Beam above garage is sagging...
- Thread starter WVHick
- Start date
In my opinion, that would warrant further inspection by an engineer.
I honestly don't know enough to say. We have an inspection scheduled for next Tuesday. The guy doing it is a Civil Engineer from the same university I got my EE degree, but he doesn't have a PE license. I trust his education, though. I don't know if he'll be able to shed more light on the issue or not.
Big Bad Dad
Well-known member
That would be a load bearing wall. Looks like the header was undersized and someone tried to reinforce it with the flitch plate later. Hard to be sure with these pictures, but I would be very wary. Do you get much snow load on the roof?
deaddawg58
Well-known member
I don't know if it is the picture but it looks like the room above is sagging also. To be safe I too would recommend an engineer to have a look at it just to be safe.
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Hpozzuoli
Well-known member
I see it from the outside pic, but from the inside it looks straight. It's tough to tell from the pic. Was the siding recent? Is it just the trim drooping?
If there is sag on a header like that on an under house garage I would call an engineer. You need to tell your home inspector to discover the sag and recommend the engineer so it can be a result of the inspection. This way you can back out if necessary.
If there is sag on a header like that on an under house garage I would call an engineer. You need to tell your home inspector to discover the sag and recommend the engineer so it can be a result of the inspection. This way you can back out if necessary.
Somebody needs to calc the appropriate glu-lam, the structure above supported, the old beam fished out and replaced by the new one. Based on the bolts, someone either did a built up header or tried to beef that one up. You don't have a tremendous load, but it is obviously more than your existing beam can handle.
anotheroldguy
Well-known member
Looks like the first couple of bottom rows of siding are sagging also. Cantilevered room over a 16 ft door might be more than that beam can handle. I can't believe a home inspector would miss that. I'd think that would be a major repair.
I would bet old owners had issues with this and tried to remedy the problem. However not the best way to go about it. Honestly I would call in a good builder to have a look and find out how much to fix before going into the closing. I would be curious whats going on keep us posted.
xyster101
Well-known member
Agreed the header is not strong enough. My 18' wide garage door has double LVL beams and it is not load bearing. I would thinknit should not be too hard to replace. A solid weekend job, but it could also snowball and involve $10k to fix.
rburke65
Well-known member
Well if it's a concern now and ya don't even own the house, it's going to be a bigger concern once ya own it. I'd have that ting checked 9 ways to Tuesday! It's obvious in your photos that something is amiss. Good luck.
while it probably wont fall, it will continue to slowly sag as time goes by.
if it bothered you enough, change out the header to LVL(microlam).
but what is going on with that fireplace chimney and dishes on the front corner. it looks horrible.
looks like a lot of diy stuff going on in those pics, just by looking at the wiring and piping and whatnot.
if it bothered you enough, change out the header to LVL(microlam).
but what is going on with that fireplace chimney and dishes on the front corner. it looks horrible.
looks like a lot of diy stuff going on in those pics, just by looking at the wiring and piping and whatnot.
duke5572
Well-known member
In the shot of the garage door opener/beam, is that a crack in the drywall or an antenna hanging down from the opener?
Not sure what's going on with that with that flitch beam. Lots of houses built in that era used them, so it might be original to the house. As noted above, modern code would require a pretty hefty doubled LVL to support a 2' cantilever. A moderate snow load could transmit a large amount of force from the roof to that garage header, exacerbated by the cantilever.
Could be a tricky fix, frankly. Check the rooms above the garage for cracks in the drywall or noticeable floor sag.
I'd be awful leery.
Not sure what's going on with that with that flitch beam. Lots of houses built in that era used them, so it might be original to the house. As noted above, modern code would require a pretty hefty doubled LVL to support a 2' cantilever. A moderate snow load could transmit a large amount of force from the roof to that garage header, exacerbated by the cantilever.
Could be a tricky fix, frankly. Check the rooms above the garage for cracks in the drywall or noticeable floor sag.
I'd be awful leery.
rsanter
Well-known member
My dad had that problem with his garage. We built the house and we knew things were done right and not undersized so it was ignored for a while....until it bugged him so much he couldn't stand it.
We removed the drywall covering it to find that the header had cracked/split and was highly compromised.
We looked at options and I had suggested that a steel plate was added to strengthen it as the easiest option. My dad choose to jack up the garage ceiling/upper story floor and remove/replace the header. It is a good thing my dad wanted to do it the harder way as when we removed the header it was actually worse than we even though it was.
Had things not been over engineers when the house was built, a smaller header likly would have actually broken.
On that house, what do they have in that room? Do they have it overloaded? Pool table? Lots of heavy stuff on shelves?....etc
Bob
We removed the drywall covering it to find that the header had cracked/split and was highly compromised.
We looked at options and I had suggested that a steel plate was added to strengthen it as the easiest option. My dad choose to jack up the garage ceiling/upper story floor and remove/replace the header. It is a good thing my dad wanted to do it the harder way as when we removed the header it was actually worse than we even though it was.
Had things not been over engineers when the house was built, a smaller header likly would have actually broken.
On that house, what do they have in that room? Do they have it overloaded? Pool table? Lots of heavy stuff on shelves?....etc
Bob
bczygan
Well-known member
NICE!
Dimensional lumber with a Flitch plate holding up a roof, second floor wall and second floor floor joists over a 16' opening. With as little depth available, as that has, you will probably need a steel beam. LVL's might not do it.
Dimensional lumber with a Flitch plate holding up a roof, second floor wall and second floor floor joists over a 16' opening. With as little depth available, as that has, you will probably need a steel beam. LVL's might not do it.
Michigan Mike
Well-known member
I agree that door header is probably not strong enough. I would also be concerned about the drywall that was removed for the door opener and the pulleys for the door. That sheetrock is the main protection of the inhabited part of the house from fumes from the garage. There is no way that would pass code.
duke5572
Well-known member
Agreed. The more I look, that whole garage is butchered up, not to mention that hacked in wood burning stove chimney on the opposite end. Sketchy, sketchy, sketchy.
lynnbilodeau
Well-known member
Hire an engineer if you want. Or, you can just install a support post in the middle. It would have the same effect as converting to two doors instead of one, with jack studs in the middle.
My guess is that the original plans for that house called for two doors. I used to have one that looked very similar. Mine had two doors, with support in the middle. My second guess is that the builder decided he was smarter than the architect (or whoever drew the plans) and tried to slightly reinforce that giant header on a load bearing wall so he could install the single door.
My guess is that the original plans for that house called for two doors. I used to have one that looked very similar. Mine had two doors, with support in the middle. My second guess is that the builder decided he was smarter than the architect (or whoever drew the plans) and tried to slightly reinforce that giant header on a load bearing wall so he could install the single door.
BigE
Well-known member
You definitely need to consult a structural engineer. The "header" is not only undersized, it's also improperly supported. There's no real structure to carry the load down to the foundation. But that's not your only problem. The upper floor has been compromised and will need to be jacked back into place when the repair is made. I believe lynn is correct but I'm betting that it was originally 1 single door. They widened it so the existing header size didn't have enough section for the span. And they also didn't carry it into the wall properly so it can't carry that load to the foundation. It's not an impossible task but it will take structural rehab and could be expensive. Plus, you may have a lot of patching and repair work to do on the 2nd floor once they jack it back into place. If you and the misses like the house, I'd make the sale contingent upon repairs done under an engineer's direction and your supervision.
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ddawg16
Well-known member
Sawn lumber? Notice the number of knots in the piece? I'm betting it's not DF1.
My garage header is a 16"x5.5" PSL beam. That ***** is not going to sag.
My garage header is a 16"x5.5" PSL beam. That ***** is not going to sag.
Angelfire
Well-known member
Do not let the inspector off the hook when he/she comes. Unfortunately, many of them haven't a clue about what they are looking at or they are being paid by the seller so it's in their interest to give a "good" report. Back up the inspector by getting a structural engr. in there.....it will be money well spent. You'll either find a serious fault in which case, demand the sellers pay the remediation costs or you walk. Or you'll find there are no issues and will sleep better at night. It's hard to tell from the pics just what's going on, at least for these aging eyes!
+1 on all of the above concerns. Header needs tore out and replaced with big **** LVL or steel I-beam, after jacking everything up and later fixing damage (cracked sheetrock, new paint, etc).
Chimney flue needs tie-downs as it's unsupported. Only should need one Dish !!
Also note the ventilation pipe for Radon gas in basement. Bring in meter and check levels for your family's safety.
Beat price down, Down, DOWN !! Better get that baby for a song.
Chimney flue needs tie-downs as it's unsupported. Only should need one Dish !!
Also note the ventilation pipe for Radon gas in basement. Bring in meter and check levels for your family's safety.
Beat price down, Down, DOWN !! Better get that baby for a song.
FordTruckWench
Well-known member
The sag goes all the way up to the roof! Look at the rain gutter.
Counting brinks on the outside, and looking at how the middle beam is installed, they both look to be made of x8 lumber. Given the age and location of the house, the beams are probably made of multiple 2x8's sistered together. The saving grace is that there may be as many as 5 - part of the front wall seems to be block construction and probably (nominal) 8" thick.
One solution could be to use a taller beam - and "let it into" the joists, using joist hangers to partially support the joists. The cantilever in front means this can't be done! That leaves a heavy steel beam as the only option.
Jlbc212
Well-known member
I worked several years as a garage door mechanic and saw too many garage door headers that were undersized. I wouldn't be surprised if the girder half way back in the center of the garage isn't also undersized. As a previous poster suggested the only effective way to fix this while maintaining the same size vertical opening would be to replace the header with a steel wide flange beam. The other thing you need to check is the integrity of the foundation at each end of the opening.
bczygan
Well-known member
This is a good example of how things were NOT built better in the good old days.
Many homes were built by builders/carpenters with rule of thumb methods. No actual engineering was done. Lots of opportunities to have a critical spot in a structure, and not recognize it.
And as homes and rooms in homes got bigger in recent decades, builders had to move to engineered lumber and even steel for certain parts of the structure. Thankfully codes have gotten more restrictive, and required engineering for larger structures and builders have become more sophisticated. Even so, you do run into problems.
We did one project, a development of upscale PUD homes. Sold homes to some of the Detroit Tigers, including Sparky Anderson, Tom Monaghan and Bo Schembeckler. One model had a volume living room with a circular staircase. One wall was 2 stories of glass. As we built the model home, we discovered 2 problems. The 2 story wall that the stair attached to, needed to become a shear wall, with plywood sheathing and specific nailing patterns, under the drywall. And the big wall of glass turned into a vertical drum head when wind hit it. Ended up having to insert 2 steel tube columns with thick walls, 2 stories tall, to minimize it.
Glad we have all the engineered lumber today. That and steel means you can do almost anything.
Many homes were built by builders/carpenters with rule of thumb methods. No actual engineering was done. Lots of opportunities to have a critical spot in a structure, and not recognize it.
And as homes and rooms in homes got bigger in recent decades, builders had to move to engineered lumber and even steel for certain parts of the structure. Thankfully codes have gotten more restrictive, and required engineering for larger structures and builders have become more sophisticated. Even so, you do run into problems.
We did one project, a development of upscale PUD homes. Sold homes to some of the Detroit Tigers, including Sparky Anderson, Tom Monaghan and Bo Schembeckler. One model had a volume living room with a circular staircase. One wall was 2 stories of glass. As we built the model home, we discovered 2 problems. The 2 story wall that the stair attached to, needed to become a shear wall, with plywood sheathing and specific nailing patterns, under the drywall. And the big wall of glass turned into a vertical drum head when wind hit it. Ended up having to insert 2 steel tube columns with thick walls, 2 stories tall, to minimize it.
Glad we have all the engineered lumber today. That and steel means you can do almost anything.
The header is sagged... guess what, a lot of garage headers get framed wrong and it has probably been in this state for decades..
Certainly not a deal breaker but worth a couple grand to get it repaired.
Bring in up in the inspection report and your attorney will come up with a credit.
Certainly not a deal breaker but worth a couple grand to get it repaired.
Bring in up in the inspection report and your attorney will come up with a credit.
pstnbly
Well-known member
I doubt it's in danger of collapse, but it wont be a cheap fix. Both carriers need to be replaced by steel and the room above will probably need the drywall on the walls removed to facilitate the jacking process and/or cracking issues. It doesn't scare me but you are probably into a $20,000 bill before all is said and done.
Punchwood
Well-known member
IMO That is absolutely a deal breaker. The snowball effect that is having is evident by looking at the floor above it. It's sagging, and when it all get's fixed you'll also be dealing with windows, drywall, etc.
Another thing that I don't like about the place is the slope in the backyard. Water flows downhill. No thanks. I'd run far and fast away from that place.
Another thing that I don't like about the place is the slope in the backyard. Water flows downhill. No thanks. I'd run far and fast away from that place.
Once you jack it back into place it will be good. the header is simply deflected because it was over-spanned.. (If it was going to fail it would have already) once you jack it back into place check 2nd floor and window sills for level and repair any drywall as needed.
A steel post with jack screw at mid span and change to dual garage doors.
the post will need a foundation pad. Actually pretty straightforward process since you don't need to disturb anything but saw cut the driveway, excavate for the column foundation & some re-framing for the new garage doors.
Get an estimate from a local Architect engineer for the design and a price from a contractor.. X 1.5 and this should be the credit on the purchase price..
Some people like to over-complicate things on this site... ALOT OF TYPE As. If you like the place now is the time to negociate the final price..
As an example my detached garage (built in 1938) had sagging headers and roof joists when I bought the property in 2007... I finally corrected it this past summer.. (I fixed the house first)
A steel post with jack screw at mid span and change to dual garage doors.
the post will need a foundation pad. Actually pretty straightforward process since you don't need to disturb anything but saw cut the driveway, excavate for the column foundation & some re-framing for the new garage doors.
Get an estimate from a local Architect engineer for the design and a price from a contractor.. X 1.5 and this should be the credit on the purchase price..
Some people like to over-complicate things on this site... ALOT OF TYPE As. If you like the place now is the time to negociate the final price..
As an example my detached garage (built in 1938) had sagging headers and roof joists when I bought the property in 2007... I finally corrected it this past summer.. (I fixed the house first)
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This is common; Typical in this type of house built in that period. The headers were not strong enough. The ones around me normally were low height garages with old style wood doors w/o openers. The house style did not look correct and the rooms did not work correctly with a full height garage ...
People tried all manner of propping them up -- and this looks like it has a typical attempt at a fix -- bolting on a steel plate or "L" ... they don't work.
Another problem I see: the low height has created the need to cut into the ceiling in a vane attempt to get an opener installed? Who put the stucco on the ceiling? You need to have a fire barrier on the ceiling? The current ceiling can't be original -- or something else is going on -- the top of the garage door is in the ceiling -- I'm not sure the door is connected to the spring.
The fix is to rip it out and put a steel beam in -- the room above will need some patching as will the outside siding. The garage will still be low .. some people lower the garage floor if by luck (not normal) the foundation is low enough and the steps into the house will work.
It is a bit of work -- With that ceiling we could not sell that home in my area.
I would take a good look at whatever is going on with the metal flue on the right of the house -- looks like the just cut through the roof? Stuff like that make me wonder what else was done incorrectly -- like the front wall?
I had two of these for rentals -- they were solid houses. Being mostly block and brick they are more difficult to modify
People tried all manner of propping them up -- and this looks like it has a typical attempt at a fix -- bolting on a steel plate or "L" ... they don't work.
Another problem I see: the low height has created the need to cut into the ceiling in a vane attempt to get an opener installed? Who put the stucco on the ceiling? You need to have a fire barrier on the ceiling? The current ceiling can't be original -- or something else is going on -- the top of the garage door is in the ceiling -- I'm not sure the door is connected to the spring.
The fix is to rip it out and put a steel beam in -- the room above will need some patching as will the outside siding. The garage will still be low .. some people lower the garage floor if by luck (not normal) the foundation is low enough and the steps into the house will work.
It is a bit of work -- With that ceiling we could not sell that home in my area.
I would take a good look at whatever is going on with the metal flue on the right of the house -- looks like the just cut through the roof? Stuff like that make me wonder what else was done incorrectly -- like the front wall?
I had two of these for rentals -- they were solid houses. Being mostly block and brick they are more difficult to modify
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How viable is this option? If this can be done, I'm fine with two garage doors. And certainly sounds a lot better (easier and cheaper) than replacing the beam.
Modifieddriver
Well-known member
I see more problems here than just sag in a critical beam.
The lay of the lot looks like a drainage nightmare. That front yard retaining wall looks like a BIG future maintenance problem.
I'd be taking a look at other properties.
The lay of the lot looks like a drainage nightmare. That front yard retaining wall looks like a BIG future maintenance problem.
I'd be taking a look at other properties.
The current seller had the ceiling installed. My guess is because it is code to have a fire barrier. Not sure how much of a fire barrier it is with the sections cut out for the garage door opener. I would remove the opener and patch up the drywall on the ceiling.
LB-1911
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Well, If that garage door is 16' and you post it in the middle what does that leave you for two garage doors?
Lol, not 8ft ones.
I thought to be a consulting engineer you had to have a PE.
You do, but he still may be able to say enough to let us use the inspection to get out of the contract. I'm sure he's allowed to note that the beam is sagging and is a structural problem.