Basement foundation question

[toyotadriver]

I'm planning to build a new house eventually and am putting the plans together. I am leaning toward building a poured foundation for the basement. However, I can see some benefits to a block foundation. I plan to glue 2 inch XPS foam sheets to the inside basement walls and then frame out the basement and finish with drywall. So, block walls would need less prep for finish.

Which would be cheaper?

Benefits and drawbacks to each??

 

[A Crofoot]

Poured walls are much stronger but are higher priced. I worked for a block contractor for a couple of years and if I was building I would do poured walls for sure.

 

[Dustball]

How about ICF's?

 

[toyotadriver]

How about ICF's?

Thought about it but decided that it wasn't for me for a variety of reasons.

 

[BD1]

Whats your location ? Climate ?
I would get a concrete package price with a break down on poured walls. You are gonna have basement slab, garage slab and apron , maybe driveway and sidewalks or patio slab. Mega bucks . Get a price from mason too. Location has a lot to do with pricing .

 

[Red05GT]

We used the ICFs for our home that we built about 15 years ago and couldn't be
happier with the results. We used 7 courses of the 16" x 48" blocks to give us a 9'
finished ceiling heigth in the basement. We used DRYVIT stucco finish for the interior
finish which was available in colors thus eliminating the painting and drywalling. Our
soil type is extreme clay so we backfilled within a foot of final grade with peagravel
and then topsoil. The cost of furring, 2" foam, and drywall will add up. Run the numbers
for all three options and then decide. Prices of each option, material and labor can
vary greatly by regions of the country.

 

[kbs2244]

I would go with whatever is common in your area.
Construction guys go with what works best because call backs cost big bucks.
For sure if it is a foundation.

 

[toyotadriver]

I would go with whatever is common in your area.
Construction guys go with what works best because call backs cost big bucks.
For sure if it is a foundation.

In my area, we have about an equal split of block vs poured. I'll almost certainly go with poured concrete.

 

[K'ledgeBldr]

The long term benefits of a poured wall far out weigh the cost savings of a block wall- which is really the only true advantage of block walls.

 

[wnstwolf]

For a standard rectangle ICF's are not that much more than a traditional formed system. When you start adding a bunch of angles, brick ledge and other non standard items you go off the deep end. My wife and I with some friends put the lego's together in a weekend. One cutting rebar one locking in the ICF blocks and one doing ties.. concrete crew and AHJ blessed it and we are very happy. Wish we could have covered cost of concrete to do the entire house this way..We used the Logix system. very pleased going on year 2!

 

[yucholian]

It all depends on how high your basement walls will be.
For mine, I wanted 9.5' tall walls minimum and that meant the difference in cost was only $2k for the block vs. poured. The higher you go, more reinforcement you need with the blocks, more rebars and more cavities filled with concrete. So there is a point where the cost difference becomes negligible respect to the entire house construction cost. The $2k difference was for the house below, it has a huge basement, around 2000 square feet.

 

[toyotadriver]

Very beautiful house. How much was the basement if you don't mind me asking?

 

[yucholian]

Very beautiful house. How much was the basement if you don't mind me asking?

I couldn't tell you as the base house plan included the basement cost. I only know the upcharge to go to 9.5' versus standard 8', and also to go from blocks to poured. After paying extra to go to 9.5', it was only $2k more for poured vs. blocks. You'd be amazed how much more block cavities need rebars and concrete when you go high. But my basement is also my full woodshop. Handling plywood and lumber is nearly impossible with only 8' ceiling. It actually came out to 10' when all done. I also spec'ed out minimum 10' ceiling in the garage and came out to nearly 11'.

 

[rvr6000]

The long term benefits of a poured wall far out weigh the cost savings of a block wall- which is really the only true advantage of block walls.

What are the advantages to poured over block?

 

[djkeev]

Block vs poured.......

They both crack,
They both allow moisture to pass through
Either one properly constructed will work.

For my money, basements are a waste of money and effort.
The vast majority are moisture pits filled with damp air, prone to floodng, poor living space, poor storage space and iffy work space.

Invest that money in a good garage or an extra story or wing on your structure.

Construct on a well vented and insulated crawl space. Have your mechanicals on the main level in a utility room.
A slab for the home is a bad choice for all the same reasons as slabs are a bad choice in the basement, moisture.

There are a few exceptions but rare. A well built walk out basement on a hillside is a good choice but not one completely buried on all four sides.

I know people who have invested a LOT of money water proofing and finishing a basement.....then rains come, the power goes off, the pump stops and the water rises.

If you must do a basement, don't depend on pumps to evacuate the water, site the home so a daylight drain is possible.

Bottom line, rethink the "free" extra space a basement provides! Spend a little more coin and dwell above ground!

My .02

Dave

 

[yucholian]

Block vs poured.......

They both crack,
They both allow moisture to pass through
Either one properly constructed will work.

For my money, basements are a waste of money and effort.
The vast majority are moisture pits filled with damp air, prone to floodng, poor living space, poor storage space and iffy work space.

Invest that money in a good garage or an extra story or wing on your structure.

Construct on a well vented and insulated crawl space. Have your mechanicals on the main level in a utility room.
A slab for the home is a bad choice for all the same reasons as slabs are a bad choice in the basement, moisture.

There are a few exceptions but rare. A well built walk out basement on a hillside is a good choice but not one completely buried on all four sides.

I know people who have invested a LOT of money water proofing and finishing a basement.....then rains come, the power goes off, the pump stops and the water rises.

If you must do a basement, don't depend on pumps to evacuate the water, site the home so a daylight drain is possible.

Bottom line, rethink the "free" extra space a basement provides! Spend a little more coin and dwell above ground!

My .02

Dave

Disagree 100%. Properly done, basement is a bargain and makes a great work/storage space. Cool in the summer, warm in the winter. You already need a foundation, dig deeper.

 

[trboxman]

Remind me to give you a kick in the jimmy if you ever come back to WA, that shop and garage space almost makes me green with envy...but not the driveway

 

[Pate]

If you plan on insulating and finishing the basement, these guys may be a good option.

http://www.superiorwalls.com/home

Modular construction with insulation and studs already installed. I'm building a house now and it was a 2k option.

 

[ryaninmichigan]

If you plan on insulating and finishing the basement, these guys may be a good option.

http://www.superiorwalls.com/home

Modular construction with insulation and studs already installed. I'm building a house now and it was a 2k option.

+ 1 For this. We have them and love it. 50 year waranty against leaks. That is a way better waranty then the tail light waranty from block and concrete guys. Easy to finish too.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Block vs poured.......

They both crack,
They both allow moisture to pass through
Either one properly constructed will work.

For my money, basements are a waste of money and effort.
The vast majority are moisture pits filled with damp air, prone to floodng, poor living space, poor storage space and iffy work space.

Invest that money in a good garage or an extra story or wing on your structure.

Construct on a well vented and insulated crawl space. Have your mechanicals on the main level in a utility room.
A slab for the home is a bad choice for all the same reasons as slabs are a bad choice in the basement, moisture.

There are a few exceptions but rare. A well built walk out basement on a hillside is a good choice but not one completely buried on all four sides.

I know people who have invested a LOT of money water proofing and finishing a basement.....then rains come, the power goes off, the pump stops and the water rises.

If you must do a basement, don't depend on pumps to evacuate the water, site the home so a daylight drain is possible.

Bottom line, rethink the "free" extra space a basement provides! Spend a little more coin and dwell above ground!

My .02

Dave

I know many that would disagree with you. I've many aflooded basements but very few of the owners would be without their basements.

 

[Red05GT]

Looked at the Superiorwall System a few years ago. As I recall, their system is set on
a bed of gravel and then the water flows in a channel along the edge of the basement
slab to the sump well. Didn't like the look of metal studs if left unfinished. During the
fast track construction period of the late 90's and early 00's, they were pushed for
their time savings. To each their own.

 

[wnstwolf]

One of the downsides we ran into with the ICF's was our need to install drywall prior to Certificate of Occy due to fire issues. This was a hit to the bottom line we did not expect but at some point we were going to do it anyway. Had the sheetrockers upstairs on site and for 42.5k they installed and taped for me. At this stage glad it is done. The day I found this out I was not happy...

 

[djkeev]

Disagree 100%. Properly done, basement is a bargain and makes a great work/storage space. Cool in the summer, warm in the winter. You already need a foundation, dig deeper.

Words spoken by one who hasn't yet had the joy of a wet damp basement and lost the collection of family heirlooms, photos, books, tools, etc stored in the underground vaults of America. Just because people do it and have done it for years doesn't make it the best option available to us. I've seen the driest of the dry basements suddenly become wet in that freak "100 year" storm. Don't count on an electric pump to say you either for these freal storms usually take out the power supply fairly quickly.

I know many that would disagree with you. I've many aflooded basements but very few of the owners would be without their basements.

We are a creature of habit, not always of common sense. The hole in the ground is convienent and large, easy to access. Trouble is that many many many a dumpster has been filled with ruined soggy possessions all too frequently. People continue to build along creeks known to flood and on the Ocean front beach which is known to wash away, why? tradition? beauty? I guess its worth the risk?

Dave

 

[6768rogues]

Either will work well if installed correctly. Mostly it is a regional thing. In our area, blocks are used almost exclusively and are cheaper. About an hour west of here, concrete is used almost exclusively and it is cheaper.

 

[dirttracker18]

Words spoken by one who hasn't yet had the joy of a wet damp basement and lost the collection of family heirlooms, photos, books, tools, etc stored in the underground vaults of America. Just because people do it and have done it for years doesn't make it the best option available to us. I've seen the driest of the dry basements suddenly become wet in that freak "100 year" storm. Don't count on an electric pump to say you either for these freal storms usually take out the power supply fairly quickly.

We just had a hundred year storm in my town (100 mm in 24 hours with 200 mm within a week) and my basement is dry as a bone. Constructed properly, their is no reason to flood.


We are a creature of habit, not always of common sense. The hole in the ground is convienent and large, easy to access. Trouble is that many many many a dumpster has been filled with ruined soggy possessions all too frequently. People continue to build along creeks known to flood and on the Ocean front beach which is known to wash away, why? tradition? beauty? I guess its worth the risk?


I would not be without a basement and 90% of the homes here have them. We have to go below frost for foundations so the extra cost is slight.

 

[djkeev]

Words spoken by one who hasn't yet had the joy of a wet damp basement and lost the collection of family heirlooms, photos, books, tools, etc stored in the underground vaults of America. Just because people do it and have done it for years doesn't make it the best option available to us. I've seen the driest of the dry basements suddenly become wet in that freak "100 year" storm. Don't count on an electric pump to say you either for these freal storms usually take out the power supply fairly quickly.

We just had a hundred year storm in my town (100 mm in 24 hours with 200 mm within a week) and my basement is dry as a bone. Constructed properly, their is no reason to flood.

I knew "you" would chime in saying "my basement is dry as a bone", good for you! Count your blessings for you are indeed blessed but sadly also in the minority. An entire industry exists because of wet basements being so widespread!

Don't get me wrong, I see the appeal of the space, sadly I've also seen way too many problem plagued basements! The key is your term of "constructed properly", in the real world, it is rare that "properly" happens!

As I said, be smart, spend your money to enable you to dwell above ground instead of below grade! You won't regret it.

Dave

 

[Kevin C]

My house is almost 100 years old and the basement is a tiny bit damp. I know current code pretty well and things have progressed a long way in that 100 years.

If you do it right its not a problem.... Doing it right is not that hard.

An entire industry exists because of wet basements being so widespread!

There is entire industries devoted to roofing because they eventually leak. Based on that logic logic should I skip getting a roof?

 

[NUTTSGT]

One of the downsides we ran into with the ICF's was our need to install drywall prior to Certificate of Occy due to fire issues. This was a hit to the bottom line we did not expect but at some point we were going to do it anyway. Had the sheetrockers upstairs on site and for 42.5k they installed and taped for me. At this stage glad it is done. The day I found this out I was not happy...

Is that a typo ? The sheetrockers charged you $42,500 ?

 

[wnstwolf]

sorry the 4 was supposed to be the $ fat fingers 2.5k over 1800 sq ft basement

 

[Sureshot]

sorry the 4 was supposed to be the $ fat fingers 2.5k over 1800 sq ft basement

I was thinking that must be some smokin hot drywall job with ALOT of trayed ceilings and whatever else the "other" people have that that I cannot even imagine.

 

[Engineered]

If the block wall is grouted properly there is not much difference in strength between the two options. My father is a mason so for me it is going to be block no question.

You should know that things made from concrete or cement tend to have fantastic compressive strength. However, the same material typically has only one-tenth the strength when you apply a tension or stretching force to it. Bending a poured concrete or concrete block wall creates tension. Backfilled soil against a wall produces tension as the soil pushes against the wall. Poor quality soil creates tension on a foundation as more and more weight is added to the foundation as the house is built.

You need to strengthen both poured concrete and concrete block walls by including reinforcing steel. Often you will see horizontal steel bars placed in the lower and upper sections of poured foundation walls. This steel often has a tensile strength of 40,000 pounds per square inch. This horizontal steel helps prevent vertical cracks should the foundation drop or heave. Horizontal wire fabric can also be placed in the mortar joints between layers of concrete block to achieve the same result in a concrete block wall.

Vertical reinforcing steel is also very important. This steel can be put in both a poured concrete foundation and a concrete block wall that will have the hollow voids filled with cement grout or pea gravel concrete. The reinforcing steel should be one-half inch in diameter and these rods should be connected to the poured concrete footer that the foundation rests upon. This steel should be placed every two feet on center.

Furthermore, neither wall system will be waterproof because concrete products are more porous than swiss cheese. If you want a dry basement you must apply a foundation waterproofing system to the exterior of the foundation walls after they are built. In addition, a drain piping system needs to be at the base of the wall adjacent to the footer. This pipe is covered with two or three feet of washed gravel. The gravel is then covered with six inches of straw or a sheet of tar paper before dirt is placed over it. The straw and tar paper prevent silt from the fluffed up backfill dirt from clogging the gravel. The water that flows through the soil and makes it to the pipe is then drained to daylight if the house is built on a sloping lot. If the house is built on a level lot, the drain pipe often empties into a sump pit.

Hope this helps!