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Best terminal crimper?

garfunkle24

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What was the cause of those pull outs?

Poor crimps?:D


They use **** connectors on multi-million dollar machines? They can't spring for some solder and heatshrink?:lol:

FYI, a properly crimped connection is superior to a solder joint. Also, the machines aren't built with **** connectors but they are sometimes used in repairs or modifications.
 
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garfunkle24

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Superior how, Mechanically or electrically?

Both.

A soldered joint tends to break where the the solder ends under vibration and heat-shrink, whether adhesive lined or not, is NOT enough strain relief for this point.

A high compression mechanical crimp will actually displace oxygen within the conductor, theoretically improving conductivity.

This, of course, only applies to stranded wiring.
 
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garfunkle24

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I guess I was more wondering whether it was under crimping vs overcrimping and broken strands making it loose over time.

Ah, gotcha, All but one of the cases I saw were under-crimped and came out of the terminal after repeated vibration cycles, which was evidenced by a lack of broken strands.
 

shampoop

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Both.

A soldered joint tends to break where the the solder ends under vibration and heat-shrink, whether adhesive lined or not, is NOT enough strain relief for this point.

A high compression mechanical crimp will actually displace oxygen within the conductor, theoretically improving conductivity.

This, of course, only applies to stranded wiring.

The other thing I've heard is that while solder joints are very mechanically strong when cold, when they get hot they are not. Crimped joints are still mechanically strong when they're hot. Something I think is especially important for automototive applications.
 

5mall5nail5

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We crimp everything in the aerospace industry, mostly. Some soldered terminals but usually solid core wire like 30 - 36 gauge at that point. Realize though that it takes the PROPER tool to get the crimp right consistently.

I build engine looms and wire ECUs on the side. Here are some wiring best practices (NASA approved) I pulled from work one day:

http://dtaforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=10
 

firebox40dash5

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No, just insulated **** connectors, ring terminals etc. Also, I'm glad you will never work on anything (electrical or otherwise) if that is your standard of work.

Hold up, you're using cheesy-*** insulated terminals, and you're questioning MY work? :headscrat

I haven't used them in ages, at least not without ripping that worthless plastic off and using some nice, thick, glue-filled heatshrink tube. I'll take waterproof electrical connections, thankyouverymuch. I bet your heavy equipment/agricultural/industrial customers would like some, too.

Amazingly, without plastic over it, you can get a solid crimp on the metal with a lot of tools. I don't know how my Channellocks will do with insulated terminals, and I don't plan to find out.

And no, I've never walked away from crimping something and not finished... that's just dumb, and I wouldn't walk away unless something was on fire. :wtf:
 

alan camby

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Both.

A soldered joint tends to break where the the solder ends under vibration and heat-shrink, whether adhesive lined or not, is NOT enough strain relief for this point.

A high compression mechanical crimp will actually displace oxygen within the conductor, theoretically improving conductivity.

This, of course, only applies to stranded wiring.

I agree. Any solder that is wicked up into the insulation end of the connection will make the wire very brittle. Sometimes the wire will not bend but break in the insulation causing a troubleshooting nightmare.

Also, some sensors breath through the wire. Any solder will disrupt the signal.
Some thermocouples and o2 sensors are like this.

I don't like using insulated terminals myself. I only use non-insulated with either a wire marker tubing or heat shrink. I think heat shrink has the best strain relief. I like the adhesive lined type. Have had better luck with polyolefin over PVC heat shrink.
 

garfunkle24

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Hold up, you're using cheesy-*** insulated terminals, and you're questioning MY work? :headscrat

I haven't used them in ages, at least not without ripping that worthless plastic off and using some nice, thick, glue-filled heatshrink tube. I'll take waterproof electrical connections, thankyouverymuch. I bet your heavy equipment/agricultural/industrial customers would like some, too.

Amazingly, without plastic over it, you can get a solid crimp on the metal with a lot of tools. I don't know how my Channellocks will do with insulated terminals, and I don't plan to find out.

And no, I've never walked away from crimping something and not finished... that's just dumb, and I wouldn't walk away unless something was on fire. :wtf:

No need to get all emotional. I specifically referenced your post, you just made a bunch of ASSumptions. I don't personally use insulated connectors. Our machines are increasingly sold to developing markets where local sub-contractors perform maintenance, mods etc. Some of those guys do choose to use insulated connectors.

You can carry on crimping terminals with side cutters and a Leatherman Wave, but me and my techs will continue to ratchet-crimp bare terminals and seal with adhesive-lined 4:1 3M heatshrink for general repairs where weatherproof and/or proprietary connectors are not specced.

Also: Yes, sometimes I have to leave a job unfinished due to other responsibilities.


I build engine looms and wire ECUs on the side. Here are some wiring best practices (NASA approved) I pulled from work one day:

http://dtaforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=10

Great link, thanks!
 
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redwrench60

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Both.

A soldered joint tends to break where the the solder ends under vibration and heat-shrink, whether adhesive lined or not, is NOT enough strain relief for this point.

A high compression mechanical crimp will actually displace oxygen within the conductor, theoretically improving conductivity.

This, of course, only applies to stranded wiring.

Hmmm...good food for thought. What stops a crimped connection from also breaking where the crimp ends?
Also I'm with you on the ratcheting crimpers. They do a better more consistant job with less effort.
 

firebox40dash5

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No need to get all emotional. I specifically referenced your post, you just made a bunch of ASSumptions. I don't personally use insulated connectors. Our machines are increasingly sold to developing markets where local sub-contractors perform maintenance, mods etc. Some of those guys do choose to use insulated connectors.

You can carry on crimping terminals with side cutters and a Leatherman Wave, but me and my techs will continue to ratchet-crimp bare terminals and seal with adhesive-lined 4:1 3M heatshrink for general repairs where weatherproof and/or proprietary connectors are not specced.

Also: Yes, sometimes I have to leave a job unfinished due to other responsibilities.

Oh ok cool, so you do it the same way I do, but you use a ratcheting crimper. Have a cookie, homie. :fawk:

Yeah, I've used side cutters and a multi-tool to crimp connectors on my own stuff. If you'd like to come check my work, go right ahead. :p It's not something I'd do for a paying customer, but it does work, if done carefully.

Your theory that only ratcheting crimpers can crimp itty bitty terminals properly is just ******** silly. I could probably do the old blasting cap crimp with my teeth on an 18-22 terminal and have it hold, if I were so inclined. If you're talking larger than 8-gauge, then you'd have a point.
 
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garfunkle24

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Your theory that only ratcheting crimpers can crimp itty bitty terminals properly is just ******** silly. I could probably do the old blasting cap crimp with my teeth on an 18-22 terminal and have it hold, if I were so inclined. If you're talking larger than 8-gauge, then you'd have a point.

K, no more arguing, I'm sure your wiring is fine.

Your point is that it is possible to make a good a good crimp with tools other than a ratcheting crimper: TRUE

My point is just that a ratcheting crimper is the superior tool (see word "best" in title...), especially from a repeat-ability and QC perspective when it's not just your own work you have to worry about.
 
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garfunkle24

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Hmmm...good food for thought. What stops a crimped connection from also breaking where the crimp ends?
Also I'm with you on the ratcheting crimpers. They do a better more consistant job with less effort.

This is just my perception as I haven't seen much literature on it:

Because a crimped terminal has some flex whereas solder has none, there is not as severe a transition from hard to soft material, which is where a break tends to occur.

IMHO, good quality heat-shrink tubing provides enough strain-relief to support this transition point on a crimped connector.:dunno:

Also, if you work on enough equipment, you will see wires broken or partially broken right at that point on crimped connectors if not properly supported.
 
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firebox40dash5

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K, no more arguing, I'm sure your wiring is fine.

Your point is that it is possible to make a good a good crimp with tools other than a ratcheting crimper: TRUE

My point is just that a ratcheting crimper is the superior tool (see word "best" in title...), especially from a repeat-ability and QC perspective when it's not just your own work you have to worry about.

Maybe one day I'll come across a pair of ratchet crimps and try them out. I don't do wiring all day every day, the most crimping I'd usually do at once would be a stereo harness, that's why I've lived with those crappy, stamped crimpers until recently. Having used other ~9" plier style crimpers, they work for me. I checked the Snap Ons out on the truck (not sure what model, but ~7" IIRC) and wasn't impressed, though... not for $80 for sure.

I usually value the speed and small size of regular ones, honestly. A good crimp and some heatshrink and it's not going anywhere, as you said.
 

skruft

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I don't think there is anything wrong with any of the described methods, done properly with the correct tools. I have used all different ways.

For what it's worth, when I work on boats, I find it a good idea to use the adhesive-lined insulated terminals anywhere that there might be water nearby, but they cost far more and take more care in making the crimp than other terminals. Sometimes a quality ratcheting crimper with the right die will still leave them too loose.
 

redwrench60

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This is just my perception as I haven't seen much literature on it:

Because a crimped terminal has some flex whereas solder has none, there is not as severe a transition from hard to soft material, which is where a break tends to occur.

IMHO, good quality heat-shrink tubing provides enough strain-relief to support this transition point on a crimped connector.:dunno:

Also, if you work on enough equipment, you will see wires broken or partially broken right at that point on crimped connectors if not properly supported.

I've seen a fair amount of trouble out of both soldered and crimped connections, especially where vibration or movement occurs. I always try to use what seems to fit the application best. I hold my nose when I have to use those crappy plastic **** connectors.
 

KinzeMech

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You nailed it there also. I know I can trust myself to solder a connection or crimp it well with 909s, but I also have to worry about the work my techs are putting out.

So the problem isn't the tool, it's the techs, but you still solve it by replacing the tool?

Given the choice, I will take the electrical repair by the excellent tech with the marginal crimper over the marginal tech with the excellent crimper, everyday, and twice on Sunday.
 

garfunkle24

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So the problem isn't the tool, it's the techs, but you still solve it by replacing the tool?

Given the choice, I will take the electrical repair by the excellent tech with the marginal crimper over the marginal tech with the excellent crimper, everyday, and twice on Sunday.

Wow, great burn! You really got me!

WTF are you even talking about? Are you just being a troll? Did you have anything remotely useful or relevant to add to the thread?:fawk:

The excellent crimper is still better than the marginal crimper, is it not?

Because that's all we're talking about here, not a debate on the merits of having the best tools versus the best employees.

Your argument is simplistic at best anyway. Should we just make people better drivers instead of putting ABS and airbags in cars?
 
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nanofrog

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But used PROPERLY there is nothing wrong with a good quality plier style crimper.
This is the hard part though, and the ratcheting styles help reduce some of the variables such as crimp force and terminal placement. Ratcheting types deal with some of these issues by applying a consistent crimp force by it's design, and might add a locater to assist in placement (not all do, such as some models with interchangeable dies).

It's a matter of reproducibility in order to insure it meets specifications, as well as saving on costs (reduces production time vs pure hand, and by reduced rework either at the factory or as a warranty repair).

Much harder to get a good crimp the more it depends on all factors done by hand (location, crimp pressure, strip length, nicks in the wire during stripping, ...), though not impossible.

So better tools were developed (ratcheting, electric, and pneumatic crimp tools), as well as automatic wire strippers to prevent variable strip length and nicks to the wire.

I got the Waytek Wire housing and a couple of the interchangeable jaws. Best $120 investment Ive ever made. I can knock out metripack and weatherpack crimps with the seal all at once, easy perfect crimps every time.
If it's the one I think it is, it's actually a Pressmaster MCT.

I own one of these, and it's nice. Does require a bit more skill though, as there aren't any locators available, which makes terminal placement a bit more difficult (pay attention to where the seam is in the die, and experiment with the depth with different brands of terminals).

The other thing I've heard is that while solder joints are very mechanically strong when cold, when they get hot they are not. Crimped joints are still mechanically strong when they're hot. Something I think is especially important for automotive applications.
If it gets too hot, the solder can actually melt. But at that point, the insulation is also burnt off of the wire (i.e. insulation in automotive applications is usually rated to 80C, while 63/37 solder will melt at 183C, lead-free solders much higher than that). Insulated terminals can take more than that, as 105C is typical for vinyl insulated terminals.

The transition from solder impregnated wire to non is abrupt, so mechanical failure is prone to occur at that junction, such as that caused by vibration. Crimp terminals don't have this issue, so can tolerate vibration better.

Some terminals are better suited for vibration as well, such as open barrel types, as it makes a better crimp on the insulation than insulated terminal can, especially on thinner insulation.

I don't like using insulated terminals myself. I only use non-insulated with ... heat shrink. I think heat shrink has the best strain relief. I like the adhesive lined type.
Better for **** splices than the insulated terminals.

What do you use for end connections, such as when you need female spades?

Hmmm...good food for thought. What stops a crimped connection from also breaking where the crimp ends?
Assuming it's flexing where the wire exits the metal portion of the terminal, it will eventually break (i.e an insufficient insulation crimp or none at all, and no other means of insulation support), but not as quickly as if it were soldered.

But the flexure issue can be solved by properly supporting the wire at the terminal, thus extending it's service life.
 

KinzeMech

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Wow, great burn! You really got me!
? It was just a simple question. The point makes sense.
WTF are you even talking about? Are you just being a troll? Did you have anything remotely useful or relevant to add to the thread?:fawk:
What is your problem? There is no reason for rudeness or hostility. I don't know what I've done to ruffle your feathers so, but nonetheless, I apologize.

The excellent crimper is still better than the marginal crimper, is it not?
By very definition of the words, an excellent anything is better than a marginal anything. To address the point I believe you were intending to make, yes, there are certainly some crimpers are better than others.
Because that's all we're talking about here, not a debate on the merits of having the best tools versus the best employees.
You brought up the subject. I was responding to the point you made, in which you stated you know you can perform satisfactory work with a 909, and proceeded to imply that your techs cannot, thereby implying you supply them with premium crimpers. A premium quality crimping tool is a fantastic thing to have, but it's no substitute for possessing fundamental skills.

Your argument is simplistic at best anyway. Should we just make people better drivers instead of putting ABS and airbags in cars?
If it were possible to eliminate all driver error, yes. That would eliminate any need for ABS and airbags. The difference is, it is not reasonable to expect all drivers to stop making errors. On the other hand, it is reasonable to expect a technician to be able to perform a proper wiring repair. It is a basic competence level skill.
 

Vvmvbb

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So the problem isn't the tool, it's the techs, but you still solve it by replacing the tool?

Given the choice, I will take the electrical repair by the excellent tech with the marginal crimper over the marginal tech with the excellent crimper, everyday, and twice on Sunday.

Eh, boy. Crimps are a touchy subject evidently.
When you are the boss, you are responsible for your guys' productivity and the quality of their work product. It's your job to let them succeed. You set the standards. Choose wisely. It's kind of a universal theme here on GJ and industry wide to buy productivity/quality tools when your meals are on the line.
And of course you won't get the choice you describe. You'll get the product of the techs you have. Hopefully you hired or inherited good ones. But even if you have the very best, what do you choose? You choose the best because they'll demand it.
 
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