Battery terminals: Crimp vs Solder

[Beemer533]

Granted, I don't use these on vehicles, but for work done on jobs with the FAA, we are required to crimp all of our ground cables (even down to 6awg) with a 12 ton concentric crimper..

I recent bought this cordless model:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0047O35RU/?tag=atomicindus08-20

With this type of die:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00125ITSC/?tag=atomicindus08-20

There are obviously quite a few different models depending on what you need that range in price.

We used to use a manual type crimper, but this one is so much easier and very consistent..

 

[AV tinker er]

The best tool for crimping... It's not overkill. You'll thank me later. You will need shop air for this thing though.

https://www.astrotool.com/catalog/heavy_duty_pneumatic.html

 

[Wakefield]

If a connection is crimped is there a substance that can be applied that will make it gas and liquid tight?= corrosion resistant? Would Green Loctite ruin a crimp joint?

 

[ez-duzit]

 

[gungatim]

I use the Harbor freight hydraulic crimper. Does a nice job. Heat shrink everything to finish up the connections.

I modified my crimper so it will easily clamp to the welding bench. Frees up a hand for holding the wire in place.
I marked out a pattern for a couple of drilled and tapped holes in the head.
....
I clamped the tool in the drill press vise and drilled two holes out to .149 for tapping for a #10-32 screw.

That is an awesome idea, thanks for sharing, will be doing this mod tonight!!

(edited quote for space)

 

[Bigplum]

Crimping good ,solder bad

We used to do solder and crimp repair on instrument wiring looms , thinking it was right ,
Soon fell foul of the aviation Gods

 

[justme-]

I'm not familiar with aerospace specs, but the mil spec I was working with has/had vibration components including frequency and duration (cycles). That's part of the spec for what termination a wire gets in an application, not the actual procedure for terminating. The engineer designing the device has to choose the termination factoring in the environment the device will see.

You all seem to forget if soldering was strictly a no go for wire over a certain gauge there would be no soldering irons over 60 watts, yet Stanley has made electric irons up to 600 watts for over 50 years.
I've seen more terminations fail from improper crimping and failure to "seal" a connection than poor soldering or solder weakening a wire in any situation, automotive, marine, medical.
Last battery terminal I soldered is 5 years and going strong.

 

[Quickster]

Don't solder battery cables...

This 30k watt system says other wise. Probably have 50 plus 1/0 gauge lugs and all soldered.

If anyone wants to claim vibration etc will make solder fail here is proof you are wrong. This guys solders everything.

 

[ez-duzit]

...If anyone wants to claim vibration etc will make solder fail here is proof you are wrong....

Just laughing.

 

[Quickster]

Lol I'm just saying. Most people complain about vibrations when it comes to solder and that it wont survive.

That guy built that car like 7 years ago. Solders everything, obviously it works out considering he still does it on other builds.

 

[Ruger_556]

Lol I'm just saying. Most people complain about vibrations when it comes to solder and that it wont survive.

That guy built that car like 7 years ago. Solders everything, obviously it works out considering he still does it on other builds.

It's on Youtube so it must be true right? LOL

 

[APEowner]

What it boils down to is this; Every standards group recommends crimped wire termination in applications where there's vibration but in pretty much every application you can probably get away with a properly done solder joint.

 

[hangfirew8]

I've gotten by with this EZ-Red hammer crimper... I don't use a hammer, I close it in a vise for better control and less wear and tear on the tool.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000M7LFKK/?tag=atomicindus08-20

I bought it so long ago mine is Red.

 

[Fcvapor05]

Lol I'm just saying. Most people complain about vibrations when it comes to solder and that it wont survive.

That guy built that car like 7 years ago. Solders everything, obviously it works out considering he still does it on other builds.

Statistical fallacy:

[stuh-tis-ti-kuh l] [fal-uh-see]

Noun, plural 'statistical fallacies'

1) Applying one example of any scenario as proof of law without sufficient data

Example:

'That guy does it and it works for him, so it must be the best way to do it' is a common statistical fallacy.

 

[rlitman]

What it boils down to is this; Every standards group recommends crimped wire termination in applications where there's vibration but in pretty much every application you can probably get away with a properly done solder joint.

The issue with soldering and vibration is only at fixtured wire terminations.
i.e. where you solder on a ring terminal and bolt that terminal down. Now, any flex in the wire is concentrated at the solder joint.

The same does not happen in a mid-wire splice. In such situations, soldering is just fine.

 

[knobby]

If a connection is crimped is there a substance that can be applied that will make it gas and liquid tight?= corrosion resistant? Would Green Loctite ruin a crimp joint?

Dielectric grease

 

[knobby]

Statistical fallacy:

[stuh-tis-ti-kuh l] [fal-uh-see]

Noun, plural 'statistical fallacies'

1) Applying one example of any scenario as proof of law without sufficient data

Example:

'That guy does it and it works for him, so it must be the best way to do it' is a common statistical fallacy.

I will take anecdotal evidence for $500 Alex.....

 

[rlitman]

If a connection is crimped is there a substance that can be applied that will make it gas and liquid tight?= corrosion resistant? Would Green Loctite ruin a crimp joint?

A properly crimped connection IS gas and liquid tight. The crimp (if done right) causes the metal to flow together leaving no gap that oxygen can enter.

One issue though is that the span of wire between the crimp and the insulation is unprotected. Since a crimp is usually used on wires with fine strands, these individual strands OUTSIDE of the actual crimp are exposed to corrosion, and fine wires having a greater surface area than coarse wires, are more susceptible to corrosion issues.

The right answer to this is to use a marine grade (adhesive lined) heat shrink that seals the gap between the crimp and the insulation. In more forgiving environments, you can just spray the wires with WD-40 (one of it's best uses is to displace water), or DeOxit (expensive option that can potentially repair minor corrosion damage after the fact). Dielectric grease would probably work too, but I would not apply anything before crimping, and only a wicking liquid would work its way between the wires after crimping (a grease does not flow like this).

Green loctite would indeed be a bad choice, as it would fix the wires to each other in much the same way as solder would.

 

[APEowner]

The issue with soldering and vibration is only at fixtured wire terminations.
i.e. where you solder on a ring terminal and bolt that terminal down. Now, any flex in the wire is concentrated at the solder joint.

The same does not happen in a mid-wire splice. In such situations, soldering is just fine.

I agree. Part of a "properly done solder joint" is ensuring that the flex doesn't occur at the joint either by letting the wire flex on both sides, as in a mid-wire splice or securing the wire with a cable clamp or by some other means so that the joint can't flex.

As I said in my earlier post I prefer the speed and simplicity of a crimp joint when I have the appropriate terminal and crimper but I've done tons of soldered connections over the years as well. They're both effective when done properly.

 

[Quickster]

It's on Youtube so it must be true right? LOL

What?

Guy owns his own website/forum. He has multiple build logs dating back to like 2006 with thousands of pics you can check it out yourself. Not sure if thats what you meant by me saying he built the car over 7 years ago.. Not only that, plenty of other people on his car audio forum solder their battery lugs from the Alt, to Starter,Battery,Amps etc. Hell, there are plenty of people on multiple other car audio forums that solder their lugs. These people do competitions and even daily drive some of these vehicles. I have yet to see a thread or a topic discussion on "hey my soldered battery lug failed"

Solder or Crimp. Just like many other things, if done correctly it will last.

FWIW, I'm not a crimp hater as I do both solder/crimp.

I know some of you on here despise solder. But I will take a solder battery lug before I take a lug that was so called crimped by your bench vice or smashed with your hammer. Buy the correct crimp tool or just solder the damn thing.


-EDIT

 

[AA/FC]

These are the factory battery cables on my 2013 Dodge 5500 work truck..... they are crimped AND soldered.

 

[Quickster]

Statistical fallacy:

[stuh-tis-ti-kuh l] [fal-uh-see]

Noun, plural 'statistical fallacies'

1) Applying one example of any scenario as proof of law without sufficient data

Example:

'That guy does it and it works for him, so it must be the best way to do it' is a common statistical fallacy.

You sir are so cool. You know how to google and copy+paste.

I never implied it was the best way to do it did I? I simply brought it up that it has been done and that it can last. I only used him as an example based on the documented proof through his youtube channel videos of his car audio Demos/online video build logs/and his own forum with his own posts with plenty of pics date back since 2006.

However one guy comes in here and states "dont solder battery cables" yet provides nothing supporting his claim.

 

[Quickster]

These are the factory battery cables on my 2013 Dodge 5500 work truck..... they are crimped AND soldered.

Quick delete that post, solder is EVIL!

 

[Fcvapor05]

You sir are so cool. You know how to google and copy+paste.

I never implied it was the best way to do it did I? I simply brought it up that it has been done and that it can last. I only used him as an example based on the documented proof through his youtube channel videos of his car audio Demos/online video build logs/and his own forum with his own posts with plenty of pics date back since 2006.

However one guy comes in here and states "dont solder battery cables" yet provides nothing supporting his claim.

Error 404: joke not detected

 

[Quickster]

Error 404: joke not detected

Probably because there was no joke...Dullard.

 

[Fcvapor05]

Probably because there was no joke...Dullard.

There's definitely a joke in there somewhere. Stare at it reallllll hard for a while.

If you want to make a final decision the next time you make a battery cable, I'd suggest asking an F1 engineer, or a harness builder at Boeing, or a compliance officer who works in military procurement, or just about anyone who cares about quality over cost. They'll tell you one thing- they crimp their connections.

The military and aerospace industries switched to crimping everything a long, long time ago for one simple reason- it is much easier to control the quality of a crimped connection than it is to control the quality of a soldered one. Soldering also has a negative effect on vibration tolerance and can affect electrical properties if done incorrectly. It also weighs more, costs more on a large scale, etc etc etc.

I'm quite sure the reason captain loudsubs uses soldered connections everywhere is that he doesn't want to spend the sum necessary to buy a quality crimper and dies for wire that large. They are expensive. If he was a forward thinker, he would have bought one a long time ago, and he likely would have made his money back by not buying solder for 7 years. But that's neither here nor there.

 

[Quickster]

Typed up a bunch of stuff but deleted it as I feel I'm beating a dead horse now.

But far as the guy in the video, I have no idea on his financial situation. But I'm sure he has no problem forking over $$ to buy another tool. Especially considering he has a 4500sqft shop he rents from the next door body shop that he just "plays" in with his hobbies.

He is local to me and I believe he owns or runs a commercial roofing company or something along those lines, buying a hydraulic battery lug crimp tool probably wouldn't hurt his pockets.

 

[ez-duzit]

He should stick to roofing.

 

[Quickster]

He's been building car audio systems or anything audio related for probably close to 20 years. I think he's doing something right.

 

[Ruger_556]

Car audio is different than starting/charging guys... The goal isn't clean bass when you're trying to start your car. I'm really confused by so many arguing for solder. Why on earth would you want to? It's a pain in the **** that takes forever and you have to do it just right. Crimp is fast, easy, and just as good if not better.

 

[Fcvapor05]

Car audio is different than starting/charging guys... The goal isn't clean bass when you're trying to start your car. I'm really confused by so many arguing for solder. Why on earth would you want to? It's a pain in the **** that takes forever and you have to do it just right. Crimp is fast, easy, and just as good if not better.

I don't think 'clean bass' is what that guy is after either. I haven't watched a lick of this dude's videos, but it's also possible that he solders terminals because someone told him it was better 20 years ago, or 20 years ago it was the only way he was familiar with, and he never decided he needed to learn a different process. A LOT of people do a lot of things incorrectly because they were taught that way or they think they know best, with no ill effects.

The whole point of a properly made crimp joint is that you get the same electrical properties as a continuous piece of wire, a gas tight joint, and no alteration of the mechanical properties of the wire loom. Soldering only accomplishes one of those tasks, and in that case only if it's well done which it rarely is.

Ultimately, if you want to solder battery terminals, have at it. Is your ride going to go down hard in a fireball? doubtful.

This has to be the most words I've ever typed in response to someone not understanding a joke on a forum. Oh well.

 

[Quickster]

Guys I'm not arguing for it. I will crimp anything 12ga and up before I solder however I would have no doubts in my ability to solder it properly. I will however solder a splice in 22ga-14ga range before i used a **** crimp usually. Or I will replace the entire length of wire and crimp the correct terminals end to end.

I'm just simply stating it can be done. And Ruger, everything from starter, alt (or multiples to keep the extra batteries charged), battery (or batteries in most car audio setups since there's usually more than one) and it's works just fine. The entire vehicles charging system is all soldered terminal.

I'm not biased againts either methods.

 

[Fcvapor05]

He's been building car audio systems or anything audio related for probably close to 20 years. I think he's doing something right.

Since you have no idea of his financial situation, how do you know what he's doing right and what he isn't? I've been doing a lot of **** for 20 years, does't mean I'm good at all of it.

 

[Quickster]

Since you have no idea of his financial situation, how do you know what he's doing right and what he isn't? I've been doing a lot of **** for 20 years, does't mean I'm good at all of it.

Probably because he said he has, and also the pics of him and his competition trophies from around the 80's and early 90's that he has posted on his website.

Anything else?

 

[Fcvapor05]

Probably because he said he has, and also the pics of him and his competition trophies from around the 80's and early 90's that he has posted on his website.

Anything else?

You need to work on reading comprehension dude

 

[Quickster]

I don't think 'clean bass' is what that guy is after either. I haven't watched a lick of this dude's videos, but it's also possible that he solders terminals because someone told him it was better 20 years ago, or 20 years ago it was the only way he was familiar with, and he never decided he needed to learn a different process. A LOT of people do a lot of things incorrectly because they were taught that way or they think they know best, with no ill effects.

The whole point of a properly made crimp joint is that you get the same electrical properties as a continuous piece of wire, a gas tight joint, and no alteration of the mechanical properties of the wire loom. Soldering only accomplishes one of those tasks, and in that case only if it's well done which it rarely is.

Ultimately, if you want to solder battery terminals, have at it. Is your ride going to go down hard in a fireball? doubtful.

This has to be the most words I've ever typed in response to someone not understanding a joke on a forum. Oh well.

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item...scplp3795495&gclid=CKewg4GSl8ACFQw0aQodinMArA

A tool of his, well used by Car audio enthusiast and plenty car shops. Im sure is bass is plenty clean.

Again hes been doing this for a while, Im sure he knows what he is doing.

 

[Fcvapor05]

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item...scplp3795495&gclid=CKewg4GSl8ACFQw0aQodinMArA

A tool of his, well used by Car audio enthusiast and plenty car shops. Im sure is bass is plenty clean.

Again hes been doing this for a while, Im sure he knows what he is doing.

What are you even talking about at this point?

 

[Quickster]

He's been building car audio systems or anything audio related for probably close to 20 years. I think he's doing something right.

Since you have no idea of his financial situation, how do you know what he's doing right and what he isn't? I've been doing a lot of **** for 20 years, does't mean I'm good at all of it.

Probably because he said he has, and also the pics of him and his competition trophies from around the 80's and early 90's that he has posted on his website.
Anything else?

You need to work on reading comprehension dude

You are correct. I apologize, my multitasking skills are lacking as I half assed read your response completely (trying to repair blue screen windows7 error on my other laptop) As to your question I bolded I have no clue about everything he does, he does correct. But what I originally meant by how long he has been doing this is basically well........... experience. 20 years is a lot of time for trial and error. Im sure he probably has tried many methods yet here in 2014 he is still soldering.

Solder is good enough for him it seems because he still has not jumped ship from solder to full-on crimp everything like most people. He may or may not have had issues with soldered lugs in the past, who knows. But he is still soldering away, so again whatever he does he must be doing it right(solder wise) or Im sure he would be crimping lugs by now rather than still soldering. Or he could just be stubborn like most people here, and fully believe in solder like most here fully believe in crimping.

There are plenty of people soldering lugs but reason being I even brought up his vehicle/video specifically in the first place is that I have watched the progress pics from 2006/2007 of his build online There is proof dated back to then that anyone can see. Though he has upgraded some of the equipment since in his updates, he soldered every lug from all four of his Alternators, to starter, to his like 4 to 6 batteries he has in the car.

Most of his electrical setup is still the same, 7 years later its still going. So over the years it has seemed to have last pretty good through the abuse of his system and normal vehicle vibrations.

Again not stating its better, just that it has and can be done and based on his ride it holds up pretty good considering the age of most of his power wire ran.

My personal number 1 option is to get a hydrualic crimp tool, if not get the big lug crimp tool (one that looks like bolt cutters), 3rd would probably be the hammer crimp tool but dont hammer it, use it in a shop press.

Last would be to solder the lugs.

 

[ez-duzit]

...he is still soldering away, so again whatever he does he must be doing it right(solder wise) or Im sure he would be crimping lugs by now rather than still soldering...

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