Beginner perspective on buying ratchets and sockets

[swsman]

How can anyone argue with the importance of knowledge? Of course its important. And I know there are many here who can do really fine work with really **** tools. And for the record, I'm absolutely impressed. And no, I'm not kidding. I've talked about my elder brother who I lost a few years ago to Leukemia. He was 59. Dull knives just cut better for him. He just had that touch. I'd be willing to bet money some of you reading have the exact same gift. But I wouldn't describe what my bother had as either knowledge or competance.

The difference between rounding fastener heads or shearing their shanks isn't knowledge that you can gain from reading books, GJ posts, or watching YouTube videos. You need to be able to sense how much torque is too much. And there's nothing at all easy about that. I think it can only come with lots and lots of practice and probably a lot of time either making mistakes or with a torque wrench.

I feel kinda bad about the position we find ourselves in so many threads where someone like me has to reply to some gifted mechanic's advice and tell that person his/her advice is terrible. That person has been fixing Ferraris with tools he keeps in a 5 gallon bucket of dirty water. "You don't need a toolbox" "E torx? I remove those with my teeth. I knocked out one of my molars and the gap perfectly fits a E18." How do you argue with that. But for 99.9% of GJ readers, its terrible advice.

If you are starting from scratch, and especially if you are young and committed, buy nice tools. And try hard to think about prices in terms of the rest of your life, not what some firm in China is willing to lose on tools. A ratchet that will perform well and last a lifetime is worth forgoing a dinner out or 2. Sockets are worth more than your cable bill. If you are buying sets of tools that cost less than dinner for 4 at McDonalds, you realy can afford better.

It is a great time for someone getting started in the game as there is a plethora of choices.

From USA to Japan to German made etc., and brands that fit smaller budget.

I have been tooling up for close to 30yrs, at this point it boils down to upgrading, or filling a specific need. Someone starting out has to use a different strategy.

A great time to be alive as the technology is changing, and with it more specialization will come. This includes tools as well.

 

[AEAdam]

I did the overwhelming majority of the maintenance on my 1.8t GTI for 20 years with a Husky mechanics tool set just fine. 3 standard size ratchets and a 1/2" breaker bar were as fancy as my drive tools got. Did it stop me from doing any of the fixes I attempted over the years, no. Would they have been a lot easier had every one of those Husky tools been SO, I doubt it. I'll tell you what would have though, fixed and flex head ratchets of varying lengths and the same for wrenches.

All those things and more are available for pennies on the dollar compared to high end brands and be just as functional. The only reason I've upgraded and expanded the tools I have is to avoid having to mess with anything I don't have to on my now 20+ yo car. If a $20 dollar flex head ratchet helps me avoid messing with and possibly breaking a NLA plastic fitting or connector that's seen a gajillion heat cycles, then here is your $20 good Sir or Madam.

My tools are definitely a mishmash of mid to lower tier brands and I don't feel like I'm making my repairs any harder with what I've got. If I could go back in time to give myself any consumer advice at all, it would have been to buy a Toyota or a Honda. VW can shove every single one-time use torque to yield bolts right up their ***.

If your tools are making you money I could see the justification, but my tools are for saving me money. That way I can buy more man toys to that need maintaining.

Hmmm. Did your Husky set include triple squares? What about swivel torx? What about the 17mm allen drain plug? I had one of these cars. Mine was a 2009. Something is wrong with this story.

This may be a good example of my post above. EVERY SINGLE job I did on my GTI pushed me and my tools to their limits. This car is one of the reasons my socket drawer looks like this:

Spend a minute and look at what specifically is in here. Allens and ball ends in different lengths, swivel torx, std and long torx, short and std length triple squares, all were essential to service this vehicle. I'm no @CoThG. Everything here was bought for some job. There's some degree of pain wrapped around each set. Not 100% sure, but I suspect some of these tools are only available from Snap on. Icon doesn't make all this stuff.

And it wasn't like I needed these once in a while. They were more or less needed for every job. If the work you did was oil changes, yeah, got it, Husky sockets would be fine.



Pretty sure this was the PCV valve. I recall that not being too tricky. Took this pic for you guys who are amateurs like me to show the advantages of a roll cart. This was a beautiful day to work outside.


Here, I was replacing one of the head lights. Whole front valance needed to come off. Nothing easy about this. Note favorite ratcheting screwdriver and POS Dodge Durango in background.

To my point, sure, working on an old German car? Buy a junky set of tools that includes tools you don't need and it's missing its price X2 of tools you do need? Hard pass.

Really good chance you will need a socket drawer that looks more like mine than not. I have sets where a VW mechanic would just have a few sizes. The devil in car repairs is in the details. HumbleMechanic has plenty of videos about tools you need to fix VWs. A husky set wouldn't cut it.

Not trying to call any out. It's just...there's more to this story than we are hearing. And posts like this one fit a narrative on GJ. But it's not necessarily a narrative other people can follow to maintain their vehicles. To be clear, you may not need Snap on hex sockets at all, but you absolutely will need decent Torx and triple squares out of the gate. A 300pc mechanic set wouldn't get you much past oil changes in this vehicle.

Edit: I think my pictures are beautiful above. And I'm thinking about my own narrative. In general, I think I make everything a bit more complicated than maybe it needs to be. I see complexity everywhere and seek the best tool, where others might just use pliers (I almost never use pliers). My actual reality of car repair looks more like this:


Filthy, uncomfortable, get up too fast and I'm dizzy, tired, frustrated, just trying to get this job done. My tools are my attempt to bring order to the chaos, advantage where I feel up against it. I think this picture better describes my 40yrs of car repair. Note filthy garage floor (I'm replacing this).

 

[f121]

Hmmm. Did your Husky set include triple squares? What about swivel torx? What about the 17mm allen drain plug? I had one of these cars. Mine was a 2009. Something is wrong with this story.

This may be a good example of my post above. EVERY SINGLE job I did on my GTI pushed me and my tools to their limits. This car is one of the reasons my socket drawer looks like this:

Spend a minute and look at what specifically is in here. Allens and ball ends in different lengths, swivel torx, std and long torx, short and std length triple squares, all were essential to service this vehicle. I'm no @CoThG. Everything here was bought for some job. There's some degree of pain wrapped around each set. Not 100% sure, but I suspect some of these tools are only available from Snap on. Icon doesn't make all this stuff.

And it wasn't like I needed these once in a while. They were more or less needed for every job. If the work you did was oil changes, yeah, got it, Husky sockets would be fine.



Pretty sure this was the PCV valve. I recall that not being too tricky. Took this pic for you guys who are amateurs like me to show the advantages of a roll cart. This was a beautiful day to work outside.


Here, I was replacing one of the head lights. Whole front valance needed to come off. Nothing easy about this. Note favorite ratcheting screwdriver and POS Dodge Durango in background.

To my point, sure, working on an old German car? Buy a junky set of tools that includes tools you don't need and it's missing its price X2 of tools you do need? Hard pass.

Really good chance you will need a socket drawer that looks more like mine than not. I have sets where a VW mechanic would just have a few sizes. The devil in car repairs is in the details. HumbleMechanic has plenty of videos about tools you need to fix VWs. A husky set wouldn't cut it.

Not trying to call any out. It's just...there's more to this story than we are hearing. And posts like this one fit a narrative on GJ. But it's not necessarily a narrative other people can follow to maintain their vehicles. To be clear, you may not need Snap on hex sockets at all, but you absolutely will need decent Torx and triple squares out of the gate. A 300pc mechanic set wouldn't get you much past oil changes in this vehicle.

Notably you’re talking about two different generations of gti. But I think the narrative is the same, buy the special tools you need to get the job done (like those damn spline bits for the vw driveshafts), plus flex head ratchets which make life way easier?

 

[swsman]

Hmmm. Did your Husky set include triple squares? What about swivel torx? What about the 17mm allen drain plug? I had one of these cars. Mine was a 2009. Something is wrong with this story.

This may be a good example of my post above. EVERY SINGLE job I did on my GTI pushed me and my tools to their limits. This car is one of the reasons my socket drawer looks like this:

Spend a minute and look at what specifically is in here. Allens and ball ends in different lengths, swivel torx, std and long torx, short and std length triple squares, all were essential to service this vehicle. I'm no @CoThG. Everything here was bought for some job. There's some degree of pain wrapped around each set. Not 100% sure, but I suspect some of these tools are only available from Snap on. Icon doesn't make all this stuff.

And it wasn't like I needed these once in a while. They were more or less needed for every job. If the work you did was oil changes, yeah, got it, Husky sockets would be fine.



Pretty sure this was the PCV valve. I recall that not being too tricky. Took this pic for you guys who are amateurs like me to show the advantages of a roll cart. This was a beautiful day to work outside.


Here, I was replacing one of the head lights. Whole front valance needed to come off. Nothing easy about this. Note favorite ratcheting screwdriver and POS Dodge Durango in background.

To my point, sure, working on an old German car? Buy a junky set of tools that includes tools you don't need and it's missing its price X2 of tools you do need? Hard pass.

Really good chance you will need a socket drawer that looks more like mine than not. I have sets where a VW mechanic would just have a few sizes. The devil in car repairs is in the details. HumbleMechanic has plenty of videos about tools you need to fix VWs. A husky set wouldn't cut it.

Not trying to call any out. It's just...there's more to this story than we are hearing. And posts like this one fit a narrative on GJ. But it's not necessarily a narrative other people can follow to maintain their vehicles. To be clear, you may not need Snap on hex sockets at all, but you absolutely will need decent Torx and triple squares out of the gate. A 300pc mechanic set wouldn't get you much past oil changes in this vehicle.

Edit: I think my pictures are beautiful above. And I'm thinking about my own narrative. In general, I think I make everything a bit more complicated than maybe it needs to be. I see complexity everywhere and seek the best tool, where others might just use pliers (I almost never use pliers). My actual reality of car repair looks more like this:


Filthy, uncomfortable, get up too fast and I'm dizzy, tired, frustrated, just trying to get this job done. My tools are my attempt to bring order to the chaos, advantage where I feel up against it. I think this picture better describes my 40yrs of car repair. Note filthy garage floor (I'm replacing this).

The luxury of creeper, I still use cardboard at soon to be 48. Rest of the misery I hear you on. Two jacks and jack stands here.

Just like sliding on cardboard better, as well as it is not fighting me when getting up.

I maintain two motorcycles, Zuma 125 scooter, Yamaha Kodiak 450 atv, daily Ford F250, Impala with 3.9V6, Fiat 500, and a 2nd gen NB Miata.
Plus some other stuff for friends as it comes in.

I certainly hear you on getting tools on making work easier, all for that myself.

 

[mikey03]

@AEAdam ball end hex sockets for car work?

 

[Professor Gascan]

Of course that set didn't come with triple squares or swivel torx. What tool set does? It came with hex and torx sockets and I had triple squares insert bits that I bought from carquest when I had a mk2, though I've never needed them on the mk4. Wouldn't any tool set from a big box store be 75% unused when you're only working on a single make and model? Hell, if you've got an early 00's toyota you can pretty much strip the car with about 5 socket and wrench sizes.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear, but when the car was younger I wouldn't think twice about removing half a dozen things to get to what I'm actually trying to replace. But as the car aged I've become much more apprehensive about doing that. I try and disturb as little as possible while I'm working under the hood.

I'm not at all opposed to spending money on specific tools if I need them, but that need hadn't surfaced until recently. And as someone else mentioned a mk4 is not at all a mk5/6. There are a lot less ts and torx fasteners on a mk4, lot's o' hex heads though.

 

[AEAdam]

@AEAdam ball end hex sockets for car work?

Oh 100%. But don't take my word for it. I think this YouTube video, is directly relevant to this thread. I have a lot of thoughts about this video, but maybe, if enough people watch it, we can start a thread to discuss the details.

I bought my tools long before I ever saw one of these videos. Maybe its validating for me that his advice confirms my own.

I guess my take is: This video discusses the details. And hex sockets and big sockets are barely discussed. There are SO many different kinds of tools you want to make vehicle maintenance easy. Too many GJ threads seem to begin and end debating brands of hex sockets.

 

[mikey03]

Oh 100%. But don't take my word for it. I think this YouTube video, is directly relevant to this thread. I have a lot of thoughts about this video, but maybe, if enough people watch it, we can start a thread to discuss the details.

I bought my tools long before I ever saw one of these videos. Maybe its validating for me that his advice confirms my own.

I guess my take is: This video discusses the details. And hex sockets and big sockets are barely discussed. There are SO many different kinds of tools you want to make vehicle maintenance easy. Too many GJ threads seem to begin and end debating brands of hex sockets.

That’s a real good video man thanks for sharing it

I see he has ball end hex sockets too but funny enough he sheared the end of his which was my point about them not being too good. I thought they were for ikea furniture tbh. Are car engineers designing things so you can’t get a straight shot at a inhex bolt? Or people trying to cheat and take fewer things out? I honestly haven’t come across many inhex bolts in my car work but I’m not as experienced as you guys.

 

[AEAdam]

That’s a real good video man thanks for sharing it

I see he has ball end hex sockets too but funny enough he sheared the end of his which was my point about them not being too good. I thought they were for ikea furniture tbh.

I probably said that. I assembled a house full of ikea furniture and thankfully had my automotive tools. Long balls were a game changer.

Are car engineers designing things so you can’t get a straight shot at a inhex bolt? Or people trying to cheat and take fewer things out?

Yes to the latter. And cheating is the wrong vibe. @Professor Gascan said it better. The repair manuals may tell you to remove one part to access another, but as cars get older, you want to limit how many things you disturb. Sometimes there is no alternative, like removing an intake manifold to replace an injector. But if you don’t have to, if a long ball or swivel torx allows you to not remove the entire dash board…. Like I always say, that one part of one job could easily pay for that entire set of tools. The cost of auto repair is really pretty staggering.

I honestly haven’t come across many inhex bolts in my car work but I’m not as experienced as you guys.

Here’s my take on the video and the advice he offers. You’ve heard me say all this before:

1. At this point, the most challenging automotive fasteners are the socket head screws, not 6 or 12pts. Don’t go cheap on bit sockets, and have extras and varying lengths. If you aren’t sure what you‘ll need most, my recommendation is to buy stubbies. Stubbies are good for access and also stiffer for stubborn fasteners.
2. 1/4” drive is a legit engine repair drive. Spend for quality here. I like mid depth. Get good extensions and ratchets. Spend more on 1/4”, less on 1/2” drive.
3. I’m not sure swivel sockets are optional anymore. We used to use those universal adapters. Wobble extensions and swivel sockets are pretty much essential “basics”.
4. Single purpose tools are fast. I think interchangeable tip screwdrivers are actually a good value. Even the super expensive Snap on ratcheting screwdrivers. You get a beautiful handle, ratcheting functionality, and you can put any bit or socket on it that you want. BUT! A couple nut-drivers and torx screwdrivers are just faster. Charles has 6 and 7mm nut-drivers just for hose clamps and. Good selection of Torx-drivers (T20, T30, T40). Didn’t hear him mention T25 and T27.
5. Everybody needs the SHLF80A 1/2” ratchet. Charles is not a big man. Surprised he’s broken them. I’m probably literally twice his size and never have. I trust this tool. The A model is said to be stronger than the initial. Maybe that’s what happened to his.
6. He didn’t talk about it in this video, but pretty sure he has elsewhere. I never liked combination wrenches and thought open ends were only for Model Ts. Good combination wrenches with good open ends are fast and efficient. I use wrenches way more often now that I’ve upgraded mine (snap on XL flank drive+ SOEXLM).
7. Panel popping plastic pry bars (alliteration for our English majors) aren’t just for body shops. You might need these to change a tail lightbulb. Charles mentioned guitar picks. I use old credit cards, plastic spuggers etc. I have only a few metal trim tools. Don’t wait till you need these to buy them. These should be very high on beginners’ lists of tools to buy.
8. I think you can go cheap on impact sockets. These are essentially consumable tools. I don’t think cheap ones perform differently from expensive ones EXCEPT: The swivels from the truck brands do seem to be better. Moving parts on impact sockets should scare you. Always wear safety glasses when using your impact, but especially when impacting swivel sockets.

 

[Zewnten]

@CoThG @T45 I'm going to disagree on the CAT sockets. Prices are regional, the local dealer here wants almost $100+ per set and almost never has sales. Plus the warranty is only 90 days which usually doesn't matter but these sockets are not Snap On quality. Lots of my coworkers had them in their boxes and they're just soft and deform too easy. I'm guessing something is skipped to keep the costs down for CAT, similar to my issues with Williams, vs whatever Snap On did, I don't have any new sockets so maybe they all have this issue?

For DIY I'm sure CAT is fine, for the serious users I'd tell them to go with Proto. Zoro has 20% off all the time and they come with a lifetime warranty. 1/4 dr metric set cost me $55 shipped to my door. Had an issue where one of the sockets was stamped upside down, and they shipped a new socket no problem. With my CAT store I have to turn in the whole set, not a the end of the world but annoying. Add in driving to the store vs handling everything through mail and I think Proto is the winner.

 

[CoThG]

@CoThG @T45 I'm going to disagree on the CAT sockets. Prices are regional, the local dealer here wants almost $100+ per set and almost never has sales. Plus the warranty is only 90 days which usually doesn't matter but these sockets are not Snap On quality. Lots of my coworkers had them in their boxes and they're just soft and deform too easy. I'm guessing something is skipped to keep the costs down for CAT, similar to my issues with Williams, vs whatever Snap On did, I don't have any new sockets so maybe they all have this issue?

For DIY I'm sure CAT is fine, for the serious users I'd tell them to go with Proto. Zoro has 20% off all the time and they come with a lifetime warranty. 1/4 dr metric set cost me $55 shipped to my door. Had an issue where one of the sockets was stamped upside down, and they shipped a new socket no problem. With my CAT store I have to turn in the whole set, not a the end of the world but annoying. Add in driving to the store vs handling everything through mail and I think Proto is the winner.

Cat Snap-On sockets have a lifetime warranty through Cat.

 

[mngundog]

Somebody calculated the CAT sockets are the ± same price as ICON...and cheaper than Koken.

I believe in one of the recent CAT threads, someone did that calculation using the Cat sale price vs the ICON full retail price (that nobody's ever paid).

 

[Tennessee Cattleman]

Would recommend getting a Snap-on Duel 80 ratchet in 3/8 drive to go with whatever brand of sockets you choose, they are very nice to use.

 

[T45]

@CoThG @T45 I'm going to disagree on the CAT sockets. Prices are regional, the local dealer here wants almost $100+ per set..

For DIY I'm sure CAT is fine, for the serious users I'd tell them to go with Proto.

CAT will ship, so find a dealer in Kansas with 20% off...you're good to go. The will bill you shipping that looks dumb, but its the sales tax, which they don't charge tacked on to the shipping fee (I think someone explained).

The of 10-19mm shallows...is like $60. 3/8-3/4 SAE is like $32..thats before the 20% off. I mean if you don't buy that as an apprenctice/novice...you'd be crazy. Even just those two single sets, and nothing else. But I'd get the hex, torx, and 1/4 drive deeps in both sae+metric at least. The 3p plier, the 5p hard handles, 5/8 square shank flat to, etc all no-brainers for an Apprentice toolkit, if you had nothing just an empty box...

I've not heartd the heat treat *****, I'd kind of be suprised if that's true.

 

[T45]

I believe in one of the recent CAT threads, someone did that calculation using the Cat sale price vs the ICON full retail price (that nobody's ever paid).

Icon was -35% sale over the weekend, but Icon chrome sockets...the heat treat is definitely not great...some of their other stuff is better (ICON adapter set, etc). For impacts, value of the Quinn sets on sale is absolute no-brainer, IMHO.

 

[shoggoth80]

Perhaps a little redundant advice, as this sort of topic has been done quite a bit. Get something that has a consistently simple and reliable warranty. Everything breaks. Nobody makes a good torx bit Snap On might make the best of the Torx bits... But you WILL still eff them up eventually. Lol. Their ratchets are quite nice to use; no lie detected. That said, the Icon G2 ratchets are very affordable and quite surprising.

As far as affordable, serviceable tools... It really is a time of plenty. It helps to know who OEMs what. Or, perhaps who sources a lot of stuff from what OEMs.

Some of it depends on your working environment, and what else is available locally in a pinch. Not all. But I would argue it's a healthy factor. Three that have never given me guff about warranty have been Snap On, Harbor Freight, and Tekton. Proto/SBD hasn't stiffed me on warranty... It just takes a while. Lowes has, Gear Wrench has, and Home Depot has tried. Just things to keep in mind. Some hardware store stuff is usable, even in a more professionally oriented environment... And some of it I would stay far away from even DIY. It's a pick and choose world.

The larger the socket or wrench size, the more leeway you have for "buying cheap" so to speak. I've got HF 1/2 drive sockets that I've owned for probably 20 years still doing service. I've got Tractor Supply impacts that I bought on clearance that put in the work. I've got old stock Armstrong impacts that have been de-rusted more than once that I wouldn't trade. My basic combo wrenches were used Armstrong that I bought off a buddy probably 14 years ago. Etc.

Lots of good stuff out there. Cost will stack up fast, even "being cheap," if you have to build a full functional box in a short amount of time.

 

[AEAdam]

Counterpoint to @shoggoth80, not to be disagreeable, but just to provide a fuller picture:

If we are thinking about beginners, my sense is, maybe forget the warranty. What you want are tools that don't break, have reliable quality, not reliable warrantees. attractive warrantees have become a marketing technique for people making lower quality items.

If you are breaking tools in this day and age, something is wrong and replacement tools aren't the solution.

I broke tools when I started. I had Craftsman tools, easily replaced on a Sunday at Sears stores. I have a couple thoughts:

1. The tools were really not great quality, not great steel, not well made. I sheared several bit sockets, stripped ratchets, cracked sockets open. Most tools are generally better quality now. But maybe have a think about what tools you are most likely to push to their limits. For me, working on old German cars, Allen bit sockets were a clear point of failure. I needed better quality and quickly upgraded to Snap on and never broken another Allen bit socket. I used my long ratchets when I needed more oomph. My Craftsman ratchets would reverse under load. "Busted knuckles" is no joke, nor is it hyperbole. And I always worked gloveless, which I don't do now.
2. Getting replacement tools of the tool I just broke wasn't a guaranteed solution to the root problem. Tools don't really "fatigue" in the way people think they do. We exceed their elastic limits and fail them. I absolutely did break some replacement tools on the same hardware.
3. The time of stopping the repair, washing up, driving some other vehicle to fetch a replacement tool or part, could be the only good time I had left (before dinner, before the rain, etc etc). Maybe it's just me, but even as a young man, I felt time pressure to finish a repair. And I never (even today) factor in time to exchange a tool or part. Never.

What I think all newbies need to hear is: You can easily get in over your head, such that it would have been better had you not attempted swapping those warped brake rotors yourself. That caliper bolt can be so stuck etc etc. Or maybe you shear something such that you can't simply put the car back together.

When that day comes, and it will for most people, you need a good quality, tight fitting socket, made of good steel, and a long ratchet or breaker bar you can trust, and more than likely, some sort of impact gun. And not a Milwaukee bit driver that all the cool techs use on YouTube, but a big ugly 1/2" drive gun with at least 500ftlbs of reversing torque and preferably double that.

I don't wholly disagree with @shoggoth80. And his recommendations are sound. But I think it's a bit irresponsible to suggest that one can "get away with cheaper tools because their warranty is good". That's not a smart chess move in my opinion. And if you are tracking, this isn't theory. I'm talking about my personal history.

A better discussion might be: Where specifically can you "go cheap" and where should you absolutely not go cheap? Feels like a discussion we've had. If so, maybe I've forgotten. There are absolutely tools you don't need expensive versions of.

Just to spark your thoughts, I think the my past scenario is a good one: I was fixing my daily driver on a weekend. I had jacks and stands, and whatever basic hand tools Craftsman had. Not every bolt under the car is accessible with an impact gun. But I would advise all weekend mechanics spring for a battery or air if its convenient, impact gun. But you can't rely on it 100%, especially if you don't have access to a lift.

For engine back work, there could be bolts that are pretty tight, but they could be difficult to access with a gun. It's these jobs specifically where you need good quality sockets, extensions, long ratchets, maybe wrenches to reach and remove an alternator or starter motor hardware for example. These are pretty common repairs. They are fairly easy to diagnose. And you could save several hundred dollars DIYing.

Where I was going with my earlier message, talking about access restrictions, just changing spark plugs can be a real pain on most modern cars. Manufacturers are saying their plugs are good for 80,000 miles or whatever. 1) BS. 2) What about those of us driving cars for way longer than that? That's a simple maintenance job, you might need "silver bullet" tools for (like swivels, or swivelling spark plug sockets).

 

[littlebean]

What I think all newbies need to hear is: You can easily get in over your head, such that it would have been better had you not attempted swapping those warped brake rotors yourself. That caliper bolt can be so stuck etc etc. Or maybe you shear something such that you can't simply put the car back together.

this is so true, recently was trying to do a bearing swop on Ford Focus (UK) and, in spite of good quality kit, just couldn't shift it so it went to a garage to be done.
may be 'Newbie, know thy limits.....' should be on every hardware store wall

 

[shoggoth80]

Counterpoint to @shoggoth80, not to be disagreeable, but just to provide a fuller picture:

If we are thinking about beginners, my sense is, maybe forget the warranty. What you want are tools that don't break, have reliable quality, not reliable warrantees. attractive warrantees have become a marketing technique for people making lower quality items.

If you are breaking tools in this day and age, something is wrong and replacement tools aren't the solution.

I broke tools when I started. I had Craftsman tools, easily replaced on a Sunday at Sears stores. I have a couple thoughts:

1. The tools were really not great quality, not great steel, not well made. I sheared several bit sockets, stripped ratchets, cracked sockets open. Most tools are generally better quality now. But maybe have a think about what tools you are most likely to push to their limits. For me, working on old German cars, Allen bit sockets were a clear point of failure. I needed better quality and quickly upgraded to Snap on and never broken another Allen bit socket. I used my long ratchets when I needed more oomph. My Craftsman ratchets would reverse under load. "Busted knuckles" is no joke, nor is it hyperbole. And I always worked gloveless, which I don't do now.
2. Getting replacement tools of the tool I just broke wasn't a guaranteed solution to the root problem. Tools don't really "fatigue" in the way people think they do. We exceed their elastic limits and fail them. I absolutely did break some replacement tools on the same hardware.
3. The time of stopping the repair, washing up, driving some other vehicle to fetch a replacement tool or part, could be the only good time I had left (before dinner, before the rain, etc etc). Maybe it's just me, but even as a young man, I felt time pressure to finish a repair. And I never (even today) factor in time to exchange a tool or part. Never.

What I think all newbies need to hear is: You can easily get in over your head, such that it would have been better had you not attempted swapping those warped brake rotors yourself. That caliper bolt can be so stuck etc etc. Or maybe you shear something such that you can't simply put the car back together.

When that day comes, and it will for most people, you need a good quality, tight fitting socket, made of good steel, and a long ratchet or breaker bar you can trust, and more than likely, some sort of impact gun. And not a Milwaukee bit driver that all the cool techs use on YouTube, but a big ugly 1/2" drive gun with at least 500ftlbs of reversing torque and preferably double that.

I don't wholly disagree with @shoggoth80. And his recommendations are sound. But I think it's a bit irresponsible to suggest that one can "get away with cheaper tools because their warranty is good". That's not a smart chess move in my opinion. And if you are tracking, this isn't theory. I'm talking about my personal history.

A better discussion might be: Where specifically can you "go cheap" and where should you absolutely not go cheap? Feels like a discussion we've had. If so, maybe I've forgotten. There are absolutely tools you don't need expensive versions of.

You know... It's been a good while since I've busted a hard line hand tool. The last socket I broke that I clearly remember was an ages old Plomb. The last drive tool was a Pittsburgh breaker bar, and that was on a severely seized axle nut (wheel bearing job).

Like AEAdam, I've broken plenty of stuff, particularly when I was younger. Quality differences were greater then. Some items are essentially consumables. Bits and impacts particularly.

Broken plenty of stuff at work too. But for perspective on that, it's government and the tools are issued. It hasn't been until very recently that techs coming in got much of anything new. Plenty of SK, Craftsman, Proto has bitten the dust there. Snap On fails too. Lol. I've seen many different brand torx bits break. That's why I say nobody truly makes a GOOD set. Most the broken items that have been supplied new have failed due to what I would call abuse however.

Everybody's experience is a little different, and it absolutely colors the advice we give. My personal box is a mix-master of all sorts of stuff. My old work box was a mix of older industrial and GSA brands. Our current build outs are very different than when I started with my employer. We have a tool crib. As a hefty DIY, I still need a greater mix of tools in my personal box than I did in my work box.

Not entirely sure where I was going with this one. Just kinda hoping the insight would be helpful to someone.

 

[Mb4]

Didn't have time to read the entire thread but in case anyone hasn't said it: If you're just starting out, it doesn't matter what you purchase - to a point. There's nothing wrong with the HF Icon line and their warranty is very good. However, there isn't really a middle ground here. If you don't want to buy a premium brand like SnapOn or Proto, it doesn't make sense to pay more than the Icon.

Now if you're going to be wrenching a lot and want a little extra comfort, it can make sense to pay more for a premium ratchet as long as you don't abuse it, but only spend the money on the ratchet. Get a nice SnapOn/Bahco (sometimes they're cheaper)/Proto/whatever and then spend the rest of the money on the Icon sockets. You'll still save a lot of money that way.

 

[Hakeem]

I'm on the opposite side of the fence, I have plenty of Snap on, Mac, Proto, Williams, Craftsman etc, my biggest issue is replacing tools. I don't have a tool truck that comes by, I don't have a Proto dealer near me. Starting buying Tekton, break a tool, send a picture and new tool in the mail. Obtw, haven't broken a Tekton tool yet.

Agreed, I wasn’t the biggest Tekton fan but they have been winning me over with what might be the best warranty on the market:

No Time Limits
It doesn't matter when you got the tool or how old it is.

No Receipts
You don't have to worry about keeping receipts. If you own the tool, our support comes with it. Often, we ask you to send a picture of your product to verify your request and give us more information.

Shipping on Us
When we send you a replacement item, we always cover the cost of shipping the new product.

If we receive your request before 2 p.m. ET on a weekday and have all the information we need, we'll ship you a replacement the same day.

Compared to Snapon which requires me to request a shipping label, wait for them to email it, print out the label, pack the tool up (not always simple for bigger items), drop it off at UPS, and wait for them to send me a replacement. 5-7 business day turnaround on the three items I’ve warrantied.

 

[lund]

If the goal is rounding fasteners and busting knuckles old Craftsman is fantastic. I'm so glad to have replaced mine with Snap-On and Icon.

I have a lot of Craftsman sockets and wrenches (pro line mostly, plus some coarse raised panels ) and some of the pro-line ratchets from the 90s. I am a very heavy DIY user. To say Craftsman is inadequate for such purposes is ridiculous. I have never broken even one of their sockets or wrenches. But I do not do stupid things with them. More importantly, even in the rust belt where I live and regularly working on suspension, I do not have them slip or fail when used *properly* even in challenging applications. To say any competent mechanic cannot do work with Craftsman (or most any mid tier brand) without rounding fasteners or busting knuckles is ridiculous. 90s Craftsman were rebranded Dahmer production made by the same company that provided Matco in that period. The pro Craftsman ratchets and Matco ratchets as well as the Craftsman pro wrenches and Matco wrenches from that period are identical outside of the labels. I do not think Pro mechanics were struggling so mightily using Matco or other 2nd tier pro brands (at time usa production Mac, Cornwell, Proto, ....).

I have nothing against Snap-on and own some of their sockets in 1/4 drive (where fit matters more even). But I find they are hard to distinguish in use from my equivalent Craftsman sockets from that period. I can understand a pro being serviced by a tool truck wanting to buy Snap-on for that reason itself. But it not game changing.

If someone wants to buy Snap-on and does not mind the cost, fine. They are excellent tools. But you certainly pay for the brand and the tool truck service. But it is in no way necessary to use Snap-on to work effectively. I would also add that Icon and the Craftman pro lines from the 90s are also very similar in terms of quality. USA Craftsman pro lines were probably a better value for what you got at the time though relative to Taiwanese Icon today.

 

[mikey03]

Compared to Snapon which requires me to request a shipping label, wait for them to email it, print out the label, pack the tool up (not always simple for bigger items), drop it off at UPS, and wait for them to send me a replacement. 5-7 business day turnaround on the three items I’ve warrantied.

it ***** but I can’t blame them for it. Snap on tools are so expensive and such good resale value on eBay if they did the Tekton model it would be alot of fraud of a dozen people in the same neighborhood all sending in pictures of the same broken wrench to get a free one to sell on eBay.

but with Tekton if you scam them for a free wrench they sell for $20 by the time you list on eBay and pay fees and shipping you lose money.

snap on is really meant for pros who have a truck come once a week to their shop and can swap the broken part instantly. That’s why it’s so expensive for the service built in. You can say snap on corporate doesn’t pay the drivers for this, they do it for free yea true. But the drivers make money selling the tools and that means there a big enough markup on the tools for both snap on to make a profit and the independent driver to make a profit. If they sold direct and cut out drivers they could lower the price by whatever profit they let the drivers make.

the reason when you buy direct they charge the same high price is not to undercut the drivers. so if you buy direct snap on corporate makes double the profit since they make whatever the driver would make too.

so your really overpaying if you don’t got a driver since you pay more for less service. But also if your not a pro then it’s less likely you will brake the tool anyway.

i like the resale value I can always resell a snap on tool but I can’t resell a Quinn socket tbh

 

[kngelv]

As I’ve aged I’ve focused more on quality because my time is more valuable than anything else. HF is good for warranty convenience but they are very limited as far as selection. No 12 points in Icon for example. I just took a driveshaft off of a 1997 Ford Ranger and it was either a 12 point socket or box wrench. I have plenty of old Craftsman sockets and wrenches that I rarely use. I have been on a bit of a Koken kick the past few years and their 3/8 ratchets in a 1/4 body have saved my *** a few times. Great sockets too. Super sweet to use in the tight confines of newer engine bays. I like the Proto ASD wrenches. I think Snap-On are great but they are pricey. I think today Tekton are probably the best of the decent tools vs cost. They have a very comprehensive lineup and none of their tools are made in China. They do make some USA stuff in house and also source from Europe, Canada and Taiwan. Super warranty, great customer service and you get 10% cash back on all purchases. I recently bought one of their boxes made by Rousseau in Canada and used some points I earned on some of their laser cut USA crowfoot wrenches.

James

 

[Hakeem]

it ***** but I can’t blame them for it. Snap on tools are so expensive and such good resale value on eBay if they did the Tekton model it would be alot of fraud of a dozen people in the same neighborhood all sending in pictures of the same broken wrench to get a free one to sell on eBay.

but with Tekton if you scam them for a free wrench they sell for $20 by the time you list on eBay and pay fees and shipping you lose money.

snap on is really meant for pros who have a truck come once a week to their shop and can swap the broken part instantly. That’s why it’s so expensive for the service built in. You can say snap on corporate doesn’t pay the drivers for this, they do it for free yea true. But the drivers make money selling the tools and that means there a big enough markup on the tools for both snap on to make a profit and the independent driver to make a profit. If they sold direct and cut out drivers they could lower the price by whatever profit they let the drivers make.

the reason when you buy direct they charge the same high price is not to undercut the drivers. so if you buy direct snap on corporate makes double the profit since they make whatever the driver would make too.

so your really overpaying if you don’t got a driver since you pay more for less service. But also if your not a pro then it’s less likely you will brake the tool anyway.

i like the resale value I can always resell a snap on tool but I can’t resell a Quinn socket tbh

Having to

 

[308guru]

Y'all got expensive tastes...
Between my dad and myself, we've built and maintained two airplanes, a boat, and a shop, and maintained the houses and family vehicles, with mostly 80s and 90s Craftsman and various HF gear and a smattering of power tool brands. No Snapon or other high end stuff. But we're not busting tools or destroying fasteners...

As with any item or hobby, you should probably expect to find people discussing higher end items when you're hanging out in a forum of people very interested in it. Not many people get together to talk about the cheap **** they have.

 

[BWWgarage]

Any dealers you have used?
... CAT will ship, so find a dealer in Kansas with 20% off...you're good to go. The will bill you shipping that looks dumb, but its

 

[Zewnten]

CAT will ship, so find a dealer in Kansas with 20% off...you're good to go. The will bill you shipping that looks dumb, but its the sales tax, which they don't charge tacked on to the shipping fee (I think someone explained).

The of 10-19mm shallows...is like $60. 3/8-3/4 SAE is like $32..thats before the 20% off. I mean if you don't buy that as an apprenctice/novice...you'd be crazy. Even just those two single sets, and nothing else. But I'd get the hex, torx, and 1/4 drive deeps in both sae+metric at least. The 3p plier, the 5p hard handles, 5/8 square shank flat to, etc all no-brainers for an Apprentice toolkit, if you had nothing just an empty box...

I've not heartd the heat treat *****, I'd kind of be suprised if that's true.

There is a, as in singular, CAT dealer for Kansas and western Missouri. Ordering parts from another state makes no sense compared to ordering Proto that's the essentially the same priceonce shipping is figured. Unless you're saying CAT sockets are better than Proto?

In my experience Proto is higher quality. The CAT sockets all deformed enough to have fairly bad chrome peel on the hex side of the socket, but these were in use on CAT shops and CAT bolts are hard hard and very tight.

 

[Zewnten]

Cat Snap-On sockets have a lifetime warranty through Cat.

Through CAT corporate yes. If you don't want to be cooling your heels for however long that takes then you better have your receipt of the purchase or you're not getting it warrantied. Or again I can have a new tool in less than a week.

 

[CoThG]

There is a, as in singular, CAT dealer for Kansas and western Missouri. Ordering parts from another state makes no sense compared to ordering Proto that's the essentially the same priceonce shipping is figured. Unless you're saying CAT sockets are better than Proto?

My Cat chrome sockets are rebranded Snap-On.

 

[Zewnten]

My Cat chrome sockets are rebranded Snap-On.

Based on? Yes they have similar stampings but these nothing that says it goes through the same process. If you're saying that Snap On is better than Proto then I'm not going to argue because that's entirely subjective and you have too much feeling ******* in it.

 

[CoThG]

Through CAT corporate yes. If you don't want to be cooling your heels for however long that takes then you better have your receipt of the purchase or you're not getting it warrantied. Or again I can have a new tool in less than a week.

My local Cat dealer in Ohio told me if I ever have an issue with one of their tools, to just bring the tool to them and they'll swap it out if they have it in stock, and if not, their warehouse is in the same town and can get it the next day. No receipt needed as I'm already in the Cat system as the purchaser.

 

[CoThG]

Based on? Yes they have similar stampings but these nothing that says it goes through the same process. If you're saying that Snap On is better than Proto then I'm not going to argue because that's entirely subjective and you have too much feeling ******* in it.

Right back at you. What do you base your claim that they are not genuine Snap-On quality, minus the SO markings? Way too expensive and too much corporate "face" to lose if Cat sold lesser quality sockets. Since those sockets are intended for use by Cat techs working on Cat heavy equipment, they would be subject to hard use and any lesser quality steps that some claim SO omitted in making the Cat sockets would be evident. I have no feelings ******* either way. My SO dealer has talked to SO corporate about it and he tells me SO acknowledges they are the same, minus the roll mark.

 

[mikey03]

As with any item or hobby, you should probably expect to find people discussing higher end items when you're hanging out in a forum of people very interested in it. Not many people get together to talk about the cheap **** they have.

Have you been to the harbor freight subreddit

 

[CoThG]

Have you been to the harbor freight subreddit

But... It's just as good as...

 

[mngundog]

Based on? Yes they have similar stampings but these nothing that says it goes through the same process. If you're saying that Snap On is better than Proto then I'm not going to argue because that's entirely subjective and you have too much feeling ******* in it.

Yes, Cat contacted Snap-on to see if they'd be willing to make an inferior socket at a premium price for Cat's mechanics, makes total sense.

 

[T45]

There is a, as in singular, CAT dealer for Kansas and western Missouri. Ordering parts from another state makes no sense compared to ordering Proto that's the essentially the same priceonce shipping is figured. Unless you're saying CAT sockets are better than Proto?

In my experience Proto is higher quality. The CAT sockets all deformed enough to have fairly bad chrome peel on the hex side of the socket, but these were in use on CAT shops and CAT bolts are hard hard and very tight.

This is not correct. The locals are all afilliated under regional distributor. Its the same in every region, ours included. We have tow regional distributors, ethey each cover the better part of a state with 5-6 locals in total easily (or whatever, I don't count them). Also our distirbor (thus also the local) had the 20% off for black friday to christmas and isn't doing this special deal, but just because he's not doing this isn't a problem I can still order directly from a participating dealer as mentioned above.

 

[richfinn]

Hmmm. Did your Husky set include triple squares? What about swivel torx? What about the 17mm allen drain plug? I had one of these cars. Mine was a 2009. Something is wrong with this story.

This may be a good example of my post above. EVERY SINGLE job I did on my GTI pushed me and my tools to their limits. This car is one of the reasons my socket drawer looks like this:

Spend a minute and look at what specifically is in here. Allens and ball ends in different lengths, swivel torx, std and long torx, short and std length triple squares, all were essential to service this vehicle. I'm no @CoThG. Everything here was bought for some job. There's some degree of pain wrapped around each set. Not 100% sure, but I suspect some of these tools are only available from Snap on. Icon doesn't make all this stuff.

And it wasn't like I needed these once in a while. They were more or less needed for every job. If the work you did was oil changes, yeah, got it, Husky sockets would be fine.



Pretty sure this was the PCV valve. I recall that not being too tricky. Took this pic for you guys who are amateurs like me to show the advantages of a roll cart. This was a beautiful day to work outside.


Here, I was replacing one of the head lights. Whole front valance needed to come off. Nothing easy about this. Note favorite ratcheting screwdriver and POS Dodge Durango in background.

To my point, sure, working on an old German car? Buy a junky set of tools that includes tools you don't need and it's missing its price X2 of tools you do need? Hard pass.

Really good chance you will need a socket drawer that looks more like mine than not. I have sets where a VW mechanic would just have a few sizes. The devil in car repairs is in the details. HumbleMechanic has plenty of videos about tools you need to fix VWs. A husky set wouldn't cut it.

Not trying to call any out. It's just...there's more to this story than we are hearing. And posts like this one fit a narrative on GJ. But it's not necessarily a narrative other people can follow to maintain their vehicles. To be clear, you may not need Snap on hex sockets at all, but you absolutely will need decent Torx and triple squares out of the gate. A 300pc mechanic set wouldn't get you much past oil changes in this vehicle.

Edit: I think my pictures are beautiful above. And I'm thinking about my own narrative. In general, I think I make everything a bit more complicated than maybe it needs to be. I see complexity everywhere and seek the best tool, where others might just use pliers (I almost never use pliers). My actual reality of car repair looks more like this:


Filthy, uncomfortable, get up too fast and I'm dizzy, tired, frustrated, just trying to get this job done. My tools are my attempt to bring order to the chaos, advantage where I feel up against it. I think this picture better describes my 40yrs of car repair. Note filthy garage floor (I'm replacing this).

You can absolutely work on VW/Audi without Snap-On tools, there are thousands of mechanics all over Europe doing exactly that.

 

[AEAdam]

You can absolutely work on VW/Audi without Snap-On tools, there are thousands of mechanics all over Europe doing exactly that.

Hi Rich. Sorry for the US centric response.

Over here, not every tool seller offers triple squares, or ball allens. You might be able to find the VW 17mm drain allen here, but it may not be easy. Snap on, tho expensive, is fairly easy for us.

I feel like I could have found a brick and mortar store in the UK where one could buy Hazet tools for example. Pretty sure that’s not the case here. Europe has better availability of tools needed to fix European vehicles. Even at places like Halfords. I thought parts were fairly reasonable as was labor.

Apologies for the parochial generality

 

[impactims]

So here is my experience for others like me who may have some extra money: for regular wrenching with chrome buy the Snap-Ons up front (eBay has them). Start with the basics like mine and add if needed.

Similar experience here.

Starting out I went cheap thinking “I’m not a seasoned professional, I can just go cheap!!!!”…….yeah right!!! So I ended up buying Stanley, craftsman….department store stuff.

Go all USA made Snap on/mac/cornwell from the get go. Going cheap will only set you back.

I ended up replacing everything I bought in the beginning in short order.

Then years later, tools became a hobby. A collection if you will. I don’t know if this has been talked about here, but commonly, once you get into using high quality tools, the tools become something of interest beyond their intended use. I am no exception. Tools are fun to collect and use. Most around here would agree, I think. Especially those that go for top of the line USA made tools. There is something about them that draws you in.