Best Phillips Bit

[mobiledynamics]

I don't use a Phillips bit for much of anything that requires torque (like driving into wood). Formerly Square Drive (and still have quite a stash) but most of my fasteners for wood these days is torx. Aside from some Oddball short sizes like 1" to secure a 1/4' panel, etc, that are in PH, most of my wood screws going up to 5/16 lags are torx

The most I'm ever using Phillips for is just screwing in the stock screws on electrical fixtures, auto panel screws or just the odds/ends. I do -appreciate a good bit. I have the 1" Wera bits, but I swear , there is something about the Wera PH2 bit in my Kraftform set, that I constantly and removing out of it's case to use.

Anyhow, let me hear it GJ gang. What is you better/best PH2 bit ? Doesn't need to be impact rated....as I'm not really using the PH2 that hard....

My driver/fastener bits are primarily Wiha and Wera, with a

 

[measuredtwice]

PB Swiss, Vessel, Montana Brand, Felo are pretty good. Lots of others too. Not a fan of Wera's standard Phillips but Wera's Aircraft and Reduced are good.

Best Phillips 2 Insert Bit --> https://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=424223

Top Row:
Wera 071011 (Czech) —Stainless
Wera 072072 (Czech)
Wera 134920 (Czech)
Wera 346281 (Czech)
Wera 135009 (Czech)
Wera 380156 (Czech)
Wera 056662 (Czech) —ACR
Snap-On SDM222IRB (USA) —ACR
Apex 440-2X (USA)
Apex 446-215 (USA)

Bottom Row:
Wiha 71102 (Vietnam)
Wiha 76502 (Vietnam)
Felo 10317 (Germany) —TIN
Felo 52471 (Germany) —TIN
Felo 30205 (Germany)
Vessel 2H (Japan)
PB Swiss C6-190.2 (Switzerland)
Montana Brand (USA)
Dewalt (China)
Generic (China)

 

[Iowafox]

This might sound kind of like a cheap option and it kind of is but I found out some of the best ones I found and have used besides old ones. Go to your local Walmart get a HART Bit set for $20. I am very very impressed with the Philips bits made by the same company that makes the Milwaukee bits. Best on the market probably not but I have used them hard remodeling houses and wood working products and they hold up damn well!

 

[plinker]

P2R bits have the best fit I've found for most #2 phillips screws, automotive screws in particular, though about any other phillips is a good fit as well. I have a supply of Vermont american bits, Cheap Irwin bits have held up ok. Other brands are available, Apex 446-2X looks interesting, have not bought any yet. https://www.zoro.com/apex-torsion-bit-sae-14-hex-2-1-pk5-446-2x-5pk/i/G2741331/?recommended=true

It appears Zypher make them too, # P2R. Need to look for a source.....


The Vessel bits I have used are good. One style/size doesnt seem to fit all in general with phillips, so I go with what fits the best if given the options.

 

[Kscardsfan]

I use the Milwaukee impact bits, but they get tossed as soon as they slip or give me grief. Life’s too short to deal with cammed out screw heads and the *** pain they bring you.

 

[cheechi]

you can get 6" (probably also other sizes but I like the 6") Taiwan OEM ones from QuickScrews, SO ACR (Zephyr?), Felo & Wiha tied for third. The QS and SO I like for different reasons but not every situation requires ACR so the QS edge out on top.

 

[Grant Gunderson]

It depends on what you are using them for.

For hand driving with an interchangeable bit screw driver, PB Swiss is about the best there is. This is what I carry with me when I am on the road for work and need to work on high-end cameras or bikes, or adjust ski bindings, etc.

For non-impact power driving, the Festool Centrotec is hands down the nicest bits I have ever used. Everything about them screams quality (they are ungodly expensive too) and the hand driver they make for them is also on par or better than PBSwiss.

For impact driving I have been using whatever mid-range one is on sale at the big box store, as they are consumables... however I have been wanting to try the new Festool ones based upon the experience I have with the centrotec versions.

The centrotec bit in the images bellow has been used for ~5 years. The used PBSwiss bit was used in a non-impact power driver just once and you can see the tip has minor deformation compared to the new one pictured.

For torx bits, the PBSwiss ones have not held up well, but the centrotec have. For hex bits PBSwiss is the best I have ever used.

 

[macgee]

Vessel, PB Swiss and Felo.

Like Grant says, it all depends what you're using them for. You have to be careful with all the advertising on impact bits, they're a unique animal that doesn't make them good for normal non-impact use.

Hand turning and cordless screwdriver with sensible torque settings, I find Vessel has been the best, PB Swiss and Felo. Vessel bits (the good Japanese ones) very hard to find but they're improving in the US; they offer 5 different hardnesses (52 HRC up to 62 HRC) and I think 4 different sizes for the same Phillips #2. They cater way more to the industrial manufacturing who pay much more attention to bits. They offer way more than just a standard tip.

Wera has a good fit but they're soft, I don't use Wiha's anymore, just as soft as Wera's but don't fit as well so what's the point? For the price, Felo is excellent and still made in Germany; the fit and finishing is impressive compared to others, similar to PB Swiss. I think with PB Swiss, you sometimes can get a bad heat treatment on them, I have some soft drivers from them right out of the box but typically they're the hardest wearing tips out there.

I'm new to Vessel but I've been extremely impressed with them and find the fit better than PB Swiss, you do have to pay good attention to which tips on which models as they do vary. Some drivers still have the JIS retro characteristic tips and some have the more modern ISO shape. Personally I really like having the older JIS style for #1 & #0 sizes. it's amazing the torque I can apply and there's no visible deformation on the screw socket head.
For sure PB Swiss bits for hex (Allan), the Felo's have really nice torx.

I forgot the name of them but recently I keep hearing good things about a bit for drywall screws that has been holding up well on impact drivers and has good fit.

EDIT: Grant, I'm very interested the centrotec bit, question: is it the normal 1/4" (6.3mm) hex width, I understand that is longer and wont lock in quick releases but will it fit in a normal magnetic hex socket holder? The price is a crazy $12 ea per bit

 

[RoundedNut]

Yeah my Wera PH2 bits flare at the very tip, kind of like a ******. Not my favorites.

I like wiha PH2's for electrical work as their flat tips with thick cross members work well on those slot/cross screws. Vessel PH2's are great for other uses.

Reduced shaft PH2's fit better than standard ones. These are most commonly used with power drivers on drywall screws.

Real Philips bits/screwdrivers should be avoided at all costs. These come to a sharper point and have curved cross members, kind of like a spade.

 

[Spacey_G]

Aside from some Oddball short sizes like 1" to secure a 1/4' panel, etc, that are in PH, most of my wood screws going up to 5/16 lags are torx

I know this isn't your question but if you want to fill in some of those smaller wood screw sizes with torx drive, check out monsterfastener.com. They have #8 x 1 and #6 x 1 wood screws that are torx drive. They also have torx drive #6 screws in other lengths.

I sought these out when I had had enough with the Phillips drive #8 x 1 and #6 Spax screws you find at Home Depot.

 

[Steve_P]

I prefer Wiha as well. They also make the correct xeno bit for electrical applications.

 

[dnschmidt]

TOPTUL, Vessel, Wera, and Wiha are the pick of the litter. All fit JIS screws perfectly as they are all built to the new DIN standard and all fit good old cam out Phillips better than normal Phillips. Zephyr makes great bits but they adhere to the Phillips standard which means they intentionally cam out. They state this explicitly in their literature and on their website.

Spacey G. The SPAX screws are best driven with a Robertson #2 bit. Their recess is a combination of Phillips and square drive and the square drive works better. The absolute best screws on planet Earth are the GRK R4. These rock.

 

[Spacey_G]

dnschmidt - If I'm not mistaken only the #8 x 1 Spax screws can be driven by Robertson bits and ime they still strip much easier than Torx. The #6s are PH only.

I'll stick with Torx which neither strips like PH nor gets wedged into the screw requiring the bit be pried out like Robertson. (I know this is a "feature" some people like but for me it's not worth the frustration)

Can you get GRK R4 screws in small sizes with Torx drive? I've only ever seen large sizes in stores, like #9 x 2 1/2 or #10 x 3. I never use those sizes in the woodshop.

 

[measuredtwice]

Zephyr makes great bits but they adhere to the Phillips standard which means they intentionally cam out. They state this explicitly in their literature and on their website.

Is this an internet myth? Since you say it is explicitly stated on the website, please link the page that you are referencing where it says their bits intentionally cam out. The catalog promotes their Anti cam out Phillips ACR bits.

 

[dnschmidt]

measuredtwice: Here you go: https://mrotools.com/d1222aaacr-b-zephyr-1-4-phillips-2-insert-bits-acr-for-machine-screws.aspx

 

[measuredtwice]

measuredtwice: Here you go: https://mrotools.com/d1222aaacr-b-zephyr-1-4-phillips-2-insert-bits-acr-for-machine-screws.aspx

That's not the Zephyr website. Thats MRO Tools.

https://zephyrmanufacturing.com/industrial

All Zephyr bits are heat treated in small lots for consistent quality. Zephyr's unique Z-Forge™
process assures exact dimensional fit in the recess. A Zephyr bit gives the truest fit,
longest performance and with our new ACR® bits, the least cam-out and product
damage of any available at any price.

 

[dnschmidt]

That's not the Zephyr website. Thats MRO Tools.

https://zephyrmanufacturing.com/industrial

When you go to Zephyr's website it directs you to MRO's site (so that you can actually buy their stuff) so I think whatever information is there has the blessing of Zephyr. Maybe they even own the place. I don't know.

 

[measuredtwice]

When you go to Zephyr's website it directs you to MRO's site (so that you can actually buy their stuff) so I think whatever information is there has the blessing of Zephyr. Maybe they even own the place. I don't know.

According to MRO/Omega's about me, they are a distributor. I'm not sure where they got that statement about cam out. I can't find it on the manufacturer site. Zephyr makes a big deal about precise fit and anti-cam out.

"Omega Technologies also proudly distributes Apex Fastener Tooling and Universal Joints, Sturtevant Richmont Torque Tools, Bosch, Cleco/Dotco Tools, Wera Screwdriving and Torque Tools, Master Power Tools, Wiss Aviation Snips, Utica Torque Tools and Zephyr Fastener Tools."

 

[Spacey_G]

When I've looked into the question of intentional cam-out, I concluded that it is, indeed, a myth.

The patent from 1936 (https://patents.google.com/patent/US2046837A/en) makes no mention of the bit camming out of the screw as a feature. Instead it makes several references to "wedging engagement" so as to prevent the bit from slipping:

The tool is also precisely constructed...to cause a firm wedging engagement between the bit and the recess when the two are brought together.

...the elements constituting my present form of composite invention are constructed along complementary angular lines to effect a positive wedging engagement when the screw and driver are joined together...

The patent does make reference to a "camming action", but it's not the cam-out people think of with Phillips bits:

This same angular formation...is especially designed to also create what might be termed a camming action during the approach of these angular faces toward one another with respect to any substances which might have become lodged within the recess of the screw. It has been found by experiment that a downward thrust of the bit into the recess will instantly dislodge any substance within the recess by causing it to move upwardly and outwardly over the walls of the recess.

The design was intended to dislodge debris from the screw recess through a "camming action", not for the bit to slip out at a high enough torque. In fact, in one of the supporting patents (https://patents.google.com/patent/US2046839A/en), Phillips specifically says the opposite:

As pointed out in said prior application, one of the principal objects of the invention is the provision of a recess in the head of a screw which is particularly adapted for firm engagement...in such a way that there will be no tendency of the driver to cam out of the recess...

This erroneous claim may have originated with a 1988 patent (https://patents.google.com/patent/US4998454A/en) the claims the original design was intended to cam out in automated applications:

it was expressly contemplated that, when applied by automated screwdrivers on an assembly line, the increasing torque applied to the Phillips screw would eventually cause the driver to pop out of the recess in the screw. In other words, the original Phillips-head design was intended to cause cam-out of the driver without damaging the screw head.

But I've found nothing in the original patents to support this claim. Moreover, the entire purpose of the 1988 modification was to make cam-out less likely:

The present invention relates to screwdriver bits and in particular to an improved screwdriver bit for Phillips-head fasteners that significantly reduces the "cam-out" experienced with a conventional screwdriver bit for Phillips-head fasteners.

It's certainly interesting that this myth has spread so far that even a bit manufacturer is making the erroneous claim about their own product!

 

[measuredtwice]

Good patent info Spacey_G.

In this case it is the distributor, not the manufacturer, that made the false claim. It's especially weird because the distributor is talking about ACR, not just vanilla Phillips. The distributor says "ACR" is "puroposely designed to cam out". Doesn't make sense.

Regarding Zephyr bits, the distributor says Zephyr ACR "reduce... camout".

"The Phillips head screwdriver with ACR is purposely designed to cam out when the screw stalls, preventing the fastener from damaging the work or the head. Painted, coated or corroded fasteners can present special problems. Zephyr ACR insert bits special wing-face ribs grip screw recesses to reduce stripping and cam-out which can result in damage to the surrounding workpiece."

 

[measuredtwice]

Zephyr's catalog makes a big deal about precise fit and ANTI cam out.

 

[dnschmidt]

In closing who cares? I just use DIN spec bits and I know they don't cam out. Anybody who has ever used a conventional Phillips bit (especially one made by Craftsman) on a Honda motorcycle carburetor will verify that straight from the original spec Phillips bits cam out, damage the screws, and screw up your day. I have no argument with Zephyr as it's generally agreed that they make great bits. But, if their great bits are not to the modern cross-slot screw DIN standard it makes little difference how well they make a ****** design it's still a ****** design. Buy a Vessel screwdriver or bit and put it into either a JIS screw or a conventional Phillips and you will IMMEDIATELY know that it fits much tighter and better than a normal Phillips no matter how well that normal Phillips is made. They turn Phillips screws into Robertson screws and the screw will actually hold on the end of the screwdriver like a Square Drive Robertson. All of my motorcycle buddies have forced me to give them TOPTUL Phillips screwdrivers (they didn't get them all, I saved a stash for myself - screw 'em) to work on their Jap bikes after I showed one of them the difference. Once again, my argument is with Phillips and not Zephyr. Finally, there had to be a reason that the Phillips Screw Company invented the Pozidriv recess to fix the problems of the original Phillips. All German cabinet hardware, and that's most of the cabinet hardware on Earth, use Pozidriv as Blum, Hettich and Hafele along with all of the Italian hinge makers use Pozidriv.

 

[macgee]

I'm no fan of Zephyr bits and have zero desire to have any in my shop.

I'm sure they're excellent bits (for someone else) but I've had them for years in my shop because I had acquired a ton of new old stock supplies from the aviation industry, all in plastic bags in many different styles and sizes. I was totally done with them after having a bucket full of them worn out bits, they ****. I have an equal amount of Apex bits and they were better but still no where near as good or as useful as Vessel, PB Swiss or Felo and other similar ISO tip bits/screwdrivers. The Zephyr & Apex bits may look good but just don't fit as well on the wide variety of machines that come through my shop and cost can be higher.

I also dumped all my Snap-On Phillips screwdrivers several years ago with zero remorse.

 

[measuredtwice]

In closing who cares? I just use DIN spec bits and I know they don't cam out. Anybody who has ever used a conventional Phillips bit (especially one made by Craftsman) on a Honda motorcycle carburetor will verify that straight from the original spec Phillips bits cam out, damage the screws, and screw up your day. I have no argument with Zephyr as it's generally agreed that they make great bits. But, if their great bits are not to the modern cross-slot screw DIN standard it makes little difference how well they make a ****** design it's still a ****** design. Buy a Vessel screwdriver or bit and put it into either a JIS screw or a conventional Phillips and you will IMMEDIATELY know that it fits much tighter and better than a normal Phillips no matter how well that normal Phillips is made. They turn Phillips screws into Robertson screws and the screw will actually hold on the end of the screwdriver like a Square Drive Robertson. All of my motorcycle buddies have forced me to give them TOPTUL Phillips screwdrivers (they didn't get them all, I saved a stash for myself - screw 'em) to work on their Jap bikes after I showed one of them the difference. Once again, my argument is with Phillips and not Zephyr. Finally, there had to be a reason that the Phillips Screw Company invented the Pozidriv recess to fix the problems of the original Phillips. All German cabinet hardware, and that's most of the cabinet hardware on Earth, use Pozidriv as Blum, Hettich and Hafele along with all of the Italian hinge makers use Pozidriv.

Zephyr USA makes the two bits on the left. They have different profiles and features. The Zephyr USA bit in the middle is VERY similar to the Felo Germany bit on the right.

If you ONLY know about the bit on the left, you might make a false assumption that they are all the same from Zephyr. But they make a range of bits. They will even custom make a bit to whatever specifications you make--This is mentioned in the catalog pages above.

Here's a USA made Apex 440-2X bit and a Vessel 2H bit side-by-side. Apex on the right. Vessel on the left.

Here’s an Apex USA bit and a Vessel Japan bit. They are VERY close. If the brand names weren’t shown, it would be difficult to tell them apart.

The internet can amplify internet myths or it can replace those myths with facts. Everyone’s experience is limited but when we add up all those limited experiences together and throw out the myths, then we can get some really good information.

 

[macgee]

Edited

If this thread stays on topic, it should then last for many years for many other people to read, enjoy and post here; hopefully well past this page and be a good future reference to read.

 

[measuredtwice]

Sigh, Here we go again

Please go ahead and continue to republish all the pictures you have in your computer on tips, still doesn't not change the fact of actual hands on experience and results. I can photograph two loathes of sourdough bread, they look identical to each other in the pic but made by different bakeries in different counties; are they the same.

Zephyr and Apex makes a zillion different types of bits. They're contracted to make exact mil spec level tips batches for US aerospace specific build projects and also generic ones for the open market and private label. We get it and yes, they have many brochures with all kinds of cool things written in them too and they're amazing. I love their swivel microstop countersinks, we have many of them and use them daily.

In my opinion (and employees) they're still not better compared to Vessel, Felo and PB Swiss tips and the likes for the avg. person needing to buy tools for the home or shop but I'm sure they're still amazing. Also consider availability and cost when it comes time to order tools and grand scheme of things.

I have had over a thousand Apex and Zephyr tips go through my shop, they were the ones that you posted above, mil spec versions and many others ones you have not seen. Those two companies offer a vast crazy array of different specs and styles for the same size tip that mostly are not relevant for the avg GJ shop. All my employees all have the same opinion as they had to use them as well. We rather use other tips regardless of myths, pictures and cool literature. I have worked directly with screwdriver manufacturers and engineers about socket head design and tip design.
FYI: I have no interest nor time in supplying any photo's, debating or answering questions wanting more info about them. It's exhausting and counterproductive for this forum & thread.

I think we've gone off topic enough, it keeps happening over and over and the thread dies, maybe you should create your own thread about that topic.

Lets keep it simple and lets hear what other GJ members have to say, give everyone a chance to post on what they think and what are the best Phillip bits?

If this thread stays on topic, it should then last for many years for many other people to read, enjoy and post here; hopefully well past this page and be a good future reference to read.

What tha?? I hadn’t read your posts in this topic.

The photos I posted in this topic were intended to be helpful. I assume that you were trying to be helpful here and just overlooked the details in his post --> https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=8889790&highlight=#post8889790

I took the photo of the Zephyr bit today. The photo of the Apex bit was from our prior conversation. Ironically, YOU had asked me for that photo. Haha. It just didn’t show what you had assumed. Your photos were illustrations and photos pulled from the web that were not representative of the REAL drivers that we were discussing. I was trying to be helpful by showing how the real drivers compared.

Not everything can be seen in a photo and so discussion is also helpful. I don’t disagree. As they say on the internet, if you don’t post photos it didn’t happen.

Relax bro.

 

[mobiledynamics]

I ordered both a Zephyr and Vessel to Compare.

I'll have to do a search on threads but I recall one thread in the last 6 months...cannot recall much but the OP was not crazed about the engagement of the Vessel at all. Cannot recall the thread subject or tip style - but clearly do recall the negative on it.

 

[Ralf11]

I'd like to see some scanning electron micrographs of tips

 

[B_Bimmer]

Personally I got a lot more out of measuredtwice's excellent pictures than anyone's internet claims of self importance. Of what I own,I do prefer vessel on Japanese bikes. Other than that though any good brand holds up pretty well, and I've worn them all out eventually.

 

[Todd.Brock]

These are what I’ve used for 10 years . It takes me about 5 years to wear out/ lose a set of 20 bits. Best I have found.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[alinc100]

I liked these Wera bits , they were great at holding the screw. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00A8QBN02/?tag=atomicindus08-20
BUT we are driving 1-1/4" to 2" self tapping pan head screws through 1/8" anodized aluminum,through 5/8" drywall and into metal studs with 18-20v impact drivers. The Wera's broke just as easily as the multi pack DeWalts so I gave up buying/trying the $3/ea bits for the company supplied Dewalts. We probably use 10-20 per week if not more. I was hoping for longevity with the Wera bits but they break just as quick.

 

[mobiledynamics]

Going back to my OP as well....granted, while I appreciate working with a good bit (current stash is primarily Apex and Wiha) with some Wera T25/30 impaktors.....I more often may lose a bit than not....so I was saying, why not just a stash of bits from the big box stores.

Granted industrial bits in BULK can be on the same pricepoint, but I don't need bulk at this point in time