be careful guys

[mrb]

just a reminder to be careful when working around electricity. i just about killed myself today. unscrewed two pieces of flex that were coupled together. the circuit in it was off. as soon as it disconnected (with me holding one end in each hand) it arced and i was getting electricuted. i was locked onto it, fortunately it was over my head and i sort of fell down and pulled off of the conduits. after shutting the main off and doing some investigating i found where a wire was nicked where it came out of a fitting and into a box. The flex i took apart ended up being the path for the fault current. No EGC was installed and all of the connections in this 30 or 40 year old flex had such high resistance the breaker didnt trip from the fault. I felt it go through my chest and my left arm was killing me for hours but i seem to be ok now.

 

[MrMark]

Holy ****! Sorry to hear about this. I sincerely hope you are OK. Flex is such **** and some electricians would use it for a ground when they could get away with it. You just paid the price for that. The only thing to do to protect yourself is to wave one of those non-contact testers around the metal conduit even if you know the circuit inside is off.

How long were you hooked up? What did it feel like?

Did you go to the ER?

 

[mrb]

Holy ****! Sorry to hear about this. I sincerely hope you are OK. Flex is such **** and some electricians would use it for a ground when they could get away with it. You just paid the price for that. The only thing to do to protect yourself is to wave one of those non-contact testers around the metal conduit even if you know the circuit inside is off.

How long were you hooked up? What did it feel like?

Did you go to the ER?

i did run a non-contact tester (tick tracer) over it, but the conduit was at 0 volts until i broke it open (same as a tick tracer doesnt light up on the neutral) so there was no way to tell there was a problem until it was too late. hooked up for just a split second. was going to go to the er but i felt ok after a little while so i didnt. could have been alot worse, but was a harsh reminder that you can never be too careful because you never know what kind of hidden demons there are in whatever you are working on.

 

[MrMark]

Yeah, I was thinking about that. That conduit was grounded so it wouldn't show up on the tracer. What a mess. You are lucky to be alive going through your chest like that. Kind of scary to think that you could be totally careful and knowledgeable and still get zapped. I don't know if you have a wife or whatever but you should not be alone overnight with that shocking. You need to at least be monitored IMO.

 

[MrMark]

How about putting your clamp on ammeter over any flex you go near? Kind of excessive, but maybe now it might be your modus operandi.

 

[MrMark]

Did you have a tremendous involuntary muscle spasm in that left arm? That is probably what is killing you. You probably have some small muscle tears from that involuntary jerk. It may hurt for a couple days and then you'll be fine. Muscle heals fast.

 

[Silverback51]

First off, glad to hear you are now okay.

For me, if it requires more that just plugging it in, I call an electrican and have them do it.

 

[z28toz06]

Not seeking medical attention after Electrocution is not a good thing. Like a microwave oven, you can do damage (yes cook) your internal organs, doing damage that might not show up for several hours or days.

Remember there is enough amperage in 1 AA battery to interrupt the impulse from the sinoatrial node that tells your heart to beat. If that flow is interrupted it can put you in affib and you won't know it until you feel a little dizzy, and go "sit down for a minute". That's usually where they find you.

Always make sure you are around other people as soon as that happens. That may be the only thing that keeps you alive.

We use these at work: http://www.arrisistore.com/product.php?pid=718844. Even though we work in the low voltage field, you would be amazed at how often we run in to high voltage when we are working on things that "shouldn't" have any.

 

[Ford12508]

As Z28 said, electricity cooks you from the inside out, so you should definitely go to the doctor. Ever seen an electric burn? I dont mean some wimpy little mark on the skin, I mean a gaping wound. If you look at an electrical burn, you will notice that the inside of the wound is actually toasted.

This link is a not so bad burn on the bottom of someone's foot. by not so bad, I mean its not gruesome to look at.
http://files.forensicmed.webnode.com/200000113-6eb5a6faf6/electrical_burn_to_foot.JPG

See how the inside of the wound is all blackened...it was cooked pretty much

 

[mraredneck]

Mrb: If your system is an old one, or a new one with short-cuts the probable cause for your shock was the neutral. I’m an old electrician so I have seen both. In a single phase- 2 120V feeds or a 3 phase 3 120V feeds the newt. can be shared. In turn if you shut the circuit off your working on, your circuit tester will show the circuit off. (This does not mean it is safe). Your heart can be stoped with less then a ¼ amp. The newt. has load if it’s carrying more then 1 circuit. It can be tricky, my best advise is find an electrician!! You are welcome to E-mail me with any questions. [email protected]

 

[mrb]

Mrb: If your system is an old one, or a new one with short-cuts the probable cause for your shock was the neutral. I’m an old electrician so I have seen both. In a single phase- 2 120V feeds or a 3 phase 3 120V feeds the newt. can be shared. In turn if you shut the circuit off your working on, your circuit tester will show the circuit off. (This does not mean it is safe). Your heart can be stoped with less then a ¼ amp. The newt. has load if it’s carrying more then 1 circuit. It can be tricky, my best advise is find an electrician!! You are welcome to E-mail me with any questions. [email protected]

thanks. in this case, it was not the neutral and there was no MWBC involved. There was a high resistance fault in another box and the fault current happened to be flowing through the conduit I broke apart (this conduit had no energized conductors in it). I found the fault and kept the piece of #12 TW that had a nick in the insulation where the wire exited the fitting in the box. I am more than qualified to be doing the work I was performing, I posted this as a warning about hidden undetectable dangers. The only thing that would have alerted anyone to this danger was Mr. Mark's suggestion of putting a clamp on ammeter around the flex.

 

[mrb]

as far as medical attention, there is no burn whatsoever, it didnt knock me out or to the ground, i wasnt confused, or disoriented. I remember the whole thing, no lapse of memory or blackout. I had someone check my pulse to make sure my heartbeat was not irregular and it was fine. Medical attention was not necessary.

 

[Junkman]

.........was going to go to the er but i felt ok after a little while so i didnt. could have been alot worse, but was a harsh reminder that you can never be too careful because you never know what kind of hidden demons there are in whatever you are working on.

as far as medical attention, there is no burn whatsoever, it didnt knock me out or to the ground, i wasnt confused, or disoriented. I remember the whole thing, no lapse of memory or blackout. I had someone check my pulse to make sure my heartbeat was not irregular and it was fine. Medical attention was not necessary.

Not going to the ER is a big mistake, because the electrical shock can do damage that you will not be aware of by taking a pulse. Only an EKG can accurately measure the heart, and the shock can have long lasting effects on your health in the future. It can even lead to a heart attack a few weeks later. I suggest that you go to your family physician and have a complete check up, including an EKG. Better to be safe than dead... You are telling us to be careful with electricity, and as a retired medic, I am telling you to be careful with your health. Your choice how you want to proceed...

 

[lil_TXRanch]

Not going to the ER is a big mistake, because the electrical shock can do damage that you will not be aware of by taking a pulse. Only an EKG can accurately measure the heart, and the shock can have long lasting effects on your health in the future. It can even lead to a heart attack a few weeks later. I suggest that you go to your family physician and have a complete check up, including an EKG. Better to be safe than dead... You are telling us to be careful with electricity, and as a retired medic, I am telling you to be careful with your health. Your choice how you want to proceed...

Mr. B, Junkman, et al...

As a current medic, I'm asking why would he need an EKG....

If your heart was going to be affected by an electrical shock, it would occur at the time of shock, not later on. An EKG would show you nothing that you couldn't tell without it (i.e. if he was in an unstable or dangerous heart rhythm, such as Atrial Fibrillation as z28toz06 suggusted or V-Tach or Ventrical fibrillation, he would not have made it 9+ hours without signs and/or symptoms).

Also, a family physician does not have the tools to asses such a condition and a heart attack weeks later is physiologically not a concern or something that can be assessed now anyway.

I will say this though, I agree about electricity cooking you from the inside out, however, an ER visit at this time would not reveal any of the concerns mentioned. HOWEVER, keep in mind that over time (the next few days-week) if organs were damaged, they will slowly start to become infected and eventually sepsis will set in. I would suggust that over the next couple weeks, if you have anything less than 100% healthy days you go in and see an ER physician.

The blanket statement is always to go in and get checked out, but in all actuality, if you've gone 9+ hours without symptoms ur heart is alright, and the ER would not be able to find damaged organs because they haven't had time to become infected (Bc if they were "cooked" on contact, you wouldn't have been around to write thie thread).

Just an assessment from what was presented.

 

[MrMark]

Nice advice there, lil Ranch. BTW, for those who don't know, MRB I'm sure is at least a commercial electrician or maybe more than that. He is VERY knowledgeable and VERY careful. He may be cheap when it comes to his tools, but he has educated many on this board, including me.

 

[rockwithjason]

mrb is a very knowledgeable person on commercial electrical systems. something like this proves that lady electric is a harsh mistress and must be respected at all times. this could have happened to anyone in the trade. i am glad to hear that you are ok mrb.

 

[kursplat]

ALWAYS WEAR YOUR PPE!
even an old pair of leather gloves probably would have kept you safe, but a cleanish pair and some type of safty glasses will save you 99% of the time.

i've seen too much **** blow up, i'll even wear low voltage rubber gloves changing a light switch now
glad your ok

edit: i got hung up once on a weatherhead and ad to jump/ fall off the ladder to get loose. hurt like hell for a couple days

 

[mrb]

He may be cheap when it comes to his tools.

jesus...that again?

I own (and highly recommend to anyone who doesnt rely on it every day) a harbor freight SDS rotary hammer. It works great, i have beat the **** out of it and it still works fine. I only use it once every couple months, so it is the perfect tool for me because of the little use it sees. If I used it every day, i would get a hilti or bosch or something. MrMark doesnt agree...

 

[hillbilly1]

i did run a non-contact tester (tick tracer) over it.........

OSHA does not recognize those for checking for voltage before working on something, but a voltmeter would not have helped either, because you were not expecting it because you had the circuit(s) inside the flex off.

Not seeking medical attention after Electrocution is not a good thing..........

It's a little too late for medical attention after an electrocution because you are already dead. (the proper term is shocked)

mrb is a very knowledgeable person on commercial electrical systems. something like this proves that lady electric is a harsh mistress and must be respected at all times. this could have happened to anyone in the trade. i am glad to hear that you are ok mrb.

I'm glad that he is OK too, but unexpected events can get the best of us!

 

[rabidsquirrel]

Mr. B, Junkman, et al...

As a current medic, I'm asking why would he need an EKG....

If your heart was going to be affected by an electrical shock, it would occur at the time of shock, not later on.

Partially correct. The problem with getting hit through the heart, or so we've been taught, comes at night time when you're sleeping and your heart rate slows down.

Several people in our local have been hit through the heart and walked away from it. They ended up dying that night.

 

[Busted_Knuckles]

Mrb, sorry to hear of your accident, glad you are still with us, thanks for taking the time to post this.

I'm no electrician, but was employed in the capacity of for a couple years, (machine controls) and have done a fair amount of side work (commercial). I have wired 6vdc to 480v. Its been years since Ive shocked myself, anyhow, my question to those in the "know", what PPE or gloves can help avert an accident? In other words, I'm asking if a specific glove material makes for a decent insulator when doing electrical repair with flex/pipe/panel work. I wear gloves now, I call them electricians gloves, but randomly dont know what material they are made of, or what insulation properties they might have.

I'm currently completely re-wiring a house and 9 outbuildings (farm), mostly consisting of flex, and allot of is rigged. This post is a nice reminder for me...

 

[kursplat]

glove selection different class gloves for different voltages. i've watched guys glove 34.5kv, that just creeps me out.
if the house and out buildings are just 240v you would probably be fine with clean leather gloves, if that's what you have. but the low voltage rubber gloves are fairly thin and easy to work in. whatever you use, if you get a puncture, they're trash for electric work. also you always need to wear keepers with rubber gloves

 

[Busted_Knuckles]

glove selection different class gloves for different voltages. i've watched guys glove 34.5kv, that just creeps me out.
if the house and out buildings are just 240v you would probably be fine with clean leather gloves, if that's what you have. but the low voltage rubber gloves are fairly thin and easy to work in. whatever you use, if you get a puncture, they're trash for electric work. also you always need to wear keepers with rubber gloves

Ok, thanks for the link, what are "keepers" and why do you need to wear them with rubber gloves.

Oh, yes, the farm is 110-220. Im pretty much no longer involved in anything more than single phase 110.

 

[hillbilly1]

Ok, thanks for the link, what are "keepers" and why do you need to wear them with rubber gloves.

Oh, yes, the farm is 110-220. Im pretty much no longer involved in anything more than single phase 110.

He is probably talking about the leather protectors that go over the rubber gloves, there is many names people give them over the years. The protectors are basically leather gloves. If you do it for a living, OSHA requires the rubber gloves to be tested every six months and inspected before everytime there used. If you use them with out the protectors, they have to be sent out for testing everytime this is done, so it's a lot cheaper and safer to go ahead and use the protectors every time.

 

[kursplat]

He is probably talking about the leather protectors that go over the rubber gloves...

yup, sorry for the confusion. the leather also protects te rubber from snags and puctures on sharp edges

 

[1Garageman]

Damn that is scary. I am glad you shared this with us. I have never heard of this before, now I now something more to check for!