Barn Door Challenge

[treehick]

I've got a 20' W x 30' L with 10' side walls and a 4/12 pitch barn.

The door opening is 16' w x 10' tall. And I would like to keep the opening as close to that as possible. (I say this because everyone that has ever worked on projects knows that things always get in the way if you let them, so I'm giving myself plenty of room to get things in and out if necessary.)

I've already purchased six 5/8" panel boards and enough 2x6s to build frames with cross bracing for 4 doors (or possibly 8 doors)

Here's the issue. I would LOVE to build/install Dutch doors. The bottom doors will be 40" tall (same as wainscoting) and the top doors will be the remainder which is approximately 80" tall. My main issue is with the upper doors because of the weight of two 8' w x 80" tall doors.

My initial thought was to use hinged doors and I may still do that. If I do, then the cheapest route I've found is weld hinges @ $5/ea that can support 400 lbs. I'd bolt them to the post(s) and to the length of the door. I could even build a steel frame for the door and/or for the posts to help spread the stress.

I considered bi-fold hanging doors, but I think there would be too much stress on the bottom corner - unless I hinge the door to the walls and install a roller at the centers. That could theoretically work. But if it were free-floating than the bottom would swing into the barn with the doors folded.

My neighbor and others think I should go with a hanging door, forget Dutch doors, and not worry about losing 2' on either side. (There's 4' between the fence and barn, plus a 2' side wall equaling 6' of space to fit an 8' door.) Their argument is that I would still have a 12' wide opening. However, if I went with sliders, I also considered installing a 12' pole to the right and being able to slide a 16' door to the right of the barn. But, I agree with the wife on that being unsightly.

I also considered a curved railing so that the top door(s) could roll to the left and create an additional barrier when the doors are open. (perpendicular to the door opening) However, I could not find curved rails to help support that idea, nor get an idea of how much that'd cost.

The latest thought I had was to install a rail at the top and bottom corner for 4' of the top door to slide and then hinge the last 4' out. That way I'm not installing a post randomly in the yard. I could install a cross brace if necessary. If I have a bottom rail or some sort of buffer, that could protect the metal from when I have the upper door hinged open. (bottom swinging inwards) But my concern is that when the door is closed that it'll lift the outer of the door up and therefore create a sag in the middle. Unless I adjust the outer rollers to roll against the top of the rail, I guess.

Thoughts? I refuse to think there's not an inexpensive route to take. Or that it's impossible.

 

[428PI]

Do you need the space to be rodent free? If so I would think the only solution is a garage door. Perhaps get one in a barndoor style if they make one that tall. (hard to find). Other doors are a hazzle and either swing in the wind and hit your vehicles or like a slider don't seal rea good. But with that being said I have an original sliding door on an old shop built in the teens (I use as a garden shed and small car) that I have a gate opener attached to that we use to store a car and for the most part has been rodent free. Have had evidence of mice one time in my tbird.

 

[Garcky]

From the photo, it looks to me like the only viable solution is a standard segmented garage door and opener. Given the fact that the door opening takes up almost all of the front of the building, I can't see how any other door design will work there. Also, since there is apparently just a dirt floor and no hard apron in front of the building, a door that goes up and down is the practical solution.

 

[Zeke]

Anything is possible. Door hanging (not garage doors) was a major part of my living for 50 years. There are 2 types of doors that most carpenters can't/won't hang because of the time and difficulty. Full arch top and Dutch.

Between the 2 there are completely different challenges. I'll take the Dutch door as an example. If you can't take a dry line and hang it tight and plumb in the exact center of all 4 hinge barrel sets on the jamb side, it will bind or separate somewhere in the swing. If you get off somewhere it's like adjusting valves on a 6 cyl Porsche. You go back and forth until it's perfect.

In the case of wood and weather that can be a real *****.

Just a hint on the arch top for those wondering. The upper most hinge is a 1/4 to a 1/3rd of the way down the jamb. Not your typical 7".

I've installed exactly 2 sets of bifold exterior French doors in 50 years and earned my money. I've readjusted other's a few times and generally made very good money solving a problem that several had attempted and failed. If I would have had a laser that would have shown me 2 angles of the hinges at the same time, it would have been easier.

But even seeing isn't feeling.

 

[Rubberdown]

I would go garage door. Barn doors are not near the convenience of a standard ole garage door, and you could keep your full width. They can make the track super high and out of the way.

 

[kbs2244]

think about bi-fold for the bottom part
and a "normal" garage door to come down to it for the top

there is no law that says you cannot mix and match styles
the above would give you the dutch door advantages
and let you have an opener for the top half

 

[Zeke]

One thing you need to consider is how you will secure any separate upper door system when open,

You mention in-swing something. I wouldn't even have bifolds swing in.

One set of multiple doors I did the center 2 folded back onto the jamb hung doors and the pair swung like one. You can have 4 or 8' open with doors swung back to the outer pair, or all four open. No bifold tracks needed. It takes a little thinking but it does work.

Use the biggest and best hinges you can afford. Gate hinges work pretty well.

 

[treehick]

I did look into garage doors or roll up doors but I'd have to bring the door header down for the hardware to mount either.

Using a plumb bob to hang the post hinges, and then hinge the door in such a way that the weight is centered.

Things to consider. Thanks!

 

[Zeke]

"...and then hinge the door in such a way that the weight is centered."

Somehow that isn't making sense to me. Nothing is weight centered unless it's hanging in a balanced position. The door pulls on the top hinge and pushes against the bottom hinge. If there is a middle hinge it does little work other than keeping the jamb side of the door straight. If you don't believe me, take the top hinge pin out, leave the middle and bottom, and see where the door hangs.

Now this could end up being a 10' tall door. I would use a minimum of 4 hinges if not 5. You may get some support from more than one hinge at the top holding the weight of the door by using more. Aesthetics seem to make installers place the hinges at equal spacing. There is no hard rule about that. You can put a couple hinges a foot from each other at the top (and bottom if you wish). Sometimes I wish I had done just that. I do tend to do that on full arch doors since the top hinge is already too far down for the weight it bears.

Leaf hinges are not as strong AFA screwing into the wood as strap hinges. So far as my search goes no one makes an eccentric hinge that can be adjusted after installed. Leaf hinges can be shimmed. Not so easy with a strap hinge. I have seen some, but I can't put my finger on it. They were likely European. And not a lot of fun.

On strap hinges I tend to not center the holes, but rather bias them over away from where I expect the door/gate to sag. One theory is to hang a door/gate a little bit high and tight on the upper jamb side as it will move on its own sooner than you'd expect. Then you're tasked with filling and redrilling holes. This is strap hinges I'm speaking of.

 

[CraigStu]

I am not seeing the problem w/ a standard garage door. Your framing appears to me to have plenty of room for an install. looks like to me like there is 18 inches from the bottom of that cross beam to the inside of the roof. The only issue is the curve from vertical to horizontal of the tracks. That curve can start below the bottom of the cross beam.
See diagrams here;

Garage Door Tracks | Options, Headroom and Specs

Discover the best garage door track options for your home with Clopay's buying guide. Get expert advice and choose the right track for your needs.

www.clopaydoor.com

See low headroom or dual track here.

Garage Door Tracks: What To Know Before Purchasing

Garage door tracks are the unseen workhorse that will work with your new garage doors for many years to come. Explore your options before you purchase.

artisandoorworks.com

 

[Zeke]

I am not seeing the problem w/ a standard garage door. Your framing appears to me to have plenty of room for an install. looks like to me like there is 18 inches from the bottom of that cross beam to the inside of the roof. The only issue is the curve from vertical to horizontal of the tracks. That curve can start below the bottom of the cross beam.
See diagrams here;

Garage Door Tracks | Options, Headroom and Specs

Discover the best garage door track options for your home with Clopay's buying guide. Get expert advice and choose the right track for your needs.

www.clopaydoor.com

See low headroom or dual track here.

Garage Door Tracks: What To Know Before Purchasing

Garage door tracks are the unseen workhorse that will work with your new garage doors for many years to come. Explore your options before you purchase.

artisandoorworks.com

The OP said:

I've already purchased six 5/8" panel boards and enough 2x6s to build frames with cross bracing for 4 doors (or possibly 8 doors)

Here's the issue. I would LOVE to build/install Dutch doors. The bottom doors will be 40" tall (same as wainscoting) and the top doors will be the remainder which is approximately 80" tall. My main issue is with the upper doors because of the weight of two 8' w x 80" tall doors.

So that might be why he isn't thinking sectional door.

 

[rburke65]

Sounds to me as if the OP wants 4 and possibly 8 doors! I’m probably confused but I have no idea, looking at the photo, where will the 8 doors be placed.

 

[treehick]

Sounds to me as if the OP wants 4 and possibly 8 doors! I’m probably confused but I have no idea, looking at the photo, where will the 8 doors be placed.

Split the 4 doors in half, vertically. But I can do however many doors that I need to as long as it makes sense, works, and are dutch.

 

[treehick]

I'll draw up some sketches just to clarify.

 

[Zeke]

Well here's you major engineering problem: you want 40" high doors that swing and are 8 feet each, bifold, trifold, whatever. Longer than tall is always a problem. Take it from an old timer or not.

 

[kwb]

How many threads have we seen about sagging gates? - that is all the OP is doing is hanging 4 very heavy gates and adding the complication of needing to maintain tight gaps instead of a typical 2-3" reveal around a gate. What could possibly go wrong?

I appreciate the idea of "when in doubt build it stout" but framing the doors out of 2x6's and 5/8 ply is just going to make this even harder to do with all the mass. As seasonal humidity comes and goes each panel is going to gain and lose a lot of weight.

Basic insulated door is only $1726 at Menards online - I don't know what you spent so far but if you value your time at much you won't beat buying that door and spending a couple hours hanging it. Based on the pic you probably can even save a bit more by getting an uninsulated door. I can almost guarantee that since you started this thread asking how to build the doors that the execution of installing a factory built door is going to go better than starting at raw materials.
I put my flame suit on so I am ready for the heat for being blunt.

 

[CraigStu]

Well here's you major engineering problem: you want 40" high doors that swing and are 8 feet each, bifold, trifold, whatever. Longer than tall is always a problem. Take it from an old timer or not.

I agree. Instead of 2x6s and 5/8 panel boards I'd be thinking aluminum and fiberglass. As light as possible. I also think that bi or tri fold is asking for more sag. Each hinged joint will add a little bit of sag. Yeah, you adjust the sag out, and how long until you need to adjust again. And how would you build in adjustment? You can't just oval the holes in, say a strap hinge, and expect to be able to loosen the bolts jack the door and tighten the bolts. Maybe there are huge sized hinges like used in cabinets that have a screw to adjust them?

 

[Zeke]

Maybe there are huge sized hinges like used in cabinets that have a screw to adjust them?

Been thinking about this. The first lag could be an eccentric. Another would be a threaded rod from the fixed barrel to a nut on the face of a strap hinge. I was adjusting some gates on strap hinges mounted on pintles. I didn't hang them originally or the thought would have come to me immediately: screw the pintle in one turn, gate raised.

I remembered where I saw the adjustable hinges. They were just that, pintles on all thread, double nutted and through the post. Metal or wood, you could back up or move each pintle outward . Doesn't get any easier.

 

[Monza Harry]

What about a Hanger Door, 2 panels [flat faced] a dozen hinges at the top [or fabbed piano hinge, same at the center seam?], about eight hinges at the seam, and a small crane to open? Use at least 2 ****** blocks to increase the smoothness and duty cycle of that hoist [~30' of cable for 8' of lift]. I would consider a counter weight [or spring assist] as well because the hoist/winches aren't rated for overhead use the ****** blocks will decrease the load on the integral brake. I specified flat panel to afford the ability to add a wrap to create the wainscoting/Dutch door appearance(?). Just an idea +/- Harry

 

[treehick]

Thank you for all the replies and the continued conversation. I'm not trying to be difficult or fight against the grain or appear to be ignorant or disrespectful. If it helps you understand - I'm a working maintenance supervisor that has proved to multiples of people that the "impossible" is possible. Sometimes it just takes a little more thought, research, and/or trial & error. And this is my research - asking others.

I still haven't purchased anything but have looked into a hanger door system or this, a single lift door specifically the E900 hardware, but can't find the hardware. If I were to go with an E900 hardware kit I'd probably try and build a box for the mechanism for safety from the pinch points and springs.

This looks promising but I'd have to install a 2x12 or 2, which would involve cutting notches into the posts and getting into the 6" barn nails.

I've thought about using these strap hinges but to handle the weight of the doors I'd mount two or three on the post perpendicular to the door and one or two of the 24" onto the door, at the top and the bottom with a possible set of 3 in the middle. And use bolts or pins to tie them together. They'll handle the weight, they are relatively cheap, and I could potentially adjust them by placing washers between the strap and the post or elongating the holes in the straps on the door.

If I've ever heard about a horizontal sliding door-I'd forgotten it. But that's not exactly ideal for my situation.

Where would I go if I were to purchase an aluminum 1-piece door that is 16' x 7'? These guys built a steel one-piece garage door using a sectional door.

I know, I know - why don't I go with a modern sectional door with spring and opener? I'm not interested in convenience - I'm probably several years away from even considering using this as a daily garage. I'm looking for functionality, ease of maintenance, and trying to keep costs low(er).

Here's the reason behind the Dutch doors: If I'm working on something that I don't want kids or animals to wander into, I want to block them in or out without having the garage fully closed. Or, during the winter time, if I'm working on something that requires some airflow or doesn't require the door to be fully open, I want to have the option of just opening the bottom and retaining what little heat I might have.

I'm going to be working on equipment, building with metal and wood, either in the barn or in the yard. If I can think far enough ahead to create barriers and functionality, I'm going to attempt to do so.

With the latter being said, a hanger-type door would be especially nice for afternoon work since the opening is facing west.

Thank you again for your shared wisdom and experience. I hope that others glean some value from these discussions. But isn't that usually the hope for these forums?

 

[RPH]

Aircraft hanger style?

 

[treehick]

Aircraft hanger style?

Yea, I've thought of that as well. I believe I'd still have to build up my header and come up with a pulley system or winch system or both. But it definitely has been an idea that's crossed my mind.

 

[CraigStu]

I am a little lost. I just did a quick look at all the links in your post #20 and none of them are Dutch style. On any style door that can be opened so the opening is from floor to an adjustable height how about a snow fence barrier to keep kids/animals out. There are a lot of variations available on a roll in 2-3-4-6 ft widths. They also vary in how thick/strong the material is. You could hang it on small hooks along the bottom of the door and then use a webbing strap to stretch the bottom edge tightly across the opening.

 

[treehick]

I am a little lost. I just did a quick look at all the links in your post #20 and none of them are Dutch style.

That’s because I can’t find an example of what I’m trying to do. However, E900 hardware only handles doors that are approximately 6’ - 7’, which is what the top portion would fall under. Same with the rest of the links: they all can work as an upper door, independent of bottom doors, if I’m able to succeed.

Roll fencing isn’t a bad idea if I don’t do end up going with a Dutch design.

 

[racecougar]

I know, I know - why don't I go with a modern sectional door with spring and opener? I'm not interested in convenience - I'm probably several years away from even considering using this as a daily garage. I'm looking for functionality, ease of maintenance, and trying to keep costs low(er).

Wouldn't those criteria point toward using a modern sectional door, not away from it?

 

[treehick]

Wouldn't those criteria point toward using a modern sectional door, not away from it?

Not really. Being a maintenance supervisor I have to deal with sectional doors and openers on a semi-regular basis. The main spring up top scares the **** out of me and I've only adjusted them a few times. Sectional doors are like IFS of doors - more moving parts, more things that could go wrong, and the cost is higher.

I'm currently looking on how to build a metal door. Wondering if corrugated metal and metal studs would be lighter than a wood door. If I can build a lighter door out of metal, than I could go with either the E900 hardware or go with hinges.

 

[Zeke]

Wood can be heavy. Back when tract housing garage doors were wood they were 2 x 3 construction covered by 3/8ths T1-11. And they were a couple hundred pounds (or so it seemed) for a 7 x 16.

The lightest door is AL with an AL skin.

 

[Monza Harry]

Ok on to plan "F" or is it "G,-H"? Well onward and upward (pun intended). Build a conventional sectional door with 2 panels for the top half, with standard type opener? The another 2 panel door for the bottom, this 1 would have a separate track stacked behind the upper sections track, with lesser height track, and dedicated operator. Door operators [jack shaft is my "vision"] would require an interlock safety, or microprocessor co-ordination to operate, but thats a project thread that will runaway here. Separate torsion springs presumably offset similar to the doors. Lower door would mean custom roller brackets. Door operators that can be mounted on either side [left for lower, and right for upper(? +/-)] would be needed. I'm just spit balling here, let's see if we can run with this or the next possibility. Harry

 

[CraigStu]

Another version of Monza Harry's idea. A more or less standard sectional door but the bottom to 2nd section has no hinges connecting them. Hit the button and the top sections go up just like normal while the bottom section sits on the ground/floor. That section needs an extra pair of wheels so two wheels each side. It should be light enough to lift by hand so have a piece of line hanging from the center of the second section w/ a hook on it to hook into the grab handle on the bottom section to hold it up.

 

[Monza Harry]

Craig that isn't anywhere near complicated enough for GJ! WTF? Harry

 

[kbs2244]

I still like my mixed design of a hinged bifold bottom half and a sectional top half

at 16 feet wide each half would be 8 feet
with 2 panels per side that is 4 foot wide panel
easy to fab and light enough to not stress the hinges
a convention sectional 16w x 4h door coming down to meet it would be simple, light weight, and cheap to buy

I agree with the complaint that sectional doors are complex, too many parts, assemblies
but with millions installed all the design errors have been found and solved

this would give you your 16 x 8h door with dutch door design advantages in an easy to install and use door

 

[treehick]

Loving the ideas! Thanks everyone!

 

[Monza Harry]

@Craig Stu thinking about your split door plan, the standard hinges could be modified to have a removable clevis pin on a lanyard to make switchover pretty easy. This will need separate torsion springs for each door half, but otherwise a pretty standard installation. Harry

 

[treehick]

Alright - so...my inability to make a decision is stalling my ability to start moving stuff into the shop, so I think I'm going to go with 4 - bi-fold doors hanging from a track and worry about making more customized doors at a later time. Like this example.

I'm looking at lead times for metal, so we'll see where that leads me.

But I'm hoping someone here can help me figure what I need to support a rail at the top. It'll be a single rail, 4 pivotal hangers - 1 for each vertical sectional. My gable truss is currently nailed into each post with 4" barn nails. Is there any way that I can avoid notching the posts and figuring out how to slide a board in? Could I just get a hanger and hanger nails for both ends? I'll be fastening the truss to the beam also.

I'm trying to use this calculator to figure the beam size but I don't know how to figure the psf of hanging doors on a rail that is secured to a beam. Let's figure worse case scenario of 200 lbs per hanger if I went with all wood. Is there a calculator that someone can share with me so that I can figure psf? It's been since 2006 since my loads and stats class in college..

If i need a vertical support under a 2x? or sandwich of 2x?s, and a normal joist hanger won't work, could I use a, say, 4" x 4" x 1/4" angle bracket and tie it into the column with bolts and into the beam using bolts?

 

[kbs2244]

I was thinking the top half, sectional door would be full width

 

[treehick]

I was thinking the top half, sectional door would be full width

Yea - that's not a bad idea.

Looks like Menards has a 16 x 10 for $1200+. No opener included at lower prices.

$640 for a 16' x 6.5' garage door.

$1450 for R6.5 16x10 door - no opener.

Getting a quote from midwest garage doors for something.

Haven't given up on the idea of any of my other door plans - but I'm working against the clock as my dad's garage is literally splitting in half and I want to start moving stuff into my barn/garage.

 

[racecougar]

$1450 for R6.5 16x10 door - no opener.

There you go. That is cheap, it will function well, and it'll be done.

 

[treehick]

There you go. That is cheap, it will function well, and it'll be done.

Sorry - maybe I'm just not looking at this right, but $1450 is hardly cheap. If that were cheap, I'd pay twice that and get concrete installed for my floor.

But, I understand the sentiment and that it would be done. I'm just not happy about it.

 

[racecougar]

Sorry - maybe I'm just not looking at this right, but $1450 is hardly cheap. If that were cheap, I'd pay twice that and get concrete installed for my floor.

But, I understand the sentiment and that it would be done. I'm just not happy about it.

That same door is $1939 at Menards over here in MO, and that's beats anyone else's listed price for an insulated 16x10 door around here. That is very inexpensive for what it is.

If you can get a 600 sq. ft. slab poured for $2900, I'd suggest doing so yesterday. That is an insane price.

 

[treehick]

I built the frames a while ago and got the vapor barrier installed but than it took me a long while to get back to it because I couldn't figure out which route I wanted to take.

Went with metal on the lower left door first. Than hung a wood sheet up to see what it would look like. But after doing both I decided to just put the used metal up for now as 2 large doors and later on when other projects are finished and if I feel like it and I've figured out what to do with the transition points, than I might split the uppers from the lowers.