Beam and stick vs pole help!?

[Cashlion]

So I have a tendency to overthink things but here goes.

I decided to build myself. I am trying to save money on the foundation by pouring concrete piers. On these I plan to build a double 2x12 beam out of treated lumber. On top of that I plan to build a normal stick built 2x6 wall.

This will allow be to build in a way that is more familiar to me. I also feel with good exterior drainage I would avoid the possibility of posts rotting.

I feel that if I am going to build out and insulate my walls later anyway and am looking to install siding so studs would help..... I feel this would be cheaper in the long run.
Any pros or cons I’m not thinking of?

 

[matt_i]

So you're going to have a wood floor? Not trying to qualify that as bad or wrong but just trying to get the whole scope of the idea. That could get cold or invite critters underneath as potential downfalls.

One thing I see right off is that I don't think its acceptable to just nail off the bottom plate of the 2x6 studded wall to a 4x12 on-edge. Not enough uplift connection. The plywood sheathing would help but is going to require a significant nail pattern. Better would be flat 16ga strapping. It would also be wise to plan your uplift connection to the piers. Are you planning to use something like a sonotube + bigfoot to get proper bearing on the soil? It definitely needs to sit below the frostline.

Also of concern is how to splice the 2x12s assuming that's needed.

 

[Cashlion]

So you're going to have a wood floor? Not trying to qualify that as bad or wrong but just trying to get the whole scope of the idea. That could get cold or invite critters underneath as potential downfalls.

One thing I see right off is that I don't think its acceptable to just nail off the bottom plate of the 2x6 studded wall to a 4x12 on-edge. Not enough uplift connection. The plywood sheathing would help but is going to require a significant nail pattern. Better would be flat 16ga strapping. It would also be wise to plan your uplift connection to the piers. Are you planning to use something like a sonotube + bigfoot to get proper bearing on the soil? It definitely needs to sit below the frostline.

Also of concern is how to splice the 2x12s assuming that's needed. Would of course be over the support columns so the splice isn't bearing a moment but it still needs to be solidly connected.

Good points:

I augered out 12” wide holes 42” deep. I plan to widen out the bottom of the holes the day before pouring by hand to increase the footprint of each pier.
I have some free anchor bolts and plan to install these with enough thread that they can be attached the double 2x12 beam by attaching a treated plate to the bottom. This will allow me to reach between and tighten the nuts down.

I am going to pour concrete floor butted against the beam board with some sort of fabric to keep from contact.

I will have to look into strapping for uplift

Would plywood scab pieces as sister connectors work at scabbing locations? There should be enough room inside the beams( approx 2.5 inches.

Forgot to mention plan to slide foam board insulation between the beams.

 

[rburke65]

Sounds similar to a pole barn foundation. I did just that. 6x6 and 4x6” posts, with 2x12” sandwiched inside and out. Then a 2”x10” that sits flat and caps the posts and 2”x12”s. The 2x10” is the sill plate, upon which sits the studded 2x6” wall.

 

[Diesel Dan]

Only place I seen this type of construction was in NE Ohio.
Something like one day garages I think. It was how the garage was built at our first house there. Sure the concrete will be poured against the inner header but from the outside the gap between the boards is usually not sealed and gives rodents a warm place to live...and potentially chew threw the wood and get inside the buildings walls.

When I built my new shop it was a standard pole barn with a double 2x8 rat wall.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

Sounds similar to a pole barn foundation. I did just that. 6x6 and 4x6” posts, with 2x12” sandwiched inside and out. Then a 2”x10” that sits flat and caps the posts and 2”x12”s. The 2x10” is the sill plate, upon which sits the studded 2x6” wall.

Is this your garage?, I got these pic's somewhere on GJ, when I seen it I thought it was a neat idea so I saved the pic.

 

[matt_i]

It would be a good idea to put some vertical rebar pieces in the concrete columns imo, don't want an oblique slice to break off thru cracking and not be aligned.

 

[Bretny]

Your bolting 2x12 down flat ontop of the concrete? If so thats not the way do do it. 2x material layed flat has next to no strength.

If your going to stick build it do it right from the begning. Dont have a pole barn foundation with stick built structural walls on the the foundation.

Saving money on the foundation can make for a crappy building. Why not just pour a pad and stick build it if you want to stick build it?

 

[maxpat82]

Why not just doing it right the first time and pour a monolithic slab and them your 2x6 wall on it?

 

[tfb]

I'm not a big fan of pole barns today because of one reason... the quality of PT lumber has become **** due to the epa's restrictions on what preservatives can be used. I recently saw a deck that was built in 2010 that had to be completely ripped out because it was 90% decayed. deckboards, joist, rails, all rotted.

So I like the idea of concrete piers vs. PT posts.

 

[ard]

No way I'd build on what amounts to a PT foundation. Even pt, I want it away from dirt and moisture.

IMO save your money, pour concrete. My 2 cents

 

[Diesel Dan]

I'm not a big fan of pole barns today because of one reason... the quality of PT lumber has become **** due to the epa's restrictions on what preservatives can be used. I recently saw a deck that was built in 2010 that had to be completely ripped out because it was 90% decayed. deckboards, joist, rails, all rotted.

So I like the idea of concrete piers vs. PT posts.

That's what perma-columns are for.

 

[rburke65]

mrobins297......no it’s not mine but similar. I used 4x6 and 6x6 every 4 ft rather than every 8’. It will last longer than me.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

Mel in’s.....no it’s not mine but similar. I used 4x6 and 6x6 every 4 ft rather than every 8’. It will last longer than me.

I believe that

 

[Bretny]

I'm not a big fan of pole barns today because of one reason... the quality of PT lumber has become **** due to the epa's restrictions on what preservatives can be used. I recently saw a deck that was built in 2010 that had to be completely ripped out because it was 90% decayed. deckboards, joist, rails, all rotted.

So I like the idea of concrete piers vs. PT posts.

I dont like them either. Maby in low rain areas that dont have termites they work but in our climate and alot of the coutry wood has no business being in the ground.

That's what perma-columns are for.

How much do those cost?

 

[matt_i]

I think wood in direct contact with the ground is OK, but I don't think many take the time to specify and verify the grade. Its just about lowest cost for the proper dimension wood with a green tint...

https://www.americanpoleandtimber.com/wp-content/uploads/treated_wood_specguide.pdf

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

What is the size of this structure?
Actually sounds a bit overkill for an 8ftx10ft shed with 8ft walls but not something I would even consider for a "pole-barn" sized structure (say 80ftx100ft with 16ft walls).

 

[firebirdparts]

A double 2 by 12 would be pretty weak compared to the earth, so I guess it comes down to having enough piers. 4' certainly seems good. More than enough.

 

[Cashlion]

Answer some questions:

Size. 30x32x10’


8’ pier spacing

 

[Bretny]

Draw what your wanting to do with the items in question. Im still having trouble trying to figure out what your wanting to do

 

[tfb]

That's what perma-columns are for.

I'm glad to see that, my only experience with pole barns was when they'd throw a bag of sakrete in a hole and drop the PT in. Back then the posts were a lot better preserved.

So are these standard practice with all pole barn construction today?

 

[Diesel Dan]

I'm glad to see that, my only experience with pole barns was when they'd throw a bag of sakrete in a hole and drop the PT in. Back then the posts were a lot better preserved.

So are these standard practice with all pole barn construction today?

No because they cost more than a regular post.
There are still builders that think a 80lb bag of dry quickcrete is sufficient for post foundations on pole barns too.

For costs you'd have to go to their website as they have many options available. Co-worker built his 30x50 with perma-columns. My 40x72 was built on a foundation with stick built walls.

 

[red61cj5]

Mine were roughly 100 dollars each about 5 years ago. There are different sizes available however.

 

[472scout]

If you can build stick walls than you can build post frame walls. What are you planning on using for exterior and interior walls?

 

[Skiff Builder]

I think wood in direct contact with the ground is OK, but I don't think many take the time to specify and verify the grade. Its just about lowest cost for the proper dimension wood with a green tint...

https://www.americanpoleandtimber.com/wp-content/uploads/treated_wood_specguide.pdf

+1 on getting the correct grade treated lumber. One of my boat garages is sitting on 2.5 CCA 11" ****, piling stubs 42" deep, sitting on a 12"thick x 18" diam conc foot. Double 2x10 .60 CCA girders,2x10 joists,3/4" deck. If boat is not in there the YukonXL is.
You can get this lumber if you look for it (not big box)

There are millions of these pilings/timbers submerged in the sea/bottom muck- holding up homes,seawalls,bulkheads,piers,bridges and boardwalks in my state.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

you need something like this for your post

 

[mrobins297aaa]

Wood treated to (UC4B) heavy-duty standards should be considered when the wood will be used to support a permanent structure.
•UC3B treated lumber is for above ground, not for near ground, light-duty use
• UC4A treated lumber is for ground contact, general use
• UC4B treated lumber is for ground contact, heavy-duty use