Bench Lathe Advice

[Fretters]

If you are a 'newbie' to turning work, learning on a lathe which doesn't work well is serious frustration.

[...]

If you really mean to learn turning work, a good accurate lathe, on which you may rely, is essential. A highly experienced turner can readily 'work around' the problems of a worn lathe, but you shouldn't have to, as a 'newbie'....learning to do good turn work with a known good lathe is your practical option.

Frustrating it can be, but in all honesty, this is one of those rare occasions where I'd actually say the complete opposite in relation to your advice. Learning on a clunker of a machine can actually do a world of good, as it makes you learn to improvise, work around limitations, make sure that tooling is kept keen etc., and it also has the side benefit that it's not so gutting if there's a little incident like running the slide into the chuck or suchlike. Going from a less than perfect machine to a good one is a pleasure, but someone who learns on a 'perfect' machine is likely in the **** if they need to use a lesser machine at any point, as they can't always readily adapt. I'm one for learning the hard way and learning well. I suppose it all depends on how much of a masochist one is though, as to whether to take the easy or hard route.

 

[JoeFin]

Every time this question comes up there are those whose first response is to label the Harbor Freight equipment as junk. What they fail to realize is that the most important piece of equipment when it comes to machining is your brain.

I've shown these before, they were all made on HF "junk". You be the judge. These are running engines made from bar stock.

Yes and every time some one holds up some "Soft Metal Sculpture" with .050" tolerances they have polished and sanded by hand to create another shiny object to set on the shelf I can't help but think to myself "Oui Vey"

Yes it is Very Good work - but the world is not purely comprised of model engines that humans don't have to depend on.

On my way to the company party right now - but if you like I'll post some pictures of Helicopter parts in the morning

 

[Fretters]

Yes and every time some one holds up some "Soft Metal Sculpture" with .050" tolerances they have polished and sanded by hand to create another shiny object to set on the shelf I can't help but think to myself "Oui Vey"

Yes it is Very Good work - but the world is not purely comprised of model engines that humans don't have to depend on.

On my way to the company party right now - but if you like I'll post some pictures of Helicopter parts in the morning

That point works both ways though. You obviously need absolute precision in your work, (or as close as is possible), and some people don't. The door swings both ways. There is no one rule which fits all.

 

[Troutsqueezer]

Yes and every time some one holds up some "Soft Metal Sculpture" with .050" tolerances they have polished and sanded by hand to create another shiny object to set on the shelf I can't help but think to myself "Oui Vey"

Yes it is Very Good work - but the world is not purely comprised of model engines that humans don't have to depend on.

On my way to the company party right now - but if you like I'll post some pictures of Helicopter parts in the morning

So, the only machines that are not junk are those that can spin things that human lives depend on. Another day where I learn something new.

Are we responding to the same original post where he asked about lathes from sellers who mostly sell the incarnations of the Sieg brand? I doubt if he plans on jumping right into tolerances of .0001".

If I held to .050" tolerance, these engines would not run. Typical tolerance is .001", certainly achievable with HF equipment. Does the gear set on the hit and miss gas engine look like .050" tolerance to you?

Soft metal, apparently another criteria distinguishing junk from real machines. Just because the brass and polished aluminum catches your eye doesn't mean there isn't drill rod steel and cold rolled in those engines too. Flywheels on the gas model and twin, steel. Crankshafts, steel.

You know not about that which you criticize.

 

[Adam.C]

Yes and every time some one holds up some "Soft Metal Sculpture" with .050" tolerances they have polished and sanded by hand to create another shiny object to set on the shelf I can't help but think to myself "Oui Vey"

Yes it is Very Good work - but the world is not purely comprised of model engines that humans don't have to depend on.

On my way to the company party right now - but if you like I'll post some pictures of Helicopter parts in the morning

This is rudely put but I think I understand the sentiment, having suggesting something slightly similar earlier myself. Debate rages on about these machines for good reason. They have real design "issues". Better machines than those used to make Dennis' models above are available from Sieg/HF/Grizzly etc. But these are sometimes more expensive than full size used 'merican 'arn. Thus more debate.

I think this discussion (which I've read many times before) is REALLY about the sense of "starter" equipment, i.e. does it make sense to buy low cost or entry level equipment to learn on and later "graduate" to more professional grade stuff?

Here's my take: if you can reasonably determine what the end game looks like- "I'm only going to turn brass, up to 12" long" or "I want to machine cylinder heads some day", then it's probably best to go for that equipment from the get go.

If you really don't no where your machining is going to take you, then entry level equipment can be a good idea. But my advice is, admit that going in. If you are buying entry level gear, think of the disposal factor. Are you going to lose your shirt selling it? I sold my Sieg X2 for a third of what I had in it (it was heavily modded). So my milling education cost me about $600-$800 and 3 years. If you are okay with that, great.

Had I to do it all over again (and I do), I think I would choose an old South Bend "heavy 10" and a Bridgeport mill or Rockwell 21-100. These are very easy to sell. If you buy one right, clean it up, you can actually make money selling it (neglecting labor).

The other big issue is the size of machine tools and the logistics surrounding moving them. That's where the mini machines really shine. BUT: If you love machining but don't feel you have the space (maybe just a corner of a basement or garage), you may well be frustrated by your mini machines. Full sized machines look so much more massive, but in reality, the space they take up really isn't much more than a table top machine.

Last word- the fixed column long table Sieg SX2 from littlemachineshop.com is a uniquely great little machine. It is perhaps the best (or only) for its size/price. Ditto for their comparable lathe. (8X14?). But, as Joe rightly says, these machines can't honestly do much with steel. The price of one step up in mini-machines rivals used full sized machines, are this is really where the arguments start.

 

[Alchymist]

Anothe good site:
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/forum.php

 

[Troutsqueezer]

Anothe good site:
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/forum.php

I posted there for years.

Big iron in any reasonable condition does not come up for sale very often around these parts. And as Adam said, it is not moved easily. Even the tooling for a Bridgeport can weigh hundreds of pounds. It is overkill for a hobby shop IMO (if that is what the poster is interested in).

I recommend the OP buy whatever he can afford. The main gist of my post was to refute claims that Sieg is junk when, in fact, it is just the opposite. It requires you to learn the intricacies of the machining trade on a level that won't kill your pocket book. You don't build a gas engine from scratch without knowing the properties of metals and how they interact or how to hold to a tight tolerance or how to turn steel into chips on a smaller machine. These machines take smaller bites and thus more time. To me, that's just how I want it. I'll leave production to those in the trade.

The Sieg milling machine uses R8 collets which can be ported over to something larger if one wishes to upgrade after determining the hobby is worth staying in. Most machinists who start out with Sieg keep their machines as they move up for those quickie parts they might need.

I know people who think that unless you are working with CnC machines, whatever you have is junk. So it is all relative.

 

[JoeFin]

Soft metal, apparently another criteria distinguishing junk from real machines. Just because the brass and polished aluminum catches your eye doesn't mean there isn't drill rod steel and cold rolled in those engines too. Flywheels on the gas model and twin, steel. Crankshafts, steel.

You know not about that which you criticize.

Don't get me wrong Troutsqueezer

Your work is very good and has earned its own respect. But I've see those machines hands on and can only commend you on your patience and tolerance to reach an .001" tolerance.

My limited experience was you would turn the dial - cut - then measure again to see how much it actually removed. And that would be cutting a comparatively softer alloy

If you lived closer by I would invite you over to give my machines a whirl (actually you don't live too far away and you should come by when you get a chance)

A night and day experience setting the dial to cut .010" and actually cutting .010" A Night and Day difference in chucking up Prehardened 316 SS and getting a No.7 finish from a carbide insert or like the Chromemolly being turned in my profile picture

Or dropping a program into a CNC mill full of radiuses, champfers 3D elevations, Drill Holes, Slots and holding a .0002" through out the entire work piece without ever changing set-ups or work-holding fixtures - again Night and Day

Not to diminish your skills - which are substantial

But your working at the limits of that tiny machine - so where do you go from there ?

 

[Troutsqueezer]

I head out the back door of the shed and jump on my tractor which is what I enjoy doing the most. After a career stuck in a cubicle, sitting on my kubota is exactly where I need to be. Truth be told, the batteries in all my calipers are dead from lack of use.

 

[Fretters]

I'm on both sides of the camp with regards to small and larger lathes. I've started cleaning one of the larger ones up today in preparation for reassembling it, so decided to take some photo's of some of the bits in the shed to emphasise the point which some of the chaps try to put across, (generally in a poorly worded and slightly condescending fashion, might I add, in a nice manner ), regarding the larger lathes and the differences from smaller machines, even though they may only be slightly larger on centre height. (Centre height is half of the swing size, to use your terminology. I'll stick to the American terminology for the rest of the post, but these are classed as 4" and 5" machines over here). This is a photo of an 8" machine, (the Roundbed over on the left), sat next to some of the parts from a 10" machine. It's emphasises just what difference there is in build and size for a machine which is only 2" larger in swing.

As you can see, the topslide alone is larger than the saddle on the Roundbed. You can partially see the saddle for the 10" machine stood on end, nestled in that sheet to the right. The green thing behind the oil containers is another saddle for the same type of 10" machine. These are both Drummond machines. When some try putting the point across about larger lathes, it is a very valid point. The rigidity, size etc. are worlds apart, but that still doesn't alter the fact that both are very capable machines in the right hands. Both small and larger machines have their place, and the choice of which to purchase and use is purely down to the user.

 

[CRH]

Listen to the wisdom above!!!

South Bend, South Bend, South Bend! They are awesome. Same with Sheldon, which seem actually beefier and more industrial, but much harder to find parts for. I am new to machining, having started with no experience just under 4 years ago. That said, It is absolutely rewarding and exciting!

These old American (and European) manual machines are extremely beautiful, full of history, and in well-worn shape still beat any of the modern import mill-drills or 3-in-one machines, in my humble opinion. Remember, though, that I speak as an amateur machinist who still has lots to learn. I do enjoy machining simple things like chuck keys, bushings or small threaded parts, but I'm not doing super precision stuff.

It is scary and humbling at first, but soon you will be ADDICTED like...umm...me!

Get help on what to look for concerning wear on a used lathe. You definitely CAN find old lathes (and even milling machines) that are still in good shape. Not perfect, but obvious visible wear doesn't always mean the lead screw, half nuts, spindle bearings or even the ways are toast. Just make sure you check those important things.

I now have 2 Bridgeport mills, a 9" SB, a 13" SB and a 13" Sheldon. Talk about what a wannabe poser I am! But hey, I absolutely enjoy learning on and repairing them!