Black & Decker vs DeWalt

[TheDesigner]

Cop out.

I didn't ask what you're working on. I know how NDA's work, and how you're not allowed to describe stuff.

I don't care about that, and didn't ask for that.

I asked what your job title was (You say "Designer"), and I asked what your function was. What do you do? What part of the product do you work on? Motors? Electronics? Casing? Overall mechanical? Overall look/feel/ergonomics?

Surely, you can answer that question without breaking any kind of NDA.

overall mechanical would be the best one out of those who discribe it. there is more to this then normal. if you dont believe me i can give you my cell number and you can call em and i can better discuss this. but it involves alot more then just us so im not sure what will and will not push the limits on this

 

[TheDesigner]

This post started off comparing QUALITY of one brand tool over another to justify the higher price, now The Designer (self admited employee of DeWalt Inc) states that the cost difference is due to a different color.

Was that a loud explosion noise I just heard coming from the DeWalt Marketing Department?

its alot more then that and ive said that... please read all my posts. the batterys alone are diffrent. same casing maybe (years back) cells? nope...

 

[-lecroix-]

Are you sure you're not an engineer? Because the apparent lack of a sense of humor states otherwise.

I was just attempting to insert some humor into this post, as feeble as my effort was at the humor part, I tried nonetheless to "lighten the mood."

Geesh ... tough crowd.

 

[TheDesigner]

Are you sure you're not an engineer? Because the apparent lack of a sense of humor states otherwise.

I was just attempting to insert some humor into this post, as feeble as my effort was at the humor part, I tried nonetheless to "lighten the mood."

Geesh ... tough crowd.

if your joking i can understand that... but didnt seem to come across that way.

and no im not an engineer. they dont get to do any of the fun stuff... IE hands on design work... get out there and test the stuff. they get to sit in the office go to meetings and all that.

 

[TheDesigner]

anyways im out here... ill be back on monday

kythri.. im serious if youd really like to know what i do here PM jason he has my number. call me any time and ill be happy to talk to you about it.

 

[kythri]

trade dress yada yada yada whatever.


anyway. give me 2 current drills a dewalt and black and decker that you feel are the same. and ill tell you if they are. your comparing 2 tools that were the same 10 or so years ago that were around the same time as the line was coming out and the other was coming to a close.

What's your point? Once again, I'll point out, in big bold letters:

AGE OF THE TOOL HAS NO BEARING ON THIS DISCUSSION.

The argument made what that DeWalt has, at times, done nothing more than rebadge a B&D model, and slapped a higher price tag on it. Not that they do it all the time, not that every B&D product is the same as DeWalt, but simply that it happens.

the dewalt may have came with diffrent batterys at the time. and just because they are both 18V doesnt mean they are both the same. the dewalt will have a higher amp hour cell. another cost upper.

A nominal cost, if the cells are even different at all. I'm well familiar with the pricing on various AH 1.2V NiCad cells. We're not trying to compare NiCad with Li-Ion here.

I'm also quite familiar with the sourcing of components, and know that when buying in bulk, it can quite commonly be cheaper to purchase a single model of a higher-priced component than it would be to purchase 50% higher price, and 50% lower-price.

 

[kythri]

anyways im out here... ill be back on monday

kythri.. im serious if youd really like to know what i do here PM jason he has my number. call me any time and ill be happy to talk to you about it.

I think we've pretty much settled this debate.

As for the phone call, it's really not that important - if you can't post the information here without violating a confidentiality agreement, I really don't see how you can discuss that information over the phone.

 

[eschoendorff]

I can solve this whole problem: buy Ridgid and Milwaukee tools. There, problem solved.

 

[stupidjet]

edit *nevermind, i dont care

 

[stupidjet]

BUT, i do think it's crazy that some of you believe a BD firestorm drill will hold up as well as a dewalt xrp.

 

[wilbilt]

Wow. Seem to be some emotions stirring now.

My original point, back in the other thread, was that when BD decided to resurrect the DeWalt brand due to poor BD sales in the professional market, they rebadged the BD tools as DeWalt in a new color, and sold them alongside the originals for a much higher price.

Thank you, kythri, for pointing this out...again.

It was a marketing ploy, and it worked...hook, line, and sinker.

The DW290 impact is an old design. It is a good design. It is also a Black & Decker design. The BD model I have is not 40 years old. It's close to 20 years old, and was sold alongside the yellow ones for less money, although it is the same tool.

The DW290 was (very) recently discontinued. It was superseded by the DW291 or DW292, which are the same design, only lacking the external brush access.

The same holds true for the drill models I listed. They were sold at retail, sometimes at the same stores, at widely separate price points, but are the same tool. At that time, most of the DeWalts came with the standard batteries instead of the XRs. They did have the fast charger, but was that worth paying 3X more for the set? The BD fast charger (same circuit board, yes...I checked) could be had for $25.

As far as the latest models, I have no idea. It's quite possible the BD brand has been "cheapened" and the DeWalt brand "strengthened", although I suspect there is still a lot of sharing going on. But that's not the point.

 

[wilbilt]

BTW, part number info came from http://www.toolpartsdirect.com

They have parts schematics, part numbers, and prices for many brands.
Once you have the schematic up, you can click on a part number in the right frame to see all of the tools it fits.

Browse around, you might be surprised.

 

[stupidjet]

dewalt is a marketing ploy. it's a Black and Decker Industrial (thats what my older tools are called) tool with a different name. who cares? my point is, dewalt is top notch, just like other top, industrial tool manufacturers.

 

[wilbilt]

dewalt is a marketing ploy. it's a Black and Decker Industrial (thats what my older tools are called) tool with a different name. who cares? my point is, dewalt is top notch, just like other top, industrial tool manufacturers.

Who cares? I care, if the BD is $50 and the DW is $150, but they are the same.
Tens of thousands of customers have been reamed in this deal...do you not get the point?

 

[kythri]

BUT, i do think it's crazy that some of you believe a BD firestorm drill will hold up as well as a dewalt xrp.

Wowsers.

Where the hell did ANYONE ever say that?!

I was pointing out my experience with a specific 12V Firestorm drill compared to another 12V DeWalt drill.

 

[stupidjet]

Who cares? I care, if the BD is $50 and the DW is $150, but they are the same.
Tens of thousands of customers have been reamed in this deal...do you not get the point?

BUT THEY ARE NOT THE SAME NOW!


youre talkin about tools from when BD changed from industrial to dewalt. get over it.

 

[stupidjet]

if the basic problem you guys have is with rebadging and not the product itself, quit your whining.

one, the products you speak of, are again, from years ago when there was a transition.

two, take a closer look at some of the other brands of tools you guys praise, from snap on they stick their name on someone elses product entirely and sells for 3x as much. as does craftsman, hitachi, etc

 

[kythri]

stupidjet: You know, what's funny is - we didn't necessarily say we had a problem with it (though, truthfully, I do have a problem when the SAME COMPANY rebadges their cheap line as their premium line). What started this entire debate is we said that they had done it, and some know-it-alls tried to deny such a practice had ever happened.

I'll give you the same advice I gave someone else: RTF thread. It does not matter whatsoever when a manufacturer did it, the fact is, they've done it - and quite probably, they still do it today.

The drills that I have direct experience with aren't from any kind of "transition" - they're from about 4-5 years ago. Year 2000+, 21st century. Get it?

I must say, I'm amused at your defense of the situation - "B&D/DeWalt isn't the only one who does that, look at Craftsman and Hitachi!"

I do believe that quite recently I myself pointed out how the Craftsman 19.2V line is the same tool as the Ryobi 18V line - and sells for 2-3 times as much.

I think I also commented on how the Craftsman ratcheting wrenches are, at times, more expensive than the GearWrenches that sit on the same shelf, 6 feet away - and we all know they're the same manufacturer.

OH MY GOODNESS! DID I REALLY?!

But that's besides the point. So Craftsman buys a product from another vendor, and stamps their brand on it, and sells it for a premium.

That's not the same situation as B&D/DeWalt, who are the same company, promoting a premium product line as "better" than their lower-end line.

And, seriously, man - learn to use proper punctuation and capitalization. You look like an illiterate idiot when you don't use it.

Does anyone else want to attempt to make a coherent argument?

 

[wilbilt]

BUT THEY ARE NOT THE SAME NOW!

Are you REALLY, REALLY SURE ABOUT THAT?

Don't be. If you are in the market for a DeWalt tool, whether it be a drywall screwgun, an angle grinder, a bench grinder, a circular saw, etc....it would be a good idea to do some research into what you are actually buying.

Unless, of course, you enjoy spending more for something just because it is yellow.

youre talkin about tools from when BD changed from industrial to dewalt. get over it.

I'll say it one more time, although I doubt you will comprehend it. The drill I referenced is NOT a "Pro", and it is NOT "Industrial".

It is a BD homeowner-grade tool bought off the shelf at Wal-Mart. It was puchased in 1999 or 2000, long after "BD changed from Industrial to DeWalt".

Every single part of the drill except the outer housing is the EXACT SAME PART used in the DeWalt model that was selling for much more money at the Home Depot across town.

Although the "current" parts/price lists don't seem to be generally available, it is a virtual certainty that this practice continues across the majority of the product line.
Am I whining? Hell no, because I bought the BD instead of the DeWalt.

My point is that it pays to do some research before spending your hard-earned cash. If you enjoy being ripped off, then by all means keep the blinders on and remain in denial.

 

[wilbilt]

What started this entire debate is we said that they had done it, and some know-it-alls tried to deny such a practice had ever happened.

Excellent point.

How did these roomers(sp) ever get started?

Uhh...probably because it's a fact, not a rumor...LOL

I must say, I'm amused at your defense of the situation - "B&D/DeWalt isn't the only one who does that, look at Craftsman and Hitachi!"

That's interesting, too. While browsing those BD parts lists, I saw many references to Craftsman models in saws, drills, grinders, etc. It's a different situation, though, as Sears is a different company than BD/DeWalt.

 

[stupidjet]

stupidjet:

I must say, I'm amused at your defense of the situation - "B&D/DeWalt isn't the only one who does that, look at Craftsman and Hitachi!"

you forgot snap on, a company you rave about who sell products much in the same way. but no, you defend them. you spend your hard earned money on that.

my whole point before this went off was that dewalt makes quality tools and i know from experience. and no, i'm not going to do my research by breaking down parts lists b/c if i did, i wouldnt be able to buy this computer i'm on, my truck, my cars, my tv, equipment, even my favorite cereal. i guess these companies got me right where that want me, eh?

 

[wilbilt]

no, i'm not going to do my research by breaking down parts lists b/c if i did, i wouldnt be able to buy this computer i'm on, my truck, my cars, my tv, equipment, even my favorite cereal. i guess these companies got me right where that want me, eh?

Often you can tell just by looking at something, but....

The color...it must be the color...

 

[stupidjet]

yup, youre right, b/c it's pretty yellow. i guess you didnt read the thread explaining my experience with these tools.

 

[wilbilt]

yup, youre right, b/c it's pretty yellow. i guess you didnt read the thread explaining my experience with these tools.

Yes, I did.
I'm saying you can have the same good experience in a different color for a lot less money, if you take the time to look at the options.

Never mind, have a great day.

 

[1320stang]

Okay, I have a direct experience with a DW945 Versa Clutch 12v 3/8" VSR drill, serial number 294466 that I believe I bought in 1991, maybe 1992 and a Firestorm that was probably 5 years newer (and brand new at the time), it was built like a later model Dewalt, you could stand it on it's battery.

My friend was selling his rent house and needed to put new carpet in it. It was a old house with a crawl space and t&g oak flooring. The house had been added on years ago and had some plywood flooring at the back of the house, but the oak flooring was unsalvageable as a finished floor.

He asked me to help him screw down the oak floor as it was buckling and very creaky. He has a 50# box of screws and his brand new Firestorm 12v drill. My old Dewalt would drive far more screws on a charge and he almost burned up that drill.

He still has the drill, it worked, but the batteries and the charger died. He also has a Skil with the same problem, dead batteries and charger. I've replaced the pair of batteries on my Dewalt once (one didn't last but about 2 years) but it's still going strong (maybe they'll send me a new 9 piece kit, sorta like the guy that put a million miles on his Volvo, hint hint).

I bought a Dewalt 18v drill/recip combo kit, I was wanting a new drill and I wanted a cordless recip to take to salvage yards to cut body panels off cars. I also have a corded Milwaukee Super Sawzall that I rarely use because of convienience. I have a Quantum corded circular saw BD3100 that I bought around the same time I bought my 12v drill. I bought it because the Dewalt was about $80 more. The molded case was exactly the same as the Dewalt, except green. The trigger and blade stop button are Dewalt yellow as is the guide at the slot in the bottom plate. As I recall, the motor specs were a little bit better on the Dewalt than the Quantum and I think the bottom plate on the Dewalt was a little heavier guage. It still works great, but the bottom plate is a little bent.

My friend bought a 12v Makita about the same time I bought my Dewalt, it's been dead for about 7 years, still lasted him a good 8 years, but his was used similarly to my Dewalt, not in everyday use.

 

[kythri]

you forgot snap on, a company you rave about who sell products much in the same way. but no, you defend them. you spend your hard earned money on that.

Snap-On may do that, but I've never raved about them. Obviously, you're not reading posts here. I don't defend them, and I don't spend money on them.

my whole point before this went off was that dewalt makes quality tools and i know from experience. and no, i'm not going to do my research by breaking down parts lists b/c if i did, i wouldnt be able to buy this computer i'm on, my truck, my cars, my tv, equipment, even my favorite cereal. i guess these companies got me right where that want me, eh?

Here's a piece of advice: before attempting to argue a point, go back and read the thread - multiple times if need be.

Your whole point is that you have no point whatsoever. You didn't read what we wrote, and you're trying to argue something that was never an issue.

Did anyone ever say that DeWalt didn't make quality tools? We argued that some DeWalt tools are rebadged B&D tools.

How the heck are you folks able to infer some of these things from the words on your screen?!

Nobody said DeWalt wasn't quality. For that matter, it was even pointed out a number of times that B&D makes GOOD stuff.

My DeWalt 12V drill is bulletproof. It's almost 7 years old, and it still works like it was new. The two NiCad batteries that came with it are still going strong. This is a quality drill, and I still use it quite a bit.

If the Firestorm drill that I have experience with is identical to the DeWalt drill I own (and it was), then it, too, is an excellent drill.

On a side topic, I find it funny that you say if you spent mere minutes researching a product - research made quite a bit easier by a link or links that wilbilt posted here, you wouldn't be able to buy stuff. You have time to post incoherent ramblings here, but you don't have time to do pre-purchase product research.

Well, alright then!

 

[kythri]

yup, youre right, b/c it's pretty yellow. i guess you didnt read the thread explaining my experience with these tools.

You're supposed to read people's posts before responding?!

But...but...that wouldn't allow you to go off on a tangent, and start ranting about something that never happened!

 

[kythri]

*SNIP*

Yes. Lots of DeWalt is good, DeWalt is quality. We know, and we agree. That point is NOT in dispute, nor was it ever.

I'm really not trying to be an *** here (and I'm sure I'm failing at that), but, seriously, folks - PLEASE, read read read read read read read read read the post!!

 

[1320stang]

I did read the first post. My point was, my Dewalt outperformed a later model Firestorm that you guys are saying is just a rebadged Dewalt. If it was a rebadged Dewalt, wouldn't it perform the same? Or since it was a later model, wouldn't it perform better?

You can make the argument that Dewalt rebadged the B&D line when they first came out, okay, but that's been about 20 years ago. What Dewalt tools sold today are just rebadged B&D tools?

 

[kythri]

We did not say that every Firestorm is a rebadged DeWalt.

You read the first post? Did you miss this little gem:

In some cases, yes, they're different.

In other cases, they're identical.

???

Please point out where anyone issued a blanket declaration that all B&D is the same as all DeWalt.

Ah, screw it. Too many people don't know how to read/comprehend.

This issue has been beaten to death. I'm out. Please carry on with claiming we said something we didn't.

Have a nice day.

 

[wilbilt]

I did read the first post. My point was, my Dewalt outperformed a later model Firestorm that you guys are saying is just a rebadged Dewalt. If it was a rebadged Dewalt, wouldn't it perform the same? Or since it was a later model, wouldn't it perform better?

You can make the argument that Dewalt rebadged the B&D line when they first came out, okay, but that's been about 20 years ago. What Dewalt tools sold today are just rebadged B&D tools?

The particular models in question were listed, along with the part numbers of all the components.

It was also stated these were more recent models than "20 years ago".

Which two models are you using in your comparison? Do they use the same components? If you answer "I don't know" to either of those questions, then how valid is your comparison?

Obviously, two tools using the exact same components would be expected to perform similarly. If they did not, then they were probably not using the same parts...but how would we know that based on the information you posted?

 

[KeukaDan]

I agree this has been beat to death but if you read the original Harbor freight thread that this was a takeoff from, the statement was made that all Dewalt are rebadged Black and Decker's, that is where this whole argument started from. That may not have been the intention of the post but it never said that a few tools were rebadged, it refered to all Dewalt's being rebadged B&D for 3x the cost, read it for yourself.

 

[wilbilt]

I agree this has been beat to death but if you read the original Harbor freight thread that this was a takeoff from, the statement was made that all Dewalt are rebadged Black and Decker's, that is where this whole argument started from. That may not have been the intention of the post but it never said that a few tools were rebadged, it refered to all Dewalt's being rebadged B&D for 3x the cost, read it for yourself.

I believe in the initial "resurrection" of the DeWalt brand (1991-92?), ALL of the tools were rebadged B&D. A little Googling will result in several articles related to this. As the DW line expanded, there were (and are) tools that are exclusive to DW, although dual-branding occurred long after the initial launch. The part numbers don't lie.

In my opinion, it is still happening with current models, although the cordless lines seem to be pretty well diverged at this point. There are still some "throwbacks", such as the "Compact Series" that still use those common batteries in the 12, 14.4 and 18V lines. Those would be suspect, IMHO.

The lines across the pond are muddled as well, with tools on those lists showing common parts between BD, DW, and ELU.

There are a lot more tools being produced than just the cordless models, and I would do a lot of poking around under the hood before buying the yellow one based on the name. This would include stationary tools as well as corded drills, angle grinders, etc.

And yes, it has been beat to death. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him think.

 

[l_bilyk]

I'm with wilbilt on this one

When dewalt was bought out, the tools were rebadged black and decker pro and a few from the regular line. Today all of them are different. Some still share parts, most don't.

Why did this even get to 4 pages?