Best heating method for 40x54 shop

[370]

Ok so here's the deal. I'm getting my ducks in a row to start construction on a new shop (sharing the current shop with family *****!)

So this building will be 12" block walls. With 13-16' ceilings. Peope ask me why 12" block and I have 2 answers for them
1. Better insulation both in air space and/or in available room for spray foam or poured type.
2. I bought 3300 block for pennies on the dollar when a commercial building was planned but never happened. (I ended up rewith 3300 custom color block, 9000 brick, bundles of durawall ladder wire, a cube of 2" pink foam as well as mortar tubs, water barrels, and other stuff from this building that never was
SO that's out of the way

I live in NW Indiana (think Chicago weather) temps in the winter ranges from 50° for mild winters (like last year) to -20 in cold years. So I need something that can handle - temps. Sometimes for a month or more at a time. Couple winters back we were below 0 for like 15 days straight. My initial plan was radiant. But I'm open to anything really. As far as fuel type. I have natural gas service to the house already. So that's an option. With the high ceilings my thinking was radiant floor and ceiling fans. Obviously I'm interested in cost efficiency like everyone else in the world is. I like the idea of mini splits being that I could heat and cool however with the filtration issues with mini splits I don't know if that would be a good option for me as this building is going to be used mainly for metal work, auto work/restoration/fabrication etc. So grinder dust and plasma dust probably aren't to friendly to a mini split filter. I've tossed around the idea of forced air heat either ducted or a hanging furnace. The current shop has 2 hanging units but I'm not really all that impressed with them. Any ideas? Suggestions? If I do radiant it would most likely be a natural gas fired boiler or a natural gas water heater (I'd prefer tankless), for forced air heat i'm thinking ducted along the ceiling (up draft furnace) and out the furnace in the compressor room so it doesn't pull much vapor from the shop space and again ceiling fans to get that heat back down from the high ceilings.

 

[walrus]

I'd do radiant . Although yesterday I was pulling wires to a shop that has radiant where doors open a lot. The shop temp doesn't recover for **** so they are putting 4 huge electrical heaters . Electric because it's an electric utility. So if your doors are going to be open a lot beware .........

 

[370]

I don't see my doors being open alot during the winter months. The doors are going to be on the 54' side. In facr one complete side of the building is going to be doors. 2 - 16' x 12' and 1 - 12' x 12'. But I don't see any reason to ever have to open more than 1 at a time. And not for long periods of time.

 

[lazer50]

Im down here near richmond indiana. 40 by 60 14 ft ceilings finished inside steel siding.i blew in the best insulation available and am insulated well.im at the heat stage also ive gone 3 winters with a salamander i can run it 20 minutes and its warm and thermostat shuts off that in frigid temps.i know it gets worse where you are but i think im going with a hanging gas unit since i have available.

 

[dave89iroc]

in floor is good, but a worry if you plan on hoists down the road

if you have good ceiling height, I'd go with a radiant tube system, they put out good heat, and heat the floor and other surfaces, so temps come back quick after opening a door

 

[BillK]

370,
If you plan on leaving the heat on and are not worried about quick warm up time, then I would think the radiant would be the way to go. Otherwise gas fired hanging heater.

One thing I will suggest is filling the block for sure. The last building we were leasing before I bought my present location had filled block and it was really inexpensive to heat. Not sure what they used but it was a real fine granular fill.

 

[Elginz]

In floor radiant. One thing about it is the noise, there is none, and the breeze from forced air, there is none, dust affecting the heating equipment, it won't. All you will be is warm, and it could be zoned, no idea how that would work for you but it could be.

 

[370]

in floor is good, but a worry if you plan on hoists down the road

if you have good ceiling height, I'd go with a radiant tube system, they put out good heat, and heat the floor and other surfaces, so temps come back quick after opening a door

Already decided how that's gonna play out. A guy aeoud the corner has radiant and js planning a rack. What he did was draw out a map with all the measurements to all the tubing. And he left areas with no PEX for the rack. Thats all documented on his "floor map". I planned on doing the same i'm gonna set it up for 2 lifts but I'll honestly only do one unless I score a killer deal on a second.

 

[370]

370,
If you plan on leaving the heat on and are not worried about quick warm up time, then I would think the radiant would be the way to go. Otherwise gas fired hanging heater.

One thing I will suggest is filling the block for sure. The last building we were leasing before I bought my present location had filled block and it was really inexpensive to heat. Not sure what they used but it was a real fine granular fill.

I'm a union bricklayer so I've seen a few ways to insualte block walls. I'm good with either spray foam or granular. I plan on running all my electric surface mounted in conduit for expansion and ease of modification so there's not problem with filling cells with insulation good to hear that it kept your costs down. That was my intention as well

 

[370]

In floor radiant. One thing about it is the noise, there is none, and the breeze from forced air, there is none, dust affecting the heating equipment, it won't. All you will be is warm, and it could be zoned, no idea how that would work for you but it could be.

The plan is a 40x40 "shop" and a 14x40 heated storage area with a lower ceiling and a loft above it. (Probably do scissor trusses over the loft) so I could totally zone the storage area to be 45-50° while the rest is 55-60° the plan isn't just heat but climate control. Will be keeping the building at constant temperature all winter. You mention the fan and dust. That makes me think about something else. No forced air means nothing to blow shielding gas away during welding. Which would be nice. The current shop furnace blows air right at the work bench. Sucms for TIG welding.

 

[370]

in floor is good, but a worry if you plan on hoists down the road

if you have good ceiling height, I'd go with a radiant tube system, they put out good heat, and heat the floor and other surfaces, so temps come back quick after opening a door

I will look into a hanging radiant tube. If nothing else it might be a good back up for times when the door needs to be opened.

 

[Shop Specialties]

In floor radiant is the way to go. Less BTU required, no wind blowing around, silent, etc. If it is designed and installed properly you will have no issues with recovery after the doors open/close.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I live in NW Indiana (think Chicago weather) temps in the winter ranges from 50° for mild winters (like last year) to -20 in cold years. So I need something that can handle - temps. Sometimes for a month or more at a time. Couple winters back we were below 0 for like 15 days straight. My initial plan was radiant.

Radiant is great, but the cost on a big building is significant ! At a minimum, you want a vapor barrier and 2" or rigid foam under the floor.

I like the idea of mini splits being that I could heat and cool however with the filtration issues with mini splits I don't know if that would be a good option for me as this building is going to be used mainly for metal work, auto work/restoration/fabrication etc. So grinder dust and plasma dust probably aren't to friendly to a mini split filter.

That is a valid concern, A building that size is likely to require 2 compressors and 6 (or 8?) air handlers, each with their own filter.

If cooling IS a priority, or it you are going to have office space that needs it own thermostat, mini-splits are the way to go ! not the cheapest installation and you need to be careful about purchasing ones that are capable of producing heat below zero (Mitsubishi HyperHeat) ! I would back them up in the open area with gas radiant tube heaters in the open areas.

I've tossed around the idea of forced air heat either ducted or a hanging furnace.

By far, the cheapest installation and a very low cost of operation WITHOUT A/C.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Im down here near richmond indiana. 40 by 60 14 ft ceilings finished inside steel siding.i blew in the best insulation available and am insulated well.

"You pay for insulation once, you pay for heating and cooling fuel eveytime the thermostat calls for it !"

 

[zmotorsports]

I have worked on shops that have had radiant overhead heating and overhead forced air heating and to be honest I prefer the forced air heating other than the noise of the fan(s).

If the shop is constantly being held to a certain temperature then overhead radiant heat would probably be my choice (if cost wasn't a major concern), however, if you are like many of the shops I have worked in and turn the temperatures down in the off ours then the forced air heater seems to recover more quickly and warms the air faster.

The overhead radiant seems to be comfortable if you are in direct line of sight from it but step under a vehicle on the lift or slightly behind a mill or piece of equipment where you are not in direct line with a heat tube and it is a completely different story.

In our maintenance shop in the winter my feet would always get cold and I would play hell getting them warm and by the time I did, my shift was over. When I worked in our Fleet shop with forced air heaters, even with the doors open intermittently bringing OTR trucks in and out, I did not experience the cold feet nearly like I did in our overhead radiant heated maintenance shop.

Now that our maintenance shop is a 24/7 operation and the heat is on continuous when I am in there it seems better than years prior where we would kick the heat up from high 40's (overnight) to mid-60's during the daytime to work. I definitely prefer the quiet of the overhead radiant heat though compared to the fan noise of a forced air heater but that is about all. I agree with as much insulation up front and pay for it once as others have mentioned.

Mike.

 

[370]

Radiant is great, but the cost on a big building is significant ! At a minimum, you want a vapor barrier and 2" or rigid foam under the floor.


That is a valid concern, A building that size is likely to require 2 compressors and 6 (or 8?) air handlers, each with their own filter.

If cooling IS a priority, or it you are going to have office space that needs it own thermostat, mini-splits are the way to go ! not the cheapest installation and you need to be careful about purchasing ones that are capable of producing heat below zero (Mitsubishi HyperHeat) ! I would back them up in the open area with gas radiant tube heaters in the open areas.


By far, the cheapest installation and a very low cost of operation WITHOUT A/C.

I planned on the 2" insulation and vapor barrier under the floor. That 2" pink board is pricey stuff!! I had 25 sheets of it but put 15 sheets in my crawl space to insuate the house better. Now I wish I would have waited.. but I have 10 sheets to put toward the concrete pad. Really isn't any hearing source for a 40x54 going to be a significant expense? Ha-ha. The plan is constant temperature late fall through early spring.
For cooling I already have one very large window unit i used for my house when my central air went out and I waited to fix it til my kitchen remodel, i was just planning on picking up another

As far as forced air goes. I'm worried about the monthly bill for heating that shop with forced air heat. I would think the radiant floor would be more efficient then a regular old ducted furnace right? I'm pretty much decided I don't want to donhangig heaters like a hot dawg. Current shop has them in the don't seem to evenly heat, are very noisy and a ducted furnace to me just seems like a better option for even heat and honestly probably cost less than a couple of hanging furnaces

 

[370]

"You pay for insulation once, you pay for heating and cooling fuel eveytime the thermostat calls for it !"

I agree. That's why I'm going to insulate every cell that's not grouted and plan on blowing in copious amounts of insulation above the ceiling. I'll probably have to do batts where the scissor trusses will be over the 14x40 lofted area. .

 

[theoldwizard1]

I planned on the 2" insulation and vapor barrier under the floor. That 2" pink board is pricey stuff!!

Search the 'net for reclaimed polyisocyanurate insulation board.

Really isn't any hearing source for a 40x54 going to be a significant expense?

There is expensive and then there is EXPENSIVE !

The plan is constant temperature late fall through early spring. For cooling I already have one very large window unit i used for my house when my central air went out and I waited to fix it til my kitchen remodel, i was just planning on picking up another.

So you really don't care about cooling, correct ? 2 big window units aren't going to do much in a 90+ summer day in NW Indiana. They will run up your electric bill.

As far as forced air goes. I'm worried about the monthly bill for heating that shop with forced air heat. I would think the radiant floor would be more efficient then a regular old ducted furnace right?

I have no data that says that a gas fired boiler and a radiant heat floor are (significantly) more efficient than any kind of gas forced air. The big benefit of radiant heat is comfort and stability.

 

[370]

Well the window units are 220v units rated for 1000sq ft each. There would be 1600sq ft of shop space to cool. And the walls are gonna be block which tends to be cooler anyway. But no cooking to me really isn't a major issue. I'm used to working in a hot environment. I work on a coke battery most of the time.

How much do you figure a 40x54 will cost to do radiant flooring. Not including the 2" insulation and tubing in the slab. Most of the work I'll most likely do myself.

 

[walrus]

Already decided how that's gonna play out. A guy aeoud the corner has radiant and js planning a rack. What he did was draw out a map with all the measurements to all the tubing. And he left areas with no PEX for the rack. Thats all documented on his "floor map". I planned on doing the same i'm gonna set it up for 2 lifts but I'll honestly only do one unless I score a killer deal on a second.

That's what I did, took pics and then hard drive crashed so wasn't exactly sure where my spots for lift were. But I hired a guy with thermal imaging camera and he found them exactly. I left 3 ft by 3ft spots about 10 ft apart. Drilled the floor with no issues

 

[370]

That's what I did, took pics and then hard drive crashed so wasn't exactly sure where my spots for lift were. But I hired a guy with thermal imaging camera and he found them exactly. I left 3 ft by 3ft spots about 10 ft apart. Drilled the floor with no issues

I'll make sure to have hard copies as well as a computer copy. I'll make a bunch because I'm sure to loose just one!

 

[walrus]

I'll make sure to have hard copies as well as a computer copy. I'll make a bunch because I'm sure to loose just one!

Good idea, I knew approx as I had posted one pic on here and it was still here. I marked the floor where I thought, he came with camera and you could see the tubing and my marks were about a ft off. Cost 125 bucks to get him there but it was worth it

 

[370]

Heck yeah! Much better than drilling into a tube!

 

[Shop Specialties]

I had one customer weld bolts to the rebar where the hoists were going. I was impressed, they were dead on and he just lowered the hoists over the bolts and tightened the nuts.

 

[Peter Mc Mahon]

I am also trying to decide upon heat. My shop is only 24 x 41 with 11' ceilings and my hvac guy [a friend] said go radiant overhead. I mentioned my last shop was radiant overhead and that the recovery was not the best when I had doors opened. He said to way overdo the size of the system as it will heat the shop very quickly and recover very quickly. This is his suggestion since I will not keep it heated, only on weekends and the occasional evening.

 

[370]

I had one customer weld bolts to the rebar where the hoists were going. I was impressed, they were dead on and he just lowered the hoists over the bolts and tightened the nuts.

That would be awesome IF I knew exactly what lift I wanted. However. I don't. So I'm just going to leave room in the floor. I'm also thinking of that area left unpexed (like my new word) digging it deeper so the concrete was 6-8" deep right there.

 

[theoldwizard1]

... my hvac guy [a friend] said go radiant overhead. I mentioned my last shop was radiant overhead and that the recovery was not the best when I had doors opened.

Radiant in-floor heating is UNQUESTIONABLE the most comfortable heat. It has poor recovery after a large door is open and the only way to combat that is suspended forced air furnace near the door.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Well, if you have the access to it, the means, ability and time to cut, wood heat is cheap.


If you're a union bricklayer, does than mean you are laying the block yourself ?

If, after you fill the block and don't have enough insulation, you could attach 2x4s to the outside, fill the gaps with some 1.5" foam and cover it with some metal siding.

 

[truckman5000]

A BTU an hour..is just that. The reason radiant is cheaper to run, is it takes along time to heat up the concrete. It turn uses less BTU an hour to run to keep a slab hot....in turn you always have to keep it warm. So, it depends on if your in the garage 100% of the time or not.

You have gas, check out local incentives if any/ same with the ductless heat pump.
Hang 2- FHA units 8 ft above the slab and call it good.

 

[Shop Specialties]

Radiant in-floor heating is UNQUESTIONABLE the most comfortable heat. It has poor recovery after a large door is open and the only way to combat that is suspended forced air furnace near the door.

If it is properly designed and installed there is no poor recovery. A forced air furnace is heating the air, radiant in floor does not heat the air it heats objects.
Open and closing the door will not **** out all heat from the entire slab.

 

[370]

Well, if you have the access to it, the means, ability and time to cut, wood heat is cheap.


If you're a union bricklayer, does than mean you are laying the block yourself ?

If, after you fill the block and don't have enough insulation, you could attach 2x4s to the outside, fill the gaps with some 1.5" foam and cover it with some metal siding.

Wood heat is pretty tough to keep a building a constant temperature 24/7 through the winter.

Yes I'm a union bricklayer and I will be laying the block. I'll probably have a few bricklayer buddies come help out. In fact I'm gonna do the block, roof framing, electrical, interior finishing and probably heating all myself. I'm gonna farm out the concrete and sheeting the roof. I could totally sheet the roof myself but I really just don't care too.

As far as 2x4 framing and metal siding on the outside. I don't understand why in the world someone would do that. This is all.colored block and I have 9000 brick to accent it. The metal siding to me is ugly in comparison. I'm sure a 12" block filled with insulation will be more than sufficient. Block afterall doesn't dent, scratch, rust, or sun fade. And the wind will never blow it off. Steel is great for a roof. But for walls I avoid steel sheeting like the plague. Worst thing we ever did on the current shop was steel siding.
I'm a pretty handy guy. I did alot of the work on the current shop at my parents after the fire destroyed the last building. I did all the framing, electrical , interior finishing, trench work, hearing natural gas piping etc etc. Just didn't do the sheeting.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Open and closing the door will not **** out all heat from the entire slab.

I understand that, but is a large shop with high ceilings the mass of air above that floor does take time to recover.

 

[370]

Is a 40x54 considered a large shop?

 

[Jackfre]

Two Rinnai EX38C's. Modulate from 13,200-38,000btu on gas and fan. Programmable stat built in. 2.5" hole for supplied vent up to 9.5" thick wall. Sounds like you would have to get the longer optional vent due to wall thickness. Heat at floor level. Cool to the touch. Self diagnostic. Exceedingly reliable. Easy to clean.

 

[Shop Specialties]

I understand that, but is a large shop with high ceilings the mass of air above that floor does take time to recover.

With radiant in floor you do not heat the air.

 

[Shop Specialties]

Is a 40x54 considered a large shop?

To the average guy who has a shop at home it is probably considered to be on the large side.

 

[370]

Damn.. i'm afraid I'm gonna fill it. I have enough block for a 40x80 but the county will only let me build a 40x54.

 

[zmotorsports]

Damn.. i'm afraid I'm gonna fill it. I have enough block for a 40x80 but the county will only let me build a 40x54.

That is still what I would consider a large shop.

Mike.

 

[pinkerton]

I have worked on shops that have had radiant overhead heating and overhead forced air heating and to be honest I prefer the forced air heating other than the noise of the fan(s).

If the shop is constantly being held to a certain temperature then overhead radiant heat would probably be my choice (if cost wasn't a major concern), however, if you are like many of the shops I have worked in and turn the temperatures down in the off ours then the forced air heater seems to recover more quickly and warms the air faster.

The overhead radiant seems to be comfortable if you are in direct line of sight from it but step under a vehicle on the lift or slightly behind a mill or piece of equipment where you are not in direct line with a heat tube and it is a completely different story.

In our maintenance shop in the winter my feet would always get cold and I would play hell getting them warm and by the time I did, my shift was over. When I worked in our Fleet shop with forced air heaters, even with the doors open intermittently bringing OTR trucks in and out, I did not experience the cold feet nearly like I did in our overhead radiant heated maintenance shop.

Now that our maintenance shop is a 24/7 operation and the heat is on continuous when I am in there it seems better than years prior where we would kick the heat up from high 40's (overnight) to mid-60's during the daytime to work. I definitely prefer the quiet of the overhead radiant heat though compared to the fan noise of a forced air heater but that is about all. I agree with as much insulation up front and pay for it once as others have mentioned.

Mike.

This is exactly what should be considered - heat the "spot"(s) you're in the most with forced air or stoves. We do the same inside with a FP.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Wood heat is pretty tough to keep a building a constant temperature 24/7 through the winter.

Yes I'm a union bricklayer and I will be laying the block. I'll probably have a few bricklayer buddies come help out. In fact I'm gonna do the block, roof framing, electrical, interior finishing and probably heating all myself. I'm gonna farm out the concrete and sheeting the roof. I could totally sheet the roof myself but I really just don't care too.

As far as 2x4 framing and metal siding on the outside. I don't understand why in the world someone would do that. This is all.colored block and I have 9000 brick to accent it. The metal siding to me is ugly in comparison. I'm sure a 12" block filled with insulation will be more than sufficient. Block afterall doesn't dent, scratch, rust, or sun fade. And the wind will never blow it off. Steel is great for a roof. But for walls I avoid steel sheeting like the plague. Worst thing we ever did on the current shop was steel siding.
I'm a pretty handy guy. I did alot of the work on the current shop at my parents after the fire destroyed the last building. I did all the framing, electrical , interior finishing, trench work, hearing natural gas piping etc etc. Just didn't do the sheeting.

Metal siding love/hate is an opinion, mostly like everything else. My point was to give you more insulation if needed in the future if filling the blocks weren't enough. Also, it could be done rather than spray foaming the inside, which in my opinion looks bad unless it's covered.....not saying it won't work great.

If you have matching block and brick to accent it, then it all being coordinated makes it an even better deal than just buying it on the cheap. Congrats on a better deal that what I thought you got originally.

Keeping a constant temperature may not be as bad as you think, depending where you live and the length of your Winters. Adding a location to your profile will help other give a better idea of giving advice in the future. I heat my garage solely with wood during the Winter and early 2016, I bought a new wood stove, way, way more efficient than what I had.

The key is to get the concrete floor warm and for it to hold the temperature overnite or when you're not burning. Rarely, does my garage get below 50°F. When I fire up the stove in the morning, the temperature goes up 15-20 degrees in a short time. Start a fire, go back in grab a shower and eat some breakfast and it's nice out there. Since burning wood is a dry heat, it seems to burn off the moisture so condensation isn't an issue for me. While the new stove, duct work and associated cost might have set me back about a $1k, it'll be paid back in no time. I know what it cost to heat the house with fuel oil during the Winter.



Either way, I look forward to seeing some pictures of the build and you showing off your talents as a block layer. You guys are impressive to watch.