Be careful comparing minisplit specs…

[pcmeiners]

What an industry ! Few follow a standard method of testing performance.

Was checking out Gree Sapphire minisplits, supposedly at 38 SEER vs Fujitsu at 33 SEER, both 9000BTU units. Went to Northeast Energy Efficiency Partnerships at https://ashp.neep.org to look up AHRI certificate info to compare the 2 units.

Fujitsu high efficiency, low temp unit 33 SEER….

https://ashp.neep.org/#!/product/30807/7/25000///0

Gree , high efficacy , low temp unit, supposedly 38 SEER…

ASHP

ashp.neep.org

How did Gree come up with this high SEER number? Even with the info supplied by the certificates, due to the non standards in testing of published results it is not possible to come up with a conclusion of which unit is better, only a guess. There should be a standard method and standard variables to go by. The government produces tax incentives/ rebates but gives them out following unsupported information supplied by manufacturers... makes a lot of sense.
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[Jackfre]

You are correct. I was the Fujitsu rep in New England from ’97-‘11. Ratings on the single speed on/off units is a simple process. When you get into the inverter units all hell breaks loose. Initially in I think it was ‘06 the industry introduced the inverter units. there is no question that the performance was light years ahead the older equipment and they delivered excellent comfort. I was at the AHR Show tHat first year speaking with one of the Japanese engineers about the efficiencies. Upon questioning him on the numbers he said that the actually seer rating of the 24 unit was actually in the high 30’s but be cause there was no testing method they run the unit on low and then on high and calc from there. All the mid ranges where the equipment spends most of its time were ignored. I had the same issue back in early ‘91 when we introduced the modulating Rinnai DV wall furnaces. We rec’d an afue based upon a single speed test. All the benefit of the technology in the unit was of absolutely no importance and it being Japanese rather than US built there was little incentive to develop a test method.
I’m in the early stages of looking into replacing my gas furnace with one of the Fujitsu units connected to their multi position air handler. I downloaded their catalog and the amount of data available is extensive. Confusing too

 

[American Locomotive]

I had always suspected the Chinese brands had developed a way to "game" the SEER rating. It never made any sense to me that the 33 SEER Mitsubishi M-Series I helped install for my friend had an EER of 19.05, while another friend's 38 SEER Gree unit had a much lower EER.

I'm not exactly sure where the discrepancy is, but it appears the Gree has an extreme outlier cooling COP value: 8.79 @ minimum capacity at 95°F. I suspect somehow they're gaming their testing so it falls within the rules, but that one value is heavily weighting their score. Notice how much lower the SEER2 rating is? It goes from 38 SEER1 to 27 SEER2.

On the other hand, the Mitsubishi M-Series I mentioned earlier goes from 33 SEER1, to 32.2 SEER2. Hardly any different.

You can see that the mitsubishi is dramatically more efficient at mid-high loads, while the Gree unit seems like they focused on squeezing as much as they could out of the minimum load.

ASHP

ashp.neep.org

 

[fitter30]

Didn't spend a lot of time digging into this but these specs seem detailed for vrf equipment.

Federal Register :: Request Access

 

[pcmeiners]

Main issue is there is no standard that is follows by everyone. Seems testing is done to some standards but the manufacturers pick and choose the data from from beneficial points, such different temperatures, KWs usage, fan speeds or different measurement proceedures, which point out the highest rating ( for EER2,SEER2, HSPF2) or they report in EER, SEER, HSPF instead of EER2, SEER2, HSPF2, as they are suppose to as of Jan 1, this year. The Federal overseers turn the the the other way as not to disturb the manufacturers profits, then report the slanted data on the the Energy Star website as if it is honest information.

I just pulled up the ARHI information sheets on the Gree and Fujitsu high efficiency units. if the data is correct, there is no data which can support Gree's claim of 38 SEER vs Fujitsu at 33, Gree is only slightly better at 95° for cooling, Fujitsu is better at all other cooling temperatures and heating temps, according to the data Fujitsu crushes Gree, especially at low outside tempertures. Gree at 5° has a pathetic COP of .28 vs Fujitsu @ COP 2.93, at-6° Gree supplied no data, Fujitsu has a COP of 2.39. Now I would love to know how Gree can brag about there Sapphire high efficiency unit.

As a note, Mitsubishi is touted at have top efficiency, many dealer sites though out a lot of untruths about Mitsubishi. If you compare Fujitsu vs Mitsubishi. Fujitsu take them in all numbers, with higher BTU output ( on the high efficiency units). Big factor for Mitsubishi is a high number of dealers and service people, but not the prices.

Lastly the manufacturers should have better warranties, we pay for the units but the warranties are there to benefit themselves, the dealer and service personal, not the buyers


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[justinjoyal]

Now I would love to know how Gree can brag about there Sapphire high efficiency unit.

As a note, Mitsubishi is touted at have top efficiency, many dealer sites though out a lot of untruths about Mitsubishi. If you compare Fujitsu vs Mitsubishi. Fujitsu take them in all numbers, with higher BTU output ( on the high efficiency units). Big factor for Mitsubishi is a high number of dealers and service people, but not the prices.

Lastly the manufacturers should have better warranties, we pay for the units but the warranties are there to benefit themselves, the dealer and service personal, not the buyers


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I've been selling Gree mini-splits and central systems for 10 years now.

The Sapphire model (which is called Extreme here in Quebec) is great, honestly. I'll put it up against any Fujitsu or Mitsubishi top of the line model anytime. It's right up there with them. The difference is it's a good deal cheaper, at least around here, and that's a good selling point.

Also the warranty offered by Gree Canada is nothing to be ashamed of : 10 years parts and labor.

However, AHRI ratings seem to have discrepancies and not just when it comes to Gree. You look at numbers sometimes and they don't seem to make any sense.

 

[pcmeiners]

Gree

Not sure if the US warranty does cover labor, pulled up one document, stated it covered labor but then .....

https://www.greecomfort.com/assets/documents/warranty/gree-limited-warranty-statements/limited-warranty-for-units-installed-prior-to-1-1-2019.pdf

"THIS LIMITED WARRANTY DOES NOT COVER:
1. Labor or other costs incurred for diagnosing, repairing, removing, installing, shipping, servicing
or handling of either defective parts, or replacement parts, or new units."


"However, AHRI ratings seem to have discrepancies and not just when it comes to Gree. You look at numbers sometimes and they don't seem to make any sense."

The entire industry has "numbers" which do not make sense.

I wish the manufactures had extended warranties to cover everything for a price, personally I would pay $5-700 to get a no hassle 10 year parts and labor agreement.

Home Depot sell Gree, definitely cheaper than Fujitsu.

Now Midea states they have a 40 (42) SEER 9000 BTU unit (Carrier use Midea for the "highest " Seer unit out there). Check out the Midea AHRI certificate, NO data at all to backup the claim.....

https://d11fdyfhxcs9cr.cloudfront.net/templates/32505/myimages/9%20ahricertificate%20(3)_1675179642246.pdf

Emailed AHRI asking why the certifications allow no data entries and why certification data is never challenged ( they challenged (1) companies certificate data), they sent a boiler plate response that the request was closed (with no answers), basically they support the industry, not the public. Another avenue of honesty in the industry closed...wonder if AHRI is related to JD Powers .


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