Best Blowtorch?

[Moose-LandTran]

Ok, Peeps, here's the deal - where i work we don't have oxy-acetylene and this presents me with a problem when it comes to heating stuff. (Who'da thunk it?)

I don't know what's required to get oxy-acetylene nor am i prepared to pay that cost or deal with whatever paperwork is needed, so i'm looking into blowtorches as a lesser solution. We have some crappy homeowner type thing at work that's good for.. warming stuff up, very slowly.

I'm clueless about this stuff but what i want is the best blowtorch/gas combo that i can with the hottest burning gas. I've looked at Rothenberger and Bernzomatic stuff but really don't know what it all is, nor do i understand the different types of gases.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
-Moose.

 

[Hiball]

If i was Working on Cars Professionally i would look into one of these, Less chance of damaging nearby parts. Of course im speculating that your not buying a torch for Cutting, Brazing etc..

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47670&highlight=Induction+heater

 

[Sterff]

It all depends what your looking to do and how much you want to spend. I have a Lenox 21170LS10 which I use for soldering and light heating. It spins 360* and works with small propane tanks. For gas I use propane. I don't think mapp gas is worth the extra cost. At work we use acetylene b tanks for general soldering.

 

[Moose-LandTran]

If i was Working on Cars Professionally i would look into one of these, Less chance of damaging nearby parts. Of course im speculating that your not buying a torch for Cutting, Brazing etc..

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47670&highlight=Induction+heater

I'd like one, but the cost is waaaay out of my price range for something i don't need all that often.

It all depends what your looking to do and how much you want to spend. I have a Lenox 21170LS10 which I use for soldering and light heating. It spins 360* and works with small propane tanks. For gas I use propane. I don't think mapp gas is worth the extra cost. At work we use acetylene b tanks for general soldering.

What sort of difference in heat is there between mapp and propane or acetylene? I only really need this to heat nuts and stuff until they glow, will a blowtorch be capable of this?

 

[tonydanzah]

you want a mapp torch, you can get stuff red hot very fast, quickly bend metal or use brazeing rod.

 

[A_Pmech]

Moose, you need a Port -A-Torch.

 

[Hiball]

Moose, you need a Port -A-Torch.

Arent those Little tanks Pricey to Exchange? If i recall it was cheaper for me to Lifetime Lease my tanks from my local welding Supply. Moose if you think $500 is too much for a Induction heater, your gonna be well into that with Tanks, Regulator, Hose and Torch w/heads. Check with your Local Welding shop for Deals etc...

 

[Moose-LandTran]

Arent those Little tanks Pricey to Exchange? If i recall it was cheaper for me to Lifetime Lease my tanks from my local welding Supply. Moose if you think $500 is too much for a Induction heater, your gonna be well into that with Tanks, Regulator, Hose and Torch w/heads. Check with your Local Welding shop for Deals etc...

Well, the oxy-acetylene torch set i was looking at is like £250. Add regulators, flashback arrestors, hoses, tanks, cart, etc and that'd be £1,000-ish. I'm thinking <£100.

Rothenberger torch + Mapp gas?

 

[snapmom]

My mother in law.

 

[A_Pmech]

Arent those Little tanks Pricey to Exchange?

Depends on who you do business with. The local outfit charges just for the gas in the cylinders if you own them.

Moose, you should be able to get a complete Port-A-Torch outfit for about $400, ready to go.

 

[Moose-LandTran]

Moose, you should be able to get a complete Port-A-Torch outfit for about $400, ready to go.

I don't know the regs on getting oxy-acetylene over here but i understand they're somewhat more "restricted" than on your side of the pond.

$400 is still out of my budget. This isn't something that will see a great deal of use so i'm not looking to spend much on it. If a blowtorch will do the job then i'll take that over an oxy-acetylene setup until i have a grand to burn.

 

[MattT]

Moose,

Go ask what a small oxy tank will run you. If that isn't out of sight it might not cost all that much to build an oxy propane rig if you buy used gear. IME the benefits of adding oxy are well worth the price compared to fuel air torches.

 

[MrMark]

Mapp doesn't burn much hotter than propane. I was surprised as a Mapp user when I was recently directed to the Berzomatic link.

I think the concensus before was oxy/propane was a good setup.

 

[tonydanzah]

Its not so much the mapp gas itself. Its more of that the mapp torch tip has the swirling nozzle. It mixes the mapp and oxygen as it leaves the torch resulting in a much hotter flame vs you just using a mapp tank with a standard propane nozzle.

For occasional use of a budget like he is talking about a mapp self igniting head with an adjustable and mapp gas would be the way to go. Its quick to set up, cooling down very fast for storage. And if you find you need more heat I just use a second mapp torch at the same time.

 

[srmofo]

This is a practical guideline, many variables can change temps, these temps are for a gas/oxy torch so gas/air temps will probably be different

* 2200°C = 3992°F, for Propane/Oxygen
* 2927°C = 5300°F, for MAPP Gas/Oxygen
* 2700°C = 4892°F, for Acetylene/Oxygen
* 3200°C = 5792°F, for Hydrogen/Oxygen

I thought oxy/act was around 5800f, but maybe I was wrong.

I knew it was hotter than proppane. Ive never seen anything glow from propane. Ive gotten mapp to glow but usually takes around 4-5mins, and oxy/act takes about 20 secs

found this little gem while searching the temp, didnt know that

On 31 April 2008 the Petromont Varennes plant closed its methylacetylene/propadiene plant. As they were the only North American plant making MAPP gas, indeed the only legal supplier of trademarked MAPP gas in the world, this caused a widescale shortage, and many substitutes were introduced by the companies who had repackaged the Dow and Varennes product(s) - most of these substitutes are propylene, like MAP//Pro [1] from BernzOmatic, some are mixtures with higher hydrocarbons or with other ingredients like acetone. Many of these work just about acceptably in gas/air torches, but none work as well as MAPP in gas/oxygen torches.

 

[MrMark]

Its not so much the mapp gas itself. Its more of that the mapp torch tip has the swirling nozzle. It mixes the mapp and oxygen as it leaves the torch resulting in a much hotter flame vs you just using a mapp tank with a standard propane nozzle.

For occasional use of a budget like he is talking about a mapp self igniting head with an adjustable and mapp gas would be the way to go. Its quick to set up, cooling down very fast for storage. And if you find you need more heat I just use a second mapp torch at the same time.

I have the Mapp setup of which you speak. I use it to solder copper up to 1". The swirl heads are available for propane as well as I understand it. When I looked at the numbers that showed Mapp and Propane (with air as the fuel, not oxygen) that were so similar, I believe they were both established using swirl tips.

 

[MrMark]

http://www.bernzomatic.com/RESOURCES/GASTYPES/tabid/222/Default.aspx

Butane Propane Max Power Propylene
Flame Temperature in Oxygen (ºF) 4,925 4,579 5,193
Flame Temperature in Air (ºF) 3,200 3,450 3,600
Burning Velocity in Oxygen (Ft/Sec) 11.0 12.2 15.0
Total Heating Value (BTU/CuFt) 3,374 2,498 2,371
Primary Combustion Heating Value (BTU/CuFt) 315 255 433

 

[MattT]

Ive never seen anything glow from propane. Ive gotten mapp to glow but usually takes around 4-5mins, and oxy/act takes about 20 secs

Are you comparing propane, and mapp, air against oxy propane. I haven't had a problem making things glow with any oxy/fuel torch and I've used them all including hydrogen.

 

[metal1313]

i use a mapp tank with a 6ft long flex hose. the hose makes it much easier to use, and to get into tight spots

 

[srmofo]

Are you comparing propane, and mapp, air against oxy propane. I haven't had a problem making things glow with any oxy/fuel torch and I've used them all including hydrogen.

Yes, I was comparing a propane or mapp tank vs a oxy/fuel setup. Oxygen adds a whole new level to what hot means. I should of made that a little clearer, sorry.

But the OP doesnt want to spend that kinda money on a seldom used tool. Cant say I blame him

 

[bgott]

These things aren't cheap but you might find one on ebay. You might also be able to build your own.

http://www.google.com/#q=induction+...&resnum=2&ved=0CDgQqwQwAQ&fp=782711885fffb0c2

http://www.automotivetoolsonline.co...Ductor-II-Inductive-Heating-Unit_p_15318.html

 

[srmofo]

Just thought about something. what about an old gasoline blowtorch. I know they still use them in developing countries where propane isnt readily available. Does anyone still manufacture them? How hot does their flame get?

Dont think I would be lighting it in my kitchen but you get the point

 

[danski0224]

MAPP gas does burn hotter than propane. Yes, torch tips make a difference. If you have a plain old consumer grade MAPP torch tip, try a professional grade tip.

The next step up would be an air-acetylene torch set up, otherwise known here as a "b tank" or "mc tank".

The "b" and "mc" refer to the size of the cylinders. Because you can draw the acetylene only so fast out of a cylinder, the mc tanks are limited to small size tips.

You can also buy torch tip setups that run off a typical LP gas grill tank.

I had no trouble getting a 5/8" round steel bar red hot with a #8 air-acetylene tip on a b tank. Yes, it took a while.

If you don't like what you have, and don't want to invest in a oxygen-acetylene setup, the air-acetylene setup is in the middle.

A basic b tank torch handle, fuel hose, regulator and #5 tip runs about $250 US, plus the fuel cylinder. Self-igniting tips (piezo ignitor) cost more. The gas cylinder is about $120 US for the first tank "deposit" and full of fuel gas. Then they are exchanged when empty for about $20 US.

You do not have any control over the size of the flame with one of these b tank setups. The bigger the tip, the bigger the fire. Depending on where you are aiming it, that could be a problem.

 

[Jononon]

I don't know the regs on getting oxy-acetylene over here but i understand they're somewhat more "restricted" than on your side of the pond.

Not really. Your place of business has to do a fire risk assessment and you're required to "eliminate, substitute or reduce the risks as far as reasonably practical" - obviously it's 'reasonable' to use O/A in a garage environment - but other than that you're good to go.

http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/Documents/Acetylene_Leaflet.pdf

 

[DeadSock]

I have a set similar to this ..
http://www.harborfreight.com/small-welding-torch-kit-3687.html
(I recall mine was <$50 and adjusters on the bottle not at the torch)

nice for a small brazing job, and will get into tight spaces easier than a full OA torch.

The 1lb cylinders will get spendy if doing much work.

 

[DeadSock]

this is more similar to the set I have
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002JM8AO/?tag=atomicindus08-20

(The HF unit is actually probably better ...)

 

[MrMark]

MAPP gas does burn hotter than propane. Yes, torch tips make a difference. If you have a plain old consumer grade MAPP torch tip, try a professional grade tip.

The next step up would be an air-acetylene torch set up, otherwise known here as a "b tank" or "mc tank".

The "b" and "mc" refer to the size of the cylinders. Because you can draw the acetylene only so fast out of a cylinder, the mc tanks are limited to small size tips.

You can also buy torch tip setups that run off a typical LP gas grill tank.

I had no trouble getting a 5/8" round steel bar red hot with a #8 air-acetylene tip on a b tank. Yes, it took a while.

If you don't like what you have, and don't want to invest in a oxygen-acetylene setup, the air-acetylene setup is in the middle.

A basic b tank torch handle, fuel hose, regulator and #5 tip runs about $250 US, plus the fuel cylinder. Self-igniting tips (piezo ignitor) cost more. The gas cylinder is about $120 US for the first tank "deposit" and full of fuel gas. Then they are exchanged when empty for about $20 US.

You do not have any control over the size of the flame with one of these b tank setups. The bigger the tip, the bigger the fire. Depending on where you are aiming it, that could be a problem.

If what you say is true, and I used to think it was, please explain why the Benzomatic numbers on the link I posted do not support your claim that MAPP burns significantly hotter than propane. How am I reading that chart wrong?

 

[danski0224]

If what you say is true, and I used to think it was, please explain why the Benzomatic numbers on the link I posted do not support your claim that MAPP burns significantly hotter than propane. How am I reading that chart wrong?

Sez here that MAPP burns ~2000*F hotter than straight propane: http://www.ehow.com/about_6655001_mapp-gas-vs_-propane-gas.html

 

[MrMark]

Sez here that MAPP burns ~2000*F hotter than straight propane: http://www.ehow.com/about_6655001_mapp-gas-vs_-propane-gas.html

So EHOW is more accurate than Benzomatic, who actually makes and sells the products? No comment on what I posted?

http://www.bernzomatic.com/RESOURCES/GASTYPES/tabid/222/Default.aspx

http://www.bernzomatic.com/products/fuel.aspx


Maybe you are thinking of something else? Maybe MAPP is not max power propyelene?

All I know is that the stuff in the yellow can at Home Depot and other stores that I used to think was a much better (hotter) torch is not.

 

[MattT]

Sez here that MAPP burns ~2000*F hotter than straight propane: http://www.ehow.com/about_6655001_mapp-gas-vs_-propane-gas.html

They're probably comparing propane/air against MAPP/oxy to get that 2000F number which isn't a fair comparison. Comparing air to air or oxy to oxy MAPP is a bit hotter than propane. Barely noticeable with air but more obvious with oxy. The Bernzomatic link Mark posted looks to be about right.

For general heating it's hard to justify the additional cost of MAPP.

 

[Alaric.H]

This one is OK

 

[Moose-LandTran]

Not really. Your place of business has to do a fire risk assessment and you're required to "eliminate, substitute or reduce the risks as far as reasonably practical" - obviously it's 'reasonable' to use O/A in a garage environment - but other than that you're good to go.

http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/Documents/Acetylene_Leaflet.pdf

Interesting.. Didn't know that. I assume you're not allowed it for "home" use then?

Will have to read up on this more.

I think i'll just buy a Bernzomatic/Rothenberger kit with whatever gas comes with it or MAPP gas. Not so worried about the price difference in gas since this won't get used much anyway and it'll last plenty long enough.

Thanks, guys.

 

[ZRX61]

I don't know the regs on getting oxy-acetylene over here but i understand they're somewhat more "restricted" than on your side of the pond.

In the US you drive to the PraxAir shop & buy whatever you want, never been asked for any "papers"

 

[rodm1]

Buy a torch set and get a LP tank for your grill. Then rent a oxy tank when needed.

 

[Jononon]

Interesting.. Didn't know that. I assume you're not allowed it for "home" use then?

You can legally use it at home, too, although how pleased your insurer will be with this plan is debatable and BOC may be reluctant to set up an account without business details (although if you pretend to be a plumber working from home, how will they know?)

 

[danski0224]

So EHOW is more accurate than Benzomatic, who actually makes and sells the products? No comment on what I posted?

http://www.bernzomatic.com/RESOURCES/GASTYPES/tabid/222/Default.aspx

http://www.bernzomatic.com/products/fuel.aspx


Maybe you are thinking of something else? Maybe MAPP is not max power propyelene?

All I know is that the stuff in the yellow can at Home Depot and other stores that I used to think was a much better (hotter) torch is not.

Got me.

I don't use MAPP, either. If it really is only a couple hundred degrees hotter according to the links, that might be good for cast copper ball valve bodies.

I like the typical propane torch for small jobs (a joint or two, up to 3/4"). Everything else, I get the air acetylene setup.

Oh, and I really don't like those Fat Boy bottles.

I did look at the links above this time.

 

[Lippyp]

I'm intending at some point to go oxy/propane as I liberated a 47KG Calor propane bottle from a ditch a few years back so just need to rent an oxygen bottle and but the hoses etc. I have a propane blowtorch and it takes a good while to get any real heat into anything of any thickness.

 

[IONH]

I've had a pair of tanks for the oxy acetalyne which my dad got me probably 5 years ago sitting here. He always had hopes of me cutting things up with it. Yeah, little strange for a dad to want his son to do that, but I work on cars as a hobby and have done some pretty extreme things over the years.

Anyway, I still haven't touched it. Got a set of tips and all, tanks are (or at least were) full. I should really do that sometime soon but it intimidates me a bit!

Right now I just use a mapp gas torch. I like the idea of that inductive heater to avoid burning things in the area, especially on older cars which have a bit of oil grime in the area.

 

[Moose-LandTran]

In the US you drive to the PraxAir shop & buy whatever you want, never been asked for any "papers"

That's what i mean. You go to a gas supplier and buy gas. As far as i knew you needed extra **** here.

You can legally use it at home, too, although how pleased your insurer will be with this plan is debatable and BOC may be reluctant to set up an account without business details (although if you pretend to be a plumber working from home, how will they know?)

Well that i didn't know. Have you set up an account? Any idea what's involved? (Need a registered business or any of that ****?) i may have to look into this more seriously in the new year. WWS Weldability make a very nice kit.