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balancing a 1" driveshaft?

89GLH

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I have a 1990 John Deere 420 I built, and am having some drive line vibrations. Now 90% chance it's the engine off center by a hair, I wanted someone to look into my driveshaft fabrication. I took it to a machine shop where I was told the 1" yoke is too small for their lathes, and they didn't know how they were gonna verify it. They suggested putting it back in the tractor and turning it by hand with a runout gauge, but I'll be damned if I can get the thing secured anywhere on the frame to be able to measure accurately. I've also seen people hold a hammer handle on the top to see how much it vibrates, and any at all is bad.

I'm almost at a loss here, I have no clue how to verify the DS is actually balanced and I can see the highlights at idle to know it doesn't seem to be running true. Anyone ever build one before that can assist? It uses 1" yokes from TSC, 1" solid bar, and the stub shaft from Honda.
 
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iajonesy

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I think ducks is right on the money with his advice to seek a dedicated driveline shop. That said, this sounds like a phase problem to me. Search on-line for info on driveline phasing. There are some great videos on the subject.

Mike
 

2oolhound

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I'm no expert but I had a lot of DF's made up in the 70's and sure they had to be balanced but they were 3" tube types. A solid 1" DF should hardly need to be balanced I'd think. More like check it for a slight bend. How long is it? I'd be tempted to place a pillow block near the middle and rubber mount that or try a new shaft.
 

nicholasbailey1993

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I agree with 2oolhound, a 1 inch solid shaft shouldn't need any real balancing as long as it's actually straight. I've made several tube drive shafts including the one on my daily driver and I've never needed to balance any of them since I made sure they were straight before welding.

Sent from my A577VL using Tapatalk
 

66cj225

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but I'll be damned if I can get the thing secured anywhere on the frame to be able to measure accurately.
If you have the top deck off, the two frame rails are right there for a magnetic indicator base.
Also lost a yoke here around 500 hrs. Deere still has parts- why fabricate? Just got a fuel pump, only lasted 34 yrs.
 

Bigblue&Goldie

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I have a hard time believing anyone can weld up a driveshaft in their garage and have it come out perfectly balanced. I've also yet to see a piece of tubing or rod that is perfectly straight. Sure, you can probably come up with one that works "good enough" on a tractor or crawler, but I'm sure as **** not going to sit over one that is spinning at any decent RPM. Having a driveshaft come through the floor is something that is hard to forget......
 
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FSrepair&fabrication

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I have welded up alot of these type shafts for pto’s on trucks. never had an issue. I assume youre talking about the 1” square shaft. Do you have a slip yoke on one end? a solid welded yoke on both ends will vibrate like crazy and come apart in short order. You have to have a slip joint somewhere to account for the movement of the motor and axle.
 

Kevin54

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I have a hard time believing anyone can weld up a driveshaft in their garage and have it come out perfectly balanced. I've also yet to see a piece of tubing or rod that is perfectly straight. Sure, you can probably come up with one that works "good enough" on a tractor or crawler, but I'm sure as **** not going to sit over one that is spinning at any decent RPM. Having a driveshaft come through the floor is something that is hard to forget......

^^^THIS^^^

And I can't believe a machine shop can't chuck up a 1" piece of material. You have bigger issues other than driveshaft.
 

larry_g

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You have something like the above? Is it the drive shaft shown spinning near the 39 second mark?
 

matt_i

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If you can find someone with a long bed lathe it shouldn't be too hard to set it up between centers and then use the carriage to assess runout. Even with a fixed pointer rather than an indicator it will tell you something.

Welding yokes would be my biggest concern if I was builiding one. I'd want everything to basically be a press-fit to assure concentricity, then do the weld to transmit the torque. If there's any slop at all between the yoke and the shaft at the initial fitting, the very first drop of weld is going to pull it out of alignment as it freezes.
 

yhprum

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I don’t know what you call them, but the part that holds the u joint must be on the same plane to prevent binding and vibrations. I don’t see a one inch driveshaft having a signifacant imbalance issue.
 
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89GLH

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The machine shop also said a 1" shop shouldn't need to be balanced, which is why they recommended the runout gauge. The 420 doesn't use a slip yoke, where it slips on the hydraulic pump allows for the movement over the splines on the 'input shaft' if Deere would call it that.


You have something like the above? Is it the drive shaft shown spinning near the 39 second mark?

Yes, exactly. Mine isn't an injected engine, its a Honda GX690.

You need to provide more information. Vibration at certain rpm, worse at certain rpm, equal across loss the board? Have you loosened the what we guess is a Honda twin and let it settle where it wants to, then tightened it down? No matter; take the drive shaft to a shop.


https://repowerspecialists.com/collections/all
These guys might even have a shaft for you.

I have not yet loosened the engine to let it settle, I had never heard of that and will try it. As for the link, they provide the parts but use the original driveshaft. I was not aware of this repower company before I built mine 4+ years ago, it may not have been around. No clue.

I think ducks is right on the money with his advice to seek a dedicated driveline shop. That said, this sounds like a phase problem to me. Search on-line for info on driveline phasing. There are some great videos on the subject.

Mike

Never heard of phasing, this is the info I was looking for. I might be calling that repower shop and trying to buy just the driveshaft mounting components, rather than chase down my current issue.
 
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89GLH

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Now that I'm reading about phasing, I don't think the u-joints are aligned the same, will verify tonight.
 
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89GLH

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So much for buying the driveline components only...
7c7e1259895b94ff57cc9045e2f311c4.jpg
 

Bretny

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I have made driveshats before. Nothing that small but i built everything to press fit. I took this shsft upto 7pmph with out to much issue.

Can you setup some V blocks and a dial idicator?
How fast does the shaft spin?
 
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89GLH

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Im not a machinist, and dont have access to v blocks. I could make some, but wouldnt trust their accuracy.
 

joe49

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Have you ever rolled a pool que? You can get a idea of run out doing that. If it has yokes on the ends use three identical pieces of metal or wood to raise the shaft clear of table. Place standards at each end and center. Then rolling it will show wobble if not running true.
 

Bigblue&Goldie

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You'd have to be the man with a welder to control heat warpage enough to not need a balance.
 

Fueler

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I have a 1990 John Deere 420 I built, and am having some drive line vibrations. Now 90% chance it's the engine off center by a hair, I wanted someone to look into my driveshaft fabrication. I took it to a machine shop where I was told the 1" yoke is too small for their lathes, and they didn't know how they were gonna verify it. They suggested putting it back in the tractor and turning it by hand with a runout gauge, but I'll be damned if I can get the thing secured anywhere on the frame to be able to measure accurately. I've also seen people hold a hammer handle on the top to see how much it vibrates, and any at all is bad.

I'm almost at a loss here, I have no clue how to verify the DS is actually balanced and I can see the highlights at idle to know it doesn't seem to be running true. Anyone ever build one before that can assist? It uses 1" yokes from TSC, 1" solid bar, and the stub shaft from Honda.
I have a 420 and it's little brother 318 that started as fixer uppers.
Not like restoring a 1920 Dusenburg but still quite the journey and worth the trouble. This is my second set of these tractors. A 430 is on the wish list but have not tripped over the right one where the owner didn't think it was worth more than when it was first produced. :)

Observations:
1: Your offset engine concerns are needless. Driveshaft u-joints work and stay alive by being offset so the little needles will move a bit. If the joints were dead parallel in line the needles just rattle, brinell and die fairly quickly.

2: I will assume you have already replaced the u-joints. The yokes themselves tend to wear to the point that the joint cup itself is no longer a tight fit. The ID of the joint that slides on the shaft also wears, gets sloppy and moves around. That makes a difference. On one I wound up replacing the whole thing to get it right. As mentioned the joint cups should be on the same plane on both ends. (facing the same direction)

3: Have you looked close yet to determine if one of the engine mount feet is cracked or broken? I can attest that will create a vibration that will make you nuts. These are easily repaired by a competent TIG welder. Remove engine, drain oil, clean off well and take it to the welder.

Do not believe for a second that it can be repaired in the chassis. Throwing some weld on top of a crack does nothing but crack again in a short time.
The crack has to be opened up and filled back in with weld filler to be righteous.

4: I have also run across the engine mount bolts not being tight.

5: If you have a rear PTO the little bracket that keeps the pto from rotating in the chassis gets worn. It will create an annoying rattle and vibe.

Bear in mind these things are all solid mounted construction, everywhere. They will never be totally vibe free.

It seems previous owners treat these things like a throwaway push mower.
Maintenance was never spoken of or implemented
I always found that strange as these things were top to high dollar even when they were new.
 
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Fueler

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I just noticed that somewhere along the line you mentioned Honda.
Have you repowered this? If so you may be back to what a couple of others mentioned. The engine shaft is too high or low compared to the original Onan, throwing your driveshaft angles off. You would not normally think on something like this with a short shaft that it would be a problem but just maybe.....
 
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