Best Robertson Screwdrivers?

[dnschmidt]

McFeeley's sells the original Robertson screwdrivers and bits. They are the two piece design and those are what you're looking for.

 

[scooby074]

There's "Square recess" and there is Robertson.

SR is a way to get around the Robertson patent. Usually SR have slight differences to Robertson, things like taper and length so that they arent in violation of the patent.

Lee Valley sells Genuine Robertson bits, at one time they actually sold genuine Robertson screws too but I dont know if they still do. They were great and actually locked onto the genuine bits.

I have Wera and Klein Robertsons. I also have some old school, solid colour, hard plastic Mastercraft (Made in Canada) that I think are Grays. The Wera is looser than the Klien. I prefer the handles on the Wera and the tips on the Klein. The old Mastercraft are good too.

 

[rlitman]

...The Wera is looser than the Klien...

If it is loose at all, it is garbage. A Robertson's tapered fit means that the driver should stick in the hole enough to hold the fastener onto the tip with the tip facing down (if you push on it a bit), or hold the driver handle securely on its own, horizontally.

 

[mrspeed]

There's "Square recess" and there is Robertson.

SR is a way to get around the Robertson patent. Usually SR have slight differences to Robertson, things like taper and length so that they arent in violation of the patent.

Lee Valley sells Genuine Robertson bits, at one time they actually sold genuine Robertson screws too but I dont know if they still do. They were great and actually locked onto the genuine bits.

The more I research, the more I'm convinced this is misinformation.

No one can violate the patent, because the patent expired over 50 years ago. According to Robertson Inc.'s own website:

The first patent was issued in 1909 and the last patent expired 55 years later in 1964.

Based on the above, the patent has been expired since before Lee Valley was founded in 1978, 14 years after the Robertson patent expired. So, Lee Valley could sell Robertson bits all they wanted without any licensing since their founding, just like everyone else. This is similar to why anyone can make and sell Phillips screws and screwdrivers as well, since the last patent for Phillips expired in 1966. Though, Phillips was much more open to licensing to anyone and everyone even before the patents expired.

According to Wikipedia, "Robertson" and "square drive" are synonyms, and Robertson is also the only square drive system they have listed for fastener types (emphasis mine):

A Robertson, also known as a square[34] or Scrulox[35] screw drive is specified as ANSI Type III Square Center and has a square-shaped socket in the screw head and a square protrusion on the tool.

This Product Specification (PDF) from the Aspen Fastener company says that Robertson is the same as "square drive recess" and uses both of these terms with the term "square recess" interchangeably. It also describes the Robertson color coding system for square drives:

SQUARE DRIVE RECESS (ROBERTSON DRIVE) SCREWS Specifications & Dimensions

The square drive recess was the first recess-type drive developed with the intent for large volume screw production. Today, over a century later, square drive screws are widely available, inexpensive and have many advantages over other drive systems

I also found this Q&A site with a similar assertion to the one I made earlier, which is that there is no other current standard for square drives, just varying levels of quality and manufacturing. In addition to this excerpt, all the other answers seem to be in agreement as well that they're interchangeable:

20 years in construction (US, Canada), and the key differentiator for me isn't tapered versus not; it's simply quality of manufacture. Some are great; others aren't. (This is also true in the land of phillips, pozidrive, torx, etc.)

From my research, it seems like Robertson is simply a type of square recess drive, in the same way that a Ford Fusion is a type of car. But in the same way that you can't just buy a "car" that isn't some other type of car, you also can't just buy a "square drive" screw or screwdriver that isn't some other type of square drive.

In this case though, it just so happens that Robertson is the only square drive system to have ever become commercially available. So, manufacturers just use the terms "Robertson" and "square drive" or "square recess" interchangeably.

Another reason manufacturers may prefer "square drive" over Robertson is to stay clear of the Robertson trademark for the Robertson screw company, which I'm guessing is separate from the Robertson design. This would be a reason to call it "square drive" but not to design it any differently than the freely available and widely adopted Robertson design.

I've included many of the sources I've read here to come to these conclusions. I couldn't find even a single resource supporting the idea that "square recess" or "square drive" is different than Robertson that wasn't just a random comment on a forum. If anyone else could shed light on the possibility of any other square drive system that is actually manufactured, for example the ANSI or DIN specification for a non-Robertson square recess design, that'd be great!

 

[wiens80]

All I know is that when you find a Robertson that works well, hang on to it. To me it seems within the same brand there isn’t consistency. When they’re bad they’re really bad, wobbling all over the place.


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[mrspeed]

I only have size 2 screws to do this test with, so I couldn't compare the Witte or Bahco drivers, since I only have those drivers in sizes 1 and 3. I also don't have the Klein or any of the Canadian drivers to compare that people in this thread seem to like.

I can at least say that my Wera drivers do a good job of fitting both screw brands snuggly with no play or slop. Here are pictures of the cling test others mentioned should be possible with the Robertson profile. I wish I had a driver that didn't pass the test as a control, but they all do a good job or gripping the screws.



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[Professional Tool User]

Maybe I'm not looking in the right places, but on Amazon.ca I'm not seeing a huge price difference between Klein and Wera. Both seem to run around $60-$70 CAD for a 6 pcs set of Phillips and slotted, and around $100-$110 total when you add in the Robertson's.

The Wera are very slightly cheaper, but then there are also the Greenlee version of the Klein's that are a bit cheaper too. Overall though, the difference in price I'm seeing is very negligible.

Am I missing a better source for the Wera's? Keep in mind I'm in Canada so paying shipping and duties on most American sites really kills the value for me.

It's hilarious how I can't find the Wera 6 pc set with two robertsons in it on Amazon.ca. A Klein 6-8 pc set usually runs at least $80. KMS tools, where I buy most the most of my Wera tools, sells certain Wera items at around the same price as Amazon.ca and is actually cheaper when they put certain sets on sale. The set I am referring to usually goes for around $40-$50 and drops down to around $30 when on sale.

ttps://m.kmstools.com/wera-6pc-screwdriver-set-4833j

And this is a brick and mortar chain with some online sales where they take care of your warranty problems. If you live in a big city in Canada, you've got to know your local suppliers. Amazon.ca is a joke when it comes to tools. They don't have half of the specialty tools that I can find in the US online and there have been many a time where local suppliers charged around the same. Buying tools in the US is like chasing after diminishing returns with the current exchange rate. I might as well pay a bit extra and buy it off the tool truck in many cases or go hunt for a local supplier. Usually when something goes on sale at KMS or some other local supplier, the price is around the same as the regular price in the US.

 

[superautobacs]

.... Amazon.ca is a joke when it comes to tools. They don't have half of the specialty tools that I can find in the US online and there have been many a time where local suppliers charged around the same. Buying tools in the US is like chasing after diminishing returns with the current exchange rate. I might as well pay a bit extra and buy it off the tool truck in many cases or go hunt for a local supplier. Usually when something goes on sale at KMS or some other local supplier, the price is around the same as the regular price in the US.

I agree with all your points.



Handyandy23, it's too bad Lee Valley no longer sells Wera stuff since you could've bought a set of genuine Robertson drive bits (that I referenced to earlier) and the Wera screwdrivers for a one-stop shopping.

Like Professional Tool User mentioned, take a look at KMS. Here's a link to a search result for "Wera screwdriver":
https://www.kmstools.com/search/results?inc_subcat=1&search_in_description=&keyword=wera+screwdriver"]https://www.kmstools.com/search/results?inc_subcat=1&search_in_description=&keyword=wera+screwdriver[/URL]


I should've attached this photo to illustrate the "square-plus" feature I was referring to earlier.

 

[rick carpenter]

I'm happy with my Milwaukee gen 1 insulated comfort grip square drivers though I haven't put them to any real test so far. The Milwaukee tri-lobe set has square drives.

 

[mr.lemons]

Good info mrspeed.

 

[PartsGuy]

Snap-on catalogs from the 90's show these as "Scrulox" drivers. My personal set are MAC comfort grip from the same time frame, with part numbers PR100, 200 and 300A, the "R" presumably referencing "Robertson"... they worked well enough for the rare occasions I have used them!

 

[mrspeed]

First, I apologize for hi-jacking this post for the square-drive-vs-Robertson topic. If you're not interested, please skip this post. If you are interested, I found some more info.

Another reason manufacturers may prefer "square drive" over Robertson is to stay clear of the Robertson trademark for the Robertson screw company, which I'm guessing is separate from the Robertson design. This would be a reason to call it "square drive" but not to design it any differently than the freely available and widely adopted Robertson design.

To validate the trademark versus patent idea, I just noticed that the second-to-last page of the Wera catalogue lists all of the trademarks they use, and it attributes the Robertson trademark (not patent) to the company, British Robertson S.L.U.



Also, I finally found two sources that seem to claim a difference between Robertson and "square drive" screws, but it's not much. Both sources seem to come from Robertson Inc. itself, and it seems to come down to, "Only we ensure the entire Robertson system, which involves slightly tapering the recess," even though there's absolutely nothing preventing others from doing the same.

Here is a PDF from the Robertson Inc. website explaining what you get with "real Robertson" screws:

Insist on Original Robertson® Screws and Driver Bits. It's the only way to ensure a proper"Cling Fit"!

And here is an Instructable article making the same claims that seem to be substantiated only by someone who worked for Robertson Inc:

Thanks Brian J. Cooley, Robertson Inc., Tools Division Product Line Manager for North America, for adding information on the 6th Robertson size and for pointing out ALL true Robertson Inc. power bits and insert bits are of the 2 piece variety, they have never produced one piece bits. (I've changed the reference picture as the original one was not not a true Robertson). An easy way for consumers to tell if any fasteners came from Robertson Inc. They use the ® following Robertson ® on all of the products manufactured.

This random tool parts website, on the other hand, says that Robertson/square/Scrulox is specified by ANSI Type III Square Centre. Note that while they mention the taper, they also say this is the same thing as a square screw drive specified as the ANSI Type III Square Centre standard:

A Robertson, also known as a square or Scrulox screw drive is specified as ANSI Type III Square Centre and has a square-shaped socket in the screw head and a square protrusion on the tool. Both the tool and the socket have a slight taper.

Then, I found this fastener site that lists all fastener specifications, which seems to specify that square recess drive fasteners are only specified by ASME/ANSI, and not DIN, and also shows the presence of both metric and standard Type III square drives. None of them specify a slight taper in the recess itself.

From there, I tried to find any specification for exactly what taper should be present in Robertson drive screws. Interestingly, the Robertson website PDF above points out that other manufacturers may have a taper that's either too small or too large, but it doesn't specify what is the correct taper. So, I went to the original Robertson patent, and it also doesn't specify what the taper should be, only that it is "slight":

...square cross section and all the sides whereof are of equal area and converge at a very slight angle...

So far, my conclusions are:

• There is no official standard for square drive fasteners other than Robertson / ANSI Type III.
• There is no official published standard one way or the other for how much taper should be in a Robertson screw or driver, but anyone could just measure a Robertson screw or driver to figure out what it is and reproduce it.
• As with all other fastener designs, like Phillips, Torx, etc., there are varying levels of quality in fastener design, materials, and manufacturing, so there are a lot of opportunities for any manufacturer to screw it up.
• The only somewhat authoritative sources I can find for the story that square drive products are different than official Robertson products seem to be coming from Robertson Inc. itself.

This seems interesting to me. I'm not saying this is the case, as I could still be missing some information, but considering they no longer have the patents to prevent others from manufacturing the exact same fasteners and tools, it would make sense to use the trust they've built in the brand name to differentiate themselves.

 

[Hytekrednek]

Any authoritative sources for this info would be great, because again, I'm not sure this info is correct. From everything I've been able to find online, the only square drive design in use today for fasteners or screwdrivers is the Robertson design.

While it's true there were other square drive designs before Robertson, none of them were ever commercially successful or mass produced, before or after Robertson.

Also the last of the Robertson patents expired over 50 years ago according to the Robertson Inc. website, so everyone is free to manufacture Robertson design screws and drivers, and they're free to use the Robertson color coding system, or skip it if they want:

https://www.robertsonscrew.com/

I can also see why manufacturers would call Robertson drive hardware simply "square" drive as well, since they may not want to do free advertising for Robertson Inc.

I could be wrong about the absence of any other square drive on the market today. I just haven't been able to find any information about it aside from random claims in forums. I'm wondering if people are just confused by manufacturers with poor tolerances or getting creative with the Robertson design in their products, rather than adhering to the spec of some other square drive design.

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I read it somewhere online, I will try to find it again. It made sense to me based on the heavy use of these type screws and drivers. Some bits fit better then others on brand x, then brand y will be the other way. Nearly always either the 2 piece robertson driver or the one piece square drive would fit the screw much better, so I assumed there was something going on and the info I read made sense. Whatever the reason, it helps a ton, in my opinion, to have some of both type drivers/bits on hand.
When they work, I very much prefer the 2 piece bits or drivers. They just seem to last much longer and I dont think I have ever snapped one in all the years of using them. I snap the one piece bits fairly regular, maybe 1 every couple weeks or so. Not a huge problem as they are cheap, but it is annoying and could damage your work or finger when it breaks.
I will look for the source of the info I mentioned...

 

[KSB]

My go to set of screwdrivers for Robertson screws are the Klein’s. My set is close to 20 years old now but seem to be the best for me.

I usually find that when my impact driver has stripped out the head of the screw the screwdriver will still grab it.

I’m not a huge fan of rubber grip screwdrivers but in this case the Klein’s are the winners.

Don’t know if quality has changed over the years but mine are still good to go. They still grab the taper with ease.

Edit: Spelling
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[rick carpenter]

I miked my Milwaukee #1 & #2 square drivers as well as my Klein #1 & #2 square power bits and they are tapered.

 

[superautobacs]

Just recently got some spare Wera ones from KMS Tools
I tried to capture the so-called "Square-Plus" feature. The flats are purposely ground hollow or concave.


Wera #2 Robertson/Square Drive with "Square Plus" by ChrisCas aka Superautobacs, on Flickr



Wera #2 Robertson/Square Drive with "Square Plus" by ChrisCas aka Superautobacs, on Flickr

 

[skoronesa]

I was looking up Xcelite Scrulox Screwdrivers and found this thread. Apparently Scrulox is a Robertson Mfg. design update, patented roughly around the time their original US patent expired. It is supposed to fit the screws better and be easier to manufacture. If you find anything with the Scrulox name on it, it should be licensed from Robertson and made to their specifications.

Our History | Robertson Screw

Since our inception in 1908, Robertson Inc. has been committed to maintaining the highest level of excellence in our products and services.

www.robertsonscrew.com

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/47/23/82/d39a9dd6c62ac2/US2936010.pdf

 

[Crazyjake8493]

All of my dedicated Robertson drivers are Wera, both insulated and uninsulated. My favorite brand of screwdrivers for electrical work.

 

[NoahG]

I always thought Scrulox referred to those 8 point double square screws found in manufactured homes.