neutral should not be connected here but rather to a neutral bus bar in the panel. I guess i missed the part about what he had for conductors. I just assumed it was 1 hot 1 neutral and 1 ground.

 

[bannerd]

I have the wrong wire going to the barn. The wire going to the barn has only two wires. and one twisted pair for ground. I'll get some pictures up tonight. I started to do some digging and it looks like I'm going to need two hots, one neutral and one ground. The panel in the barn has two isolated bars, one needs to be not isolated and attached to the metal box. The other needs to be isolated for neutral. The bar that is bound to the box needs to go to ground or use the ground to back feed to the main panel.

Looks like I have some digging to do.

 

[mdd1986]

That is the correct way to do it regardless if you have problems or not. You will need to add a ground rod for the shed panel connected to your ground bar.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

From what I was looking at it has the Common(neutral) and hot going to a box labeled 100amp. I assume this is a 100amp main in his shed panel no?

I agree that the neutral should not be connected here but rather to a neutral bus bar in the panel. I guess i missed the part about what he had for conductors. I just assumed it was 1 hot 1 neutral and 1 ground.

U misread the diagrams. The top panel in the above diagram is the shed panel, where the service comes in at.

The lower panel is the barn where the issues are.

The neutral and ground on the neutral bar in the shed is fine IF the shed panel is truly the service panel as he said the service comes in on a pole.

This is why we need pictures!

I have the wrong wire going to the barn. The wire going to the barn has only two wires. and one twisted pair for ground. I'll get some pictures up tonight. I started to do some digging and it looks like I'm going to need two hots, one neutral and one ground. The panel in the barn has two isolated bars, one needs to be not isolated and attached to the metal box. The other needs to be isolated for neutral. The bar that is bound to the box needs to go to ground or use the ground to back feed to the main panel.

Looks like I have some digging to do.

Wait a minute. That wire will work for 120v only. If your diagram is correct, then just move the neutral off the breaker and onto an insulated bar. This will make it so u have 120v service in the barn. However, since u only have 1 hot, only the branch breakers fed by that leg will have power.

If u want help with sizing a new feeder let us know.

 

[mdd1986]

ahhh ok. What i was saying was correct I just mixed up the barn and shed part of it lol.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yup!

This is just the reason why i dont like threads without pictures...very hard to discern whats going on...

 

[Slowgsr]

Yup!

This is just the reason why i dont like threads without pictures...very hard to discern whats going on...

I agree hard to diagnose when the op doesn't know what he's describing, but that's the best way to learn!

All I could keep thinking is how it's impossible to have 240v without having IT hooked up to 240v, and that there is some confusion with the description.

 

[bannerd]

Here you go all, let me know what you think!

This is the barn;

I wired the barn (correctly I think) to the way it should go for 120V. I would have to take the band in the back off to isolate a block for ground.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

ok i flipped and lightened the pics.

Its only allowing me to upload one at a time for some reason(admins???)

Theres QUITE a few things wrong here!

Give me some time to type it up!

Shed panel.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Barn panel...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So many things wrong here where do i start?

Most of this will need to be redone and corrected. Im very surprised that your "local electrician" didnt notice any of these issues! Did u happen to find him on craigslist?

First off what year was all this wired?

U said u have a pole where the service comes in at? Do u have any pics? Is there just a meter there or a meter AND a disconnect? If just a meter, then 3-wire to the shed panel is fine. If meter AND disconnect, then u need 4-wire feeder to the shed panel.

Also, your shed panel needs to have a main breaker or a disconnect as theres more than 6 breaker handles.

Do u have ground rods at either structure? I dont see any GECs. If not u will need 2 rods per building as well as a bond to any metalic water pipes.

Your shed panel is fed by SEU which is 3-wire but u have 4-wires and it looks like the 4th wire has been added. First off u cant add wires to a circuit fed by a jacketed cable.

Second, does this cable go underground? If so, that is wrong. SEU/SER is not permitted to be ran underground. The bare AL ground will turn into paste...

Also, the bare ground and the insulated white taped black conductor are landed on the same bar. This is incorrect. The insulated white taped conductor should go to the insulated bar as it does and the EGC/ground needs to be ran to a new bar that is directly connected to the panel enclosure. U can purchase a ground bar kit to do this. Move all branch circuit EGCs to the new bar. Also remove any bonding strip that bonds the neutral bar to the panel.

Looks like the barn is fed by SEU as well. Again if this runs underground, it needs to be replaced with the proper cable or wire.

I dont see what breaker is feeding your barn panel as u have it disconnected. But since its only 3 wires and the shed panel is 4-wire, all u can have is 120v service in the barn.

I wouldnt bother disconnecting the black bar that connects the neutral bars. Its best to buy a ground bar kit to accomplish what u need.

That bare AL ground in the barn panel should be going to a separately purchased ground bar. Also, because u only have one hot feeding the barn panel breaker, only the breakers on the corresponding bus bar will have power.

This feed to the barm shouldve been 4-wire to get 120v/240v service in the barn.

Just out of curiosity who wired all this? If it was u then I will reserve any comments about it. On the other hand, if a "local electrician" wired this , then he needs a swift kick in the ****! wned:

Im sure others will chime in with whatever i missed but this is start!

 

[Mustang51js]

So I have a very strange issue going on. From the POCO to my shed I have a CH breaker panel. I have two hots and one neutral one ground that go into this panel. I have another line that travels to my barn. I have three wires that go to my barn, one hot, one common and one ground. From the shed I hooked the hot to hot, common to the neutral, ground to the neutral. Turn the lights on in the barn and they light up. Plug a power tool in and all the lights get super bright and power to the tool is not enough to run. Plug a power tool in at the shed and I get full power without the funky lights getting bright.

I called my local electrician and told him my issue, he came over and we tested the line from the shed to the barn. Where it terminates at the barn, I'm getting 240V We shot tested the ends and both came back great, Neutral, Hot and Ground. He called another electrician that he works with and is more experienced and he's going to come out sometime this week. I'm thinking that even the wire came back clean, something isn't right. Maybe just dig it up and run fresh line, thoughts?

If your getting 240v to the barn and you only have the 3 wire like in the pic,then the neutral is bad going to barn. That whole set up is a mess and should be done right. At least start by separating the grounds and neutrals so your not back feeding on the grounds. What's the distances from the shed to barn,if not to far then it may not cost to much to run new pvc pipe underground and pull the right wire in,same as from house to shed. Might not be what you want to hear but what you have right now is an accident waiting to happen.

 

[Mustang51js]

Also are you sure the hot and neutral in the barn panel are hooked up right to the breaker and neutral bar,the may be mixed up where the hot is connected to the neutral bar

 

[wyliesdiesels]

If your getting 240v to the barn and you only have the 3 wire like in the pic,then the neutral is bad going to barn. That whole set up is a mess and should be done right. At least start by separating the grounds and neutrals so your not back feeding on the grounds. What's the distances from the shed to barn,if not to far then it may not cost to much to run new pvc pipe underground and pull the right wire in,same as from house to shed. Might not be what you want to hear but what you have right now is an accident waiting to happen.

if the second diagram that he drew up(its diconnected in the pic) is how it was hooked up(hot leg to barn connected to lug in shed panel) and neutral and ground connected to neutral bar, i fail to see how he would get 240v at the barn. Its not possible since theres only one wire hooked up to one lug in the shed panel...unless hot and neutral are reversed upstream of the shed panel...

 

[Mustang51js]

Yeah I'm thinking something is mixed up and getting back fed,that's all I can really come up with on this since it's so rigged up. Who knows what else was done that we don't see. Plus we don't know how the guy tested,and I see wires disconnected in pics

 

[CNGsaves]

Time for "Mike Holmes style" and tear it out and start over !!

Likely more cost effective to yank & replace, than mess with hodge podge. Good luck.

 

[bannerd]

Still waiting on the electrician. I found another main panel last night on the property. The panel is owned by national grid and has a meter on it. There is a access panel on there which I opened. 200amp breaker goes to the house and then it looks like there is a 55amp breaker that goes to the shed and barn. I turned the breaker off(55amp)at the panel and the lights in the shed went offline.

Now this is looking a lot more normal than what I'm use to. There is a ground rod here and looks like another ground rod about 8ft away from the first one.

To get access to this panel it says call national grid and there is a tag with a big padlock on it. I assume that I'm going to need to call them if I run new wire.

I found a grey connection box attached to the shed, after opening it. It looks like ********* balls where they fused the line. Time to get some hardware and get this thing going. I'm going to start at the barn, lay new wire to the shed. Remove the breaker panel here and put something more modern in. Then dig to the main panel, let national grid hook it up from there. I don't see a ground rod near the barn or the shed so I guess this thing just back feeds to the main panel.

No I didn't wire this at all, my wife and I just obtained the property and on a bright day the barn is very dark. Couldn't have it just work when I turned the lights on but then again, maybe a reason for that!

 

[mdd1986]

So many things wrong here where do i start?

Most of this will need to be redone and corrected. Im very surprised that your "local electrician" didnt notice any of these issues! Did u happen to find him on craigslist?

First off what year was all this wired?

U said u have a pole where the service comes in at? Do u have any pics? Is there just a meter there or a meter AND a disconnect? If just a meter, then 3-wire to the shed panel is fine. If meter AND disconnect, then u need 4-wire feeder to the shed panel.

Also, your shed panel needs to have a main breaker or a disconnect as theres more than 6 breaker handles.

Do u have ground rods at either structure? I dont see any GECs. If not u will need 2 rods per building as well as a bond to any metalic water pipes.

Your shed panel is fed by SEU which is 3-wire but u have 4-wires and it looks like the 4th wire has been added. First off u cant add wires to a circuit fed by a jacketed cable.

Second, does this cable go underground? If so, that is wrong. SEU/SER is not permitted to be ran underground. The bare AL ground will turn into paste...

Also, the bare ground and the insulated white taped black conductor are landed on the same bar. This is incorrect. The insulated white taped conductor should go to the insulated bar as it does and the EGC/ground needs to be ran to a new bar that is directly connected to the panel enclosure. U can purchase a ground bar kit to do this. Move all branch circuit EGCs to the new bar. Also remove any bonding strip that bonds the neutral bar to the panel.

Looks like the barn is fed by SEU as well. Again if this runs underground, it needs to be replaced with the proper cable or wire.

I dont see what breaker is feeding your barn panel as u have it disconnected. But since its only 3 wires and the shed panel is 4-wire, all u can have is 120v service in the barn.

I wouldnt bother disconnecting the black bar that connects the neutral bars. Its best to buy a ground bar kit to accomplish what u need.

That bare AL ground in the barn panel should be going to a separately purchased ground bar. Also, because u only have one hot feeding the barn panel breaker, only the breakers on the corresponding bus bar will have power.

This feed to the barm shouldve been 4-wire to get 120v/240v service in the barn.

Just out of curiosity who wired all this? If it was u then I will reserve any comments about it. On the other hand, if a "local electrician" wired this , then he needs a swift kick in the ****! wned:

Im sure others will chime in with whatever i missed but this is start!

The worst part is the barn panel looks pretty new. Usually when this type of work is done a local inspector has to come an approve it. Hard to imagine they approved something like this that is so wrong. Something just doesn't seem to add up here. I'm with you, if this was done by a licensed electrician, I would ask for my money back.

 

[mdd1986]

Still waiting on the electrician. I found another main panel last night on the property. The panel is owned by national grid and has a meter on it. There is a access panel on there which I opened. 200amp breaker goes to the house and then it looks like there is a 55amp breaker that goes to the shed and barn. I turned the breaker off(55amp)at the panel and the lights in the shed went offline.

Now this is looking a lot more normal than what I'm use to. There is a ground rod here and looks like another ground rod about 8ft away from the first one.

To get access to this panel it says call national grid and there is a tag with a big padlock on it. I assume that I'm going to need to call them if I run new wire.

I found a grey connection box attached to the shed, after opening it. It looks like ********* balls where they fused the line. Time to get some hardware and get this thing going. I'm going to start at the barn, lay new wire to the shed. Remove the breaker panel here and put something more modern in. Then dig to the main panel, let national grid hook it up from there. I don't see a ground rod near the barn or the shed so I guess this thing just back feeds to the main panel.

No I didn't wire this at all, my wife and I just obtained the property and on a bright day the barn is very dark. Couldn't have it just work when I turned the lights on but then again, maybe a reason for that!

So those 2 breakers are you main disconnect where you would have your grounding electrode (ground rods) bonded to the neutral. Kind of odd that its not right near the panel. I don't think i have ever seen a 55amp breaker before. But maybe its some old school junk before my time. In any case, the neutral and ground should be separated in your shed panel (not connected to the same bus like you have it currently). Best to probably just buy a new panelboard with isolated ground a neutral bus bars.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Still waiting on the electrician. I found another main panel last night on the property. The panel is owned by national grid and has a meter on it. There is a access panel on there which I opened. 200amp breaker goes to the house and then it looks like there is a 55amp breaker that goes to the shed and barn. I turned the breaker off(55amp)at the panel and the lights in the shed went offline.

Now this is looking a lot more normal than what I'm use to. There is a ground rod here and looks like another ground rod about 8ft away from the first one.

To get access to this panel it says call national grid and there is a tag with a big padlock on it. I assume that I'm going to need to call them if I run new wire.

I found a grey connection box attached to the shed, after opening it. It looks like ********* balls where they fused the line. Time to get some hardware and get this thing going. I'm going to start at the barn, lay new wire to the shed. Remove the breaker panel here and put something more modern in. Then dig to the main panel, let national grid hook it up from there. I don't see a ground rod near the barn or the shed so I guess this thing just back feeds to the main panel.

No I didn't wire this at all, my wife and I just obtained the property and on a bright day the barn is very dark. Couldn't have it just work when I turned the lights on but then again, maybe a reason for that!

Well since u have a disconnect at your meter, then this is your main service panel. All panels after this need to have 4-wire feeders with an isolated neutral bar.

I assume the SEU wire that feeds the shed and barn is ran underground. It will need to be replaced.

I would start fresh. No sense really in wasting more money on an electrician to diagnose what u have just to tell u that it needs to be fixed. U already know that.

The shed and barn will each neeed a set of ground rods. The abscence of ground rods at the barn or shed has no consequence on how the feeder works. Grid electricity under normal circumstances doesn't flow over rods and through the earth.

Now u said theres a splice box on the shed. I would open this up. What they may have done is ran underground rated wire to here and then spliced in the SEU. If thats the case, u need to check and see whether the underground feeder is 3-wire or 4-wire. If 4-wire then it doesnt need to be replaced barring its rated for underground use AND is the correct gauge of wire. The SEU going to the panel however will need to be replaced with a 4-wire cable.

I would check the barn wiring as well and see if the same splicing was done there.

Make sure that any neutral bars are isolated and that the EGC land on their own bar.

As far as the main service panel goes, u should be able to acces the breaker section without calling the PoCo. Can u take a pic of the main service panel?

If u need any help with sizing wire or panel hookups just post up your questions!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

OP- any updates?