Bench Lathe Capabilities

[jamison]

You can only learn so much through reading and research, so I was thinking about purchasing a cheap Chinese made metal bench lathe from an undetermined store/manufacturer probably in the range of $600 to $800 and 7" x 16" size and about 1/2 a horsepower.

I want to ultimately buy a much larger CNC lathe far into the future, but I want to learn how to make items with the traditional manual controls first without relying on G-Code 100% in the future.

When thinking of small enough projects I could attempt, I thought about a large set of punches (pin, taper, center, etc). So, my question is, with proper quality tooling, accessories, and setup, would the lathe be powerful enough to cut tool steel (specific metal TBD)?

Any info would be awesome. I tried Google to get somewhere on this type of question but nothing will help as well as someone with years of experience or someone who has even potentially tried this project before.

Thank you!

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

I've thought about doing something similar ... but I'm a 1,000sf shop build away from having a place for it.

I don't want to discourage any of the expected great GJF answers, however ... have you considered going to this site with your question:

http://www.hobby-machinist.com/forum.php

 

[deere2210]

There are a lot more experienced tool/die/machinist guys on here that can give alot more detailed advice, but I went down the same path. Bought an Enco benchtop and then pulled the trigger and went CNC. The Enco benchtop was really just a big paperweight in my opinion. I'd recommend looking for a used Southbend.. They are available and have rigidity. I ran into a problem with my Enco in that it sheared a gear welded to a shaft.. Called Enco and they don't stock replacement parts and said it would take a month to get an answer back from China on whether they could or would make a replacement. That was the end for me on the Enco.

 

[zkling]

"Power" is not a real useful term in lathes. What you care about is rigidity and thus how deep of a cut you can take.

Can a small lathe cut tool steel? yes. Can it take a 0.25" depth of cut in tool steel. I wouldn't

The smaller the lathe the smaller the cut it will take, otherwise it will flex and start to shake violently. Bad news all around.

For the home shop a CNC lathe is very far down on the list. Just not nearly as handy as a CNC mill and a standard lathe.

Depending on your budget I would look for a used (but not worn out check this link http://www.mermac.com/advicenew.html) South bend, Clausing, Logan, Monarch, etc bench lathe. Look for something with power feeds and a full threading gear box. A 9" south bend will do quite a bit of work. I currently run a 10" south bend bench lathe and a 15" clausing. The south bend is used much more than the clausing. Just handy for making pins and the like. I reserve the clausing for the big heavy work and rifle barrel work.

If you are set on a new lathe, grizzly makes some nice stuff for the money.

I personally would avoid the craftsman and atlas 6" lathes. Not nearly as rigid and thus useful as a south bend or other full on lathe.

 

[kmacht]

I would second the suggestion of getting a used southbend 9" lathe. They will be far more capable than the 7x10,12,14, or 16 lathes. I had a 7x12 from Grizzly at one point. The drive gears inside the head were plastic. I'm not 100% sure but if I remember correctly the change gears for theading were also plastic. If you took took deep of a cut in steel you would break the gear in the headstock.

For $600 to $700 you should be able to find a good southend on craigslist. If you really are set on buying new instead of used then at least look at the 9x19 lathe that grizzly sells.

Keith

 

[gloveman132]

Yes, the lathe would do what you are asking, you would be limited by the size of work that would fit in your chuck and the length of the bed and small cuts would be required.

I suggest you consider a South Bend, you could probably get a good quality machine for just a little more that you are looking to spend if you keep your eye on CL.

 

[jamison]

Great info, thanks. I'm not dead-set on new, but my one concern is repair costs if something were to go wrong shortly after the purchase.

I absolutely don't have the knowledge required to tackle potential lathe repairs, so if something broke inside a Southbend, are there any useful generalizations that can be made such as "you're screwed" or is it reasonable while obviously dependent on the severity? For example, German cars are much more expensive to repair compared to Asian cars.

 

[gloveman132]

A used South Bend is less likely to break and is more serviceable that anything made in China, in my opinion.

If you can build lego's, you can work on a South Bend.

 

[mattygee]

The OP didn't say where he lived; geographical location has a alot to do with the availability of used equipment. If he lives in, say, Las Vegas, he's not going to find a South Bend within 500 miles, and certainly not for 600-800 bucks.

 

[E.Marquez]

things to consider.... for any of the small bench top lathes, your limited to softer materials, and very light cuts and smallish parts... If your making brass bushings, aluminum spacers, derlen stepped washers... sure it'll work. just fine.

the other thing is tooling and accessories,, pretty much anything you buy for a small bench top lathe will not transfer over if you go larger / better later.. Tooling and accessories are an additional 2 to 10 times or more than the cost of the machine.

Measuring equipment... Mics, dial calipers, dial test, coaxial dial, dial indicators, inside mics, is a good investment either way,, as it works no matter the machine.

If you're set on an entry level machine,,, consider one of the bigger 3-1 from Smithy Buy in is more, but tooling, vices, clamps, rotary tables, spin indexer, and the like can be used on other "second" machines.

And I'll not say the mythical $900 9" southbend with tool rest, vice, ways that are not worn or trashed, power feed works, head stock bearings are not loose , rough, worn out, minimal backlash in x and y axis, minimal run out in a working 3 and 4 jaw chuck... is not out there... but I have not seen one for sale within 1000 miles of me for the last 5 years of looking.... Same for the "cheap" bridgeport folks keep telling me I should buy......

Maybe in some parts of the country old serviceable, working machines grow on trees and sell for cheap, but not near me.

 

[Steve from Socal]

An older American made lathe like a South bend, Logan etc, will cost you perhaps a bit more than a new mini lathe but, the resale will be much better with the American lathe. In many cases you can buy a lathe, use it for a few years and sell it for more than you paid. As you may have read the machine is just the beginning; chucks, tool holders, cutting tools and, lots of measuring and set up tools are some of the extras needed to do meaningful work. Some of these things you may have or will keep after the machine is gone but, they make the lathe do work. Buying a rather complete package of lathe and tooling will be more up front but very likely less costly in the end.

Steve

 

[Richard D]

I've had those Chinese lathes, they are junk. I love my 9" Southbend.

 

[E.Marquez]

I've had those Chinese lathes, they are junk. I love my 9" Southbend.

Of course, the "machine" is junk, no one can use them at all
http://www.home-machine-shop.com/projects/


Or perhaps it is a lack of skill and knowledge of the user.

 

[sharkytm]

I picked up a 10x24 Logan on Cape Cod for $300. In the northeast, there are plenty of machines and prices aren't awful. You just have to be very quick to act. I missed a Gorton mill for $600 recently... 10 minutes too late in calling.

 

[E.Marquez]

I picked up a 10x24 Logan on Cape Cod for $300. In the northeast, there are plenty of machines and prices aren't awful. You just have to be very quick to act. I missed a Gorton mill for $600 recently... 10 minutes too late in calling.

Great deal

In my part of Texas, the only used machines I have seen are WAY overpriced, and / or HUGE 3 phase power, 6-10,000lb machines used in the oil industry, or off a battle ship

 

[A_Pmech]

or off a battle ship

I like those kinds of machines. Mine came off a sub tender though.

 

[kmacht]

You can buy just about any part for a southbend lathe if something does break. A quick search of e-bay for the part will usually turn it up. There are also some good yahoo groups as well as a forum on practicalmachinist.com that will get you in the right direction if you have to make a repair.

Like someone else said, your location will have alot to do with what you can find and what price you are going to pay. I live in the northeast and was able to find my southbend with a ton of tooling plus all the other parts to another southbend minus the actual bed for $750. My bridgeport I picked up for $900 including some tooling and a large 15" powered rotary table. Keep an eye on not only craigslist and ebay but also local ads for machinery or business auctions. My mill was from a plastic injection molding company that went out of business.

Keith

 

[E.Marquez]

I live in the northeast and was able to find my southbend with a ton of tooling plus all the other parts to another southbend minus the actual bed for $750. My bridgeport I picked up for $900 including some tooling and a large 15" powered rotary table.
Keith

Just so we are clear......YOU ****

 

[kevin47]

CNC...? Are you sure you don't really mean NC...?

 

[kevin47]

Just so we are clear......YOU ****

You'll need a powered rotary table like you need another hole in your head lol

 

[kevin47]

Southbend lathes are for hobbist's...Believe me, they are NOT professional equipment...I should know I own two 9 " & 13" ...Don't get me wrong...There's a lot you can do on one...But, making real money is not one of them...They will not take a heavy cut...A must if you intend on earning a buck...

 

[Kevin54]

Depending on what you plan on doing is relevant as to what you need to buy. So far you are starting at one extreme and going to jump to the other extreme. Shop around for a brand name and stay away from the HF junk out there. That doesn't mean to not buy anything Chinese, but like anything, there are real low end junk and ones a little better quality. Myself, I bought a JET 14 x 40 lathe, but I bought new. I couldn't find anything in the price range I wanted that was any good.

One other thing to consider....what would benefit you more, a lathe or a mill? With a lathe, you are limited to round things. With a mill, it is way more versatile. Most people will use a mill 10:1. I think I've used my belt sander more than I've used my lathe.

 

[SM Racing]

http://machinetoolonline.com/PM-1127-VF.html

I was talking to a fellow yesterday about one of these machines. He said he has had it for several years and it works very well. It is still a bench top machine, I am looking for a smaller machine to make spacers and bushings, etc as the 16in Reed Prentice I am using now is just WAY too big. Its hard to deal with the Massive chuck. I keep wanting to buy a used American machine, but I am so leary of getting some machine and it being yet another worn out piece of junk for a lot of money.

I see the Southbends, Logans, etc. Around here anything less than a grand will work, but won't hold a tolerance and won't come with all the change gears. At least with the larger Taiwan Machines, you can get parts and will be able to for years to come. With Logan, Reed Prentice, etc I am not seeing a lot of parts available, plus you have to hunt around a dozen different places. At least with a Taiwan Machine I know it is getting on a boat and coming across the sea to my door.

I use a lathe a lot making race car and off road parts, the Mill is nice for bolt patterns in round parts, or boring holes and such, but I don't use it nearly as much.


If I could afford to buy a already finished one, I would spring for a Monarch 10EE, but that is really big money for me right now.

 

[kmacht]

You'll need a powered rotary table like you need another hole in your head lol

Absolutely true. I have yet to do a project with it where it required a powered rotary table. The mill didn't have a DRO only an old trav-a-dialy system. When I get around to it I am probably going to sell the rotary table and put the money towards the DRO.

Something to think about if you are going to buy a lathe larger than one of those 7 by x machines. As you go bigger they get exponentially heavier. The southbend I bought had the motor and countershaft mounted under a steel metal cabinet. I had to disassemble most of the lathe in order to get it light enough to unload from my trailer. The lathe in the link SMRacing posted is 650lbs. You aren't going to just lift that up and move it into place.

Keith

 

[Kevin54]

I had a small Atlas/Craftsman that I sold. It was a nice little lathe but had a little slop. For me, it was too small. The JET I bought was in my price range, but it leaves a little to be desired. I wish it was a quick change when it comes to speeds, but unfortunately I have to swap this to that and move that to here to get there. It's not bad, but just not like a quick change if that was what one was used to. As far as precision, it's a hell of a lathe. I've ran a few parts off of it and with either a larger diameter with multiple cuts, or a long part chucked up on centers, it's dead nuts on.

I do have to apologize though. I was thinking the lathe was a 14 x 40, but I just pulled out the paperwork and it's a 13 x 40. Even though the lathe sets on it's own stand with doors on both sides, it's still classified as a Bench lathe. But it still threads, so that is good. Plus it doesn't have a large footprint. Maybe 6' long, 2' deep, and maybe a little less than 4' tall.

 

[James-W]

I have read this entire thread over three times now and I keep thinking the opening poster is someone who is basically in the same boat as I am in. What I mean by that is, we both want to play around with a lathe and make stuff just to see if we can do it and have a little fun in the process. We aren't going to be running a business where we make parts race cars or anything like that. In fact, we aren't going to be doing ANY custom jobs for people. Our use of the lathe is more of a hobby than it is anything else. At least that is how I am interpreting what the opening poster wants to do with the lathe, for now. He says that someday he wants to get something bigger and better, but that is far into the future.

I am not against buying equipment on Ebay or on Craigslist, but I have noticed many times where the seller seems to think what he/she has to sell is worth a small fortune. I can't really argue with the dollar amount the seller thinks the item is worth, but I can certainly pass on buying the item if I feel the price is way out of line.

Another thing is, why is the person selling the equipment? Now in the case of a lathe, I guess the reason could be the seller wants to buy a larger one, or maybe buy a lathe with more features. That could certainly be the reason, but I tend to think in a lot of cases the main reason is because the lathe has a lot of hours on it and basically it is worn out and would cost a lot of money to put it back its original condition. So rather than spend a lot of money on repairing the lathe, the owner figures to sell it for as much as possible and then buy a new one. I am not saying this is always the case, but I would not be surprised if this was the case more times than not.

In my opinion, a brand new Chinese lathe is a better value than an old worn out ..[insert the brand of your choice here]… and you will get you better service from it. I am not saying Chinese lathes are a great value, I am just saying I believe they are a better value than what an old worn out lathe is. I am quite certain a big name brand lathe can be repaired and put back into excellent condition again, but at what cost? When you consider buying the lathe, having it shipped to where you live, taking it apart and figuring out everything that is worn, then ordering the necessary parts and replacing them, I have my doubts it is worth it.

Now, if you can find a used lathe that isn't worn out, and you can get it for a decent price, then that's great, you should probably do it. But depending on where you are located, you may not be able to find anything even close to you. You certainly would want to go there and look at it and try it out before you buy it. I know I would want to do that so I have to think others would want to do the same.

Anyway, I gave you my opinion for what it is worth. I wish you all the best and when you finally take the plunge, I hope you get a lathe you like and that you get many years of trouble-free service from it.

 

[kazlx]

A lathe is like any other tool (for me, at least). You are happy with what you got for a while, then there is always that project(s) that is just out of reach. I have an 11" Logan that I got a couple years ago. It's great, fits nicely in the garage and I've made plenty of stuff with it...from the completely pointless to stuff that's actually useful. I paid $1500 for it and it was pretty clean and plenty tooled up, although I've added quite a few things as I've gone.

Now, I'm looking around at 14-17" swing machines with speed controls, foot brakes, etc. I like using the lathe, but IMO unless you have a hobby just building miniature engines or something, a smaller lathe isn't very useful. When I started shopping I new I at least wanted a South Bend or Logan because parts were easily available, lots of info on them and they are simple. After having it for a few years, I can definitely see myself taking advantage of a larger lathe.

My Bridgeport mill was free (I actually made money on the deal) and I'm very happy with it, even though it's basic (no PF or DRO). I'm still learning how to use it, but I'm glad I found a full-size mill. I looked for quite a bit and even considered the smaller Clausing types and actually almost bought one, but always knew I'd probably regret buying something smaller. Obviously, with space restrictions, or other variables there are other things to consider, but otherwise, you won't regret buying a bigger machine.

IMO, The older iron has pretty much depreciated to the bottom. If you buy something nice and take care of it, you can always sell it to the next guy that's in your shoes for what you pay for it (or close) when you step up....

 

[Steve from Socal]

The original poster wanted advise on buying a lathe to learn on, a HF lathe would work and, perhaps that IS his best choice? From my point of view it would be an acceptable choice but, only one choice. Many people are afraid of buying a worn out machine as a beginner, I understand the issue, that is really what makes the market for the cheap imports. Problem with the imports is they are as much a **** shoot, you could get a good one, you could get a lump of junk.

As far as a South Bend or other small belt driven lathe being a production machine, nobody here made that claim. I do think it is wise to learn on a flat belt machine with limited power because it will stall in most cases before it kills you.

The older lathe were school machines for the most part and learning the steps from the SB book(how to run a lathe) are well documented for a new user. They are not great lathes but, they are great trainers.

Steve

 

[racingtadpole]

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, I ignored all the advice of people around me and bought a Chinese made Frejoth lathe that has a 3" chuck swings 4" from centre over the bed and has a bed length of around 2'. Did a lot of people laugh at me, yes really hard. Did I flog the **** out of it learning how to do basic manual turning, yes I did. Did I break it, yes I did. Did I fix it yes I did. Do I still have it, yes I do. Do I like it, you bet I do.

Ive turned up everything from replacement wobble heads for G clamps to prototype disc brake conversions for BMC minis.

Buy the machine, learn how to use it, and learn the skills. The single most important thing a small machine will teach you is patience....

 

[APEowner]

Cheap tools bug the heck out of me but I believe that learning on an underpowered lathe with low rigidity will teach you more about proper tooling prep. , feeds and speeds and setup than anything else. I can make the same parts on my 1915 FE Reed lathe at home as I can on the big Le Blond @ work but it takes longer at home and I can't get lazy with setup.

 

[Steinmetz]

"...The single most important thing a small machine will teach you is patience....".

Yes. Also some degree of ingenuity to get it to do things that are not straightforward.

 

[desert_mx]

I just went through the same decision making you are a few months ago. If you go the import way, make sure you choose a seller that will offer some support, such as Grizzly, Precision Matthews, Lathemaster, don't go the Harbor Freight way. Call the supplier, you'll find out quick what level of support you can expect. I went with a little larger lathe and got the PM1127, and Matt will work with you if you have any problems. So far no complaints with the lathe, and I'm still learning. Tooling is another story, again you'll need to decide domestic or import, carbide or HSS, etc. I'm sure you already looked, but there a some really good websites on the mini lathes. I also suggest that before you spend a lot of money on learning material get the MIT videos, Tubal Cain videos, and the Army TC 9-524 manual, they're all free. Good luck on your endeavor, you'll soon be looking for things to lathe just for the heck of it.

I should also mention that if you go with the import expect to wait for shipments.

 

[Kevin54]

Here is where I bought my JET Lathe http://www.tools-plus.com/ Very decent people to work with. After discussing what I wanted as far as a lathe, we made the deal. I even had a little marked off just for going with them. And they are the type of company that if you send them an e-mail, you can expect a reply back within the hour. Or if you need to speak with them on the phone, you can speak with the first or second in command, or you will be routed to a specialist in a particular department. Tools-Plus gets two thumbs up from me for sure.

 

[hh76]

Great info, thanks. I'm not dead-set on new, but my one concern is repair costs if something were to go wrong shortly after the purchase.

I absolutely don't have the knowledge required to tackle potential lathe repairs, so if something broke inside a Southbend, are there any useful generalizations that can be made such as "you're screwed" or is it reasonable while obviously dependent on the severity? For example, German cars are much more expensive to repair compared to Asian cars.

I just took apart and cleaned my SB 9", and I'd say that there really isn't all that much to worry about. With normal use, there aren't too many things that will completely fail, just ware. Great instructions available all over the web, pretty easy to work on, and from what I've seen so far, parts are easy to come by for decent prices.

Mine does have some ware (70yrs of use will do that), but not in too bad of shape, and I got it for a couple hundred less than a new mini. It also came with everything I needed to run it, and much more.

 

[Cedge]

Sometimes, limited space, limited budget or lack of power source makes the Chinese bench tops the only viable option. That was where I began my journey. I shopped features versus price and wound up purchasing from Micromark. It didn't take much research to learn all Chinese machines were not equal. HF, Enco and others import these machines based on low price and therefore buy at the bottom end of the quality scale. Jet, Grizzly and Micromark chose to go a little higher on the scale and their products come with more features / tooling and the fit and finish is quite a bit higher than the budget guys.

That being said, any 7X## import lathe is going to need a bit of work to get it up to snuff. These machines are known as "Kit Machines" among the hobby machining community. This means you will need to dial things in and tighten them up a bit before you can really do much significant turning. It's not that difficult and there is plenty of information on the net to show you how. Replacement parts and upgrades are readily available.

The upside is that many have gone before you and they've documented innumerable modifications and improvements that can be made to increase performance and capabilities. By the time I had mine where I wanted it, I had increased the cross travel, added DRO's, motorized the carriage travel, added a larger chuck and dialed it all in enough to easily stay within .001 tolerances. I learned a LOT about the lathe and how to use it just by making it more accurate.

I built a lot of my tooling and eventually moved to making my own miniature engines on that 7x14 and enjoyed the whole journey. Today I'm still using Chinese machines, but upgraded to larger equipment to allow me to do even more. I still have the little Micromark lathe and use it for secondary work.

Old American iron is everyone's first choice, but there are times it can't be done. The Chinese machines fill that niche as long as you shop carefully.

Steve

 

[Mike_C]

I bought a HF 7x10 lathe over a year ago, and I have been happy with it. I just recently upgraded it to a 14" bed and quick change tool post.

I've turned steel on it more then anything else, with light cuts it does just fine.

These are some 3/4" pins I made to hang the dies for my tubing bender.

And the lathe is small enough to fit on the ledger running around my basement, so I did not need to build a bench for it.

If I need to turn something bigger, I can use the bridgeport lathe at work.But for some reason I find it hard to want to stick around after I clock out to work on my own personal projects.

 

[Richard D]

Another choice if you want something inexpensive, small(I literally used mine on a T.V. tray!) and made in the USA, check out Taig.
http://www.taigtools.com/

 

[sunsation288]

I am right now in the same boat than you , i am in touch with Matt for a PM1127 and a PM25MV mill , keep in mind i am a hobbyist , only time will tell me if i made the wrong choice ,

 

[sunsation288]

Anyway, I gave you my opinion for what it is worth. I wish you all the best and when you finally take the plunge, I hope you get a lathe you like and that you get many years of trouble-free service from it.

James i think all your thread you have it right

 

[jamison]

Thanks for all the info once again.

As some have pointed out, I'm interested in a simple manual lathe to learn on. I want to improve it, make it more accurate, turn things using manual controls, so when I do have the free cash to step up to a large CNC lathe years/decades from now (my dreams regularly feature a Haas dual spindle), I have the knowledge to go along with the cash even if it all just comes down to my proficiency to write a program, I'll know what's going on even without the gcode.

For now, I'm going to wait until August and set my budget around $1,000 for everything needed to get up and running on a few projects that don't require great accuracy, like a few small metal ashtrays for the people unfortunate enough to still smoke in my family. I;ll look at Grizzly 7x12 and at the overall used market for my first choices with Harbor Freight as a backup plan. Although, I do find the HF 7 x 10 tempting at $400 on sale w/ coupon and the opportunity to return it if something goes wrong within 90 days.

Also, I do realize a mill is much more useful in terms of capabilities, but for some reason I'm drawn to the lathe and really think I'll have fun learning on that first. This doesn't mean I won't buy several mills in my lifetime as I certainly plan on doing so, but I'm doing this all as step 1 into hands-on machining and its 100% hobby. I will have met all of my goals if I have the skills and cash to fabricate a custom car about 30 years from now on a CNC lathe and CNC mill. This will never be my actual profession as I already have a separate career on track and I'll be using that career to fund better machines.