Bad Stringer - Looking for Shim Advice

[ICT_Kevin]

I have a stair problem. The stringers aren't right. The top step needs 1 7/16 of shim to sit the right height, and each step down needs gradually less until the bottom only needs 1/16 inch. At the bottom, I'll use hobby plywood for shims. At the top for the thick ones, is there a standard way people shim that much? My wife likes the idea of a solid plywood shim, full stair width under the tread. I like the way she thinks for overkill, but it's a lot of plywood to go all-out like that. 2x stock could do it, but I wonder about splitting. Poplar? Plywood strips? Suggestions? I dive in tomorrow morning hopefully.

 

[HAY YOU]

After all the shimming is done will the tread height measurements all be the same? If not you’d be better off just doing the whole job the right way. It really is a pretty easy job.

 

[The Cobbler]

yup, re build the stairs.

 

[ICT_Kevin]

If we were earlier, that would be my plan. The closet under is insulated and sheeted. Nothing I can't do a second time, but is there a good salvage plan?

They really cut it close on code on rise too. If I shim and to make this work, all the steps will have a 7 15/16 rise. Inspector said 8" max, so pushing it to the very limit. The stairs were supposed to be 6 inches further back and have one more step in them. The stairs are 41" wide and there's a little over 50" landing before the front door of the garage, so I could pack one more 9" tread in I think. Wish I'd caught it earlier.

 

[Zeke]

How many risers? Sounds like the carpenter didn't do the math. Any chance the existing stringers have treads that are not level and lean forward? If so, I think I know the problem. Hint: make sure the first tread is the same height off the floor as the rest are from one to the next.

 

[readhead]

7 15/16" is not code compliant for IBC. Are you under some unique code? Sounds like you don't have enough room for the stairs. Zeke is on the right track. The first rise may be a tread thickness off.

 

[Thumper68]

I would just rip them out and start over, stairs are not something to half ***.

 

[ICT_Kevin]

Yeah. It's a mess. 7.75 looked like the max to me in code, except the inspector's magic 8". The tread lands seem about level, and the bottom step matches the rest once I install 1" thick treads. The rise heights already run 7 11/16 to 7 15/16, so it depended on how tolerant of +/- from 7.75 or if they stuck to 8".

I just measured where a lot of the issue originates. The door at stair top is an exterior style, so the weatherproofing type threshold is 1 1/8 inch above upstairs finished floor level. I didn't think it was that much. If finish floor rolled out to a nosing, the issue would be down from 1 7/16 to 5/16.

Does an exterior style threshold meet code at top of stairs? The aluminum nose has some slope to shed water, and has anti-skid ridges. The seal seat sits 3/16 above the aluminum. Cut out door threshold and re-do seal arrangement looks like another way. I'm not a fan of any, but I need to pick a poison.

 

[ICT_Kevin]

Here's the door threshold. Is this an inspection fail item on its own?

 

[CNGsaves]

+1 for "Mike Holmes style" . . . . . tear them out.

Can't see properly spaced tread/rise for garage steps failing "inspection" . . . whereas a jerry-rigged shim job is screaming red flag.

 

[larry4406]

The houses I build in VA and MD, the inspectors measure to the top of the adjustable threshold on these type doors when assessing riser height. We build to IRC 2012 Code which gives a max riser height of 7.75", and I believe 10.75" minimum tread, with a maximum variance of 3/8" of risers (i.e., all risers in a flight of stairs are supposed to be the same, but Code would accept risers 7-3/8 to 7-3/4). The riser variance will not let you go above 7-3/4". I do not recall if there is a minimum riser height, but small risers tend to be trip hazards.

8-inch risers used to the Code norm, but I think when IRC 2009 came out the stairs changed.

If you paid a framer to build these, then I would have him correct the mistake on his dime along with any associated repairs.

 

[readhead]

Larry is right on the nose. You can ditch the threshold as long as you maintain a smoke seal. Then you can get rid of the 2x4 under the threshold and extend the floor to the nose. That should help your total rise.

Is that a rated door for that application? You might want to check that out before you get to far along.

Don't be afraid to consult with the inspector. They are there to help. I presume you may be an owner/builder and if that is the case the inspectors are used to this kind of stuff.

 

[ICT_Kevin]

I don't really know about door ratings. It's a plain vanilla exterior door from Menards. It was pretty obvious the framers thought I'd use an interior door. What would I look for?

The city uses a 2000 code. I was looking at IBC, should be IRC I guess.

 

[readhead]

Yes, I should have said IRC. They still don't comply. The door between a garage and the house requires a fire rating as does the whole wall.

As I said before, talk to the inspector about what is required.

 

[MagKarl]

I would re-read the code requirements for landings and stairs if I were you. It's never too late to do it right, especially when you've paid to have it done. The inspector may be your best help here if your builder is not cooperative.

 

[LB-1911]

I don't really know about door ratings.

It's a plain vanilla exterior door from Menards.

It was pretty obvious the framers thought I'd use an interior door.

What would I look for?

Does it happen to be one of the Mastercraft Doors @

- Door Style select Fire Door -
https://www.menards.com/main/doors-...r-doors/c-9356.htm?criteria1_facet=Fire+Doors

 

[Zeke]

I would never have a step at the threshold. You can do it with 1 or 2 steps.

R311.3 Floors and landings at exterior doors.
There shall be a landing or floor on each side of each exterior door. The width of each landing shall not be less than the door served. Every landing shall have a minimum dimension of 36 inches (914 mm) measured in the direction of travel. Exterior landings shall be permitted to have a slope not to exceed 1/4 unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (2-percent).

Here is a complete discussion.

 

[rburke65]

There is nothing like a bad set of stairs to haunt you for the rest of your days......

 

[M_J]

I've had a similar issue when changing from carpeted stairs to hardwood. The risers were cut poorly and not square. I wanted to tear the stringers out but cost and schedual drove the decision to shim each tread differently to arrive at an acceptabe rise that was equal throughout the stair case. Every time I walk down the stairs it bothers me. If tge strigers are cut wrong, rip them out.

 

[C96]

I would never have a step at the threshold. You can do it with 1 or 2 steps.

R311.3 Floors and landings at exterior doors.
There shall be a landing or floor on each side of each exterior door. The width of each landing shall not be less than the door served. Every landing shall have a minimum dimension of 36 inches (914 mm) measured in the direction of travel. Exterior landings shall be permitted to have a slope not to exceed 1/4 unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (2-percent).

Here is a complete discussion.

Agree with Zeke on this. Hard to believe a landing is not required at top of stairs. This seems extremely dangerous and should be a code violation. To open a door when exiting a room and your first step out is a flight of stairs.

 

[readhead]

This isn't an exterior door.

 

[Zeke]

This isn't an exterior door.

It's an exterior door if it opens into an un conditioned space and this one is only because the OP mentioned fire door. By the look of the OSB in the pic, this door clearly opens to a basement or downstairs garage.

 

[larry4406]

Agree with Zeke on this. Hard to believe a landing is not required at top of stairs. This seems extremely dangerous and should be a code violation. To open a door when exiting a room and your first step out is a flight of stairs.

All of the houses my company builds are built to IRC2012. Only the front exterior door has a landing (porch/stoop). The door to the basement is straight to stairs without landing. The door to the attached garage is straight to stairs. This is common.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I'm going ask what might seem like a stupid question or two here.

Are those treads 7/16" or 1/2" OSB ? Is that common and/or legal ?

 

[CNGsaves]

It's an exterior door if it opens into an un conditioned space and this one is only because the OP mentioned fire door. By the look of the OSB in the pic, this door clearly opens to a basement or downstairs garage.

+1 it's NOT an exterior door (ie not to exterior of entire building). OP is using an exterior door to separate the lower garage portion, from upper "conditioned space / living space" that he is finishing out in garage (ie 2 story). Thus, you go UP the stairs from ground floor garage to the upper finished space (while still INSIDE the garage).

See pic # 83 of his Build thread in Gallery section:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=248686&highlight=build&page=5

 

[Zeke]

OK, I found this which makes you right.

R311.7.6 Landings for stairways.
There shall be a floor or landing at the top and bottom of each stairway. The minimum width perpendicular to the direction of travel shall be no less than the width of the flight served. Landings of shapes other than square or rectangular shall be permitted provided the depth at the walk line and the total area is not less than that of a quarter circle with a radius equal to the required landing width. Where the stairway has a straight run, the minimum depth in the direction of travel shall be not less than 36 inches (914 mm).

Exception: A floor or landing is not required at the top of an interior flight of stairs, including stairs in an enclosed garage, provided a door does not swing over the stairs.

 

[ICT_Kevin]

The door is one of these:
http://www.menards.com/main/mastercraft-exterior-doors/commander-trade-by-mastercraft-36-x-80-steel-9-lite-ext-door-lh/p-1670052-c-9357.htm

A door at the top of a stair is pretty standard for basement stairs in houses I've known. We'll see soon. No preliminary comments from framing or other inspectors. The landing is big enough if far side of door is ok.

I may be the terrible guy that doesn't take the consensus advice. We have shim heights checked. Likely to do wide shims and attach to the treads for the thicker ones. We've got pan head fasteners and a counterbore bit to mount them without any splitting force. That and glue.

*AHA - you already answered. I just found page 2.

 

[ishiboo]

I agree, the garage door is not an exterior door.

In addition, the wall between a house and garage is not fire-rated, and the door requirements are minimal (separation requirements). The Mastercraft steel door would meet the requirement, I am not sure if it still does with the window present.

If the existing stringers are unacceptable, I would install a new stringer next to it and not shim. Stairs are something if not built 100% correct they will wobble/squeak/etc. in the future.

 

[Dustball]

If the existing stringers are unacceptable, I would install a new stringer next to it and not shim. Stairs are something if not built 100% correct they will wobble/squeak/etc. in the future.

That would be my suggestion as well. Glue and screw new stringers to the existing ones rather than shim each step.

 

[ICT_Kevin]

Well, I liked the idea sistering up a replacement stringer. We were neck deep to turning project scrap into a resolution by then. We glued blocks to the stringers to raise the steps, glued treads to blocks, counterbored and drilled the treads/blocks, ran screws through the treads/blocks/stringers, and got the stairs together. There are more joints to possibly creak, but all the stair runs in the house creak too.



The plan is to enjoy the stairs for 60 years, so if they creak or move enough to annoy, I'll cope then. Construction is exciting, until month 7.

Thank you for all the notes. I learned some interesting bits from the conversation.

Kevin
The ICT Workshop