Blackhawk ratchet question (maybe problem?)

[Notwerk]

So, I purchased two Blackhawk ratchets and something doesn't seem right about them. I'm hoping someone can confirm my fears or at least enlighten me.

The particular ratchets in question are model numbers 34946b and 9955b. Both are billed as having a dual pawl design and sub-5-degree arc. But it certainly doesn't seem that way with my two copies. On the 3/8 ratchet, I count only 41 clicks. On the 1/4, I count 43. Am I correct in thinking that a 41-tooth, dual pawl ratchet should click 82 times per rotation?

It's also strange that my two ratchets don't have the tri-wing selector pictured in the Stanley catalog.

I'm not really sure what to make of this. It seems fishy, but maybe I'm misunderstanding something. I plan to give Stanley a call tomorrow on my lunch break and see if I can get some answers, but if you have any advice, I'd sure appreciate it. Thanks.

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EDIT: Stanley's website was wrong. After I called them up, they checked it out and admitted they erred in the product description. Blackhawk does not produce a dual-pawl ratchet of any sort. The correct description should have read:

41 teeth, 8.8 degree arc single pawl for the 3/8
43 teeth, 8.4 degree arc single pawl for the 1/4

Way to go Stanley...

 

[Bull]

This post reminds me that you sent me a message about this. I don't know the answer, which I had meant to tell you. I am sure someone will be along shortly with the 411.

 

[kxxr]

So, I purchased two Blackhawk ratchets and something doesn't seem right about them. I'm hoping someone can confirm my fears or at least enlighten me.

The particular ratchets in question are model numbers 34946b and 9955b. Both are billed as having a dual pawl design and sub-5-degree arc. But it certainly doesn't seem that way with my two copies. On the 3/8 ratchet, I count only 41 clicks. On the 1/4, I count 43. Am I correct in thinking that a 41-tooth, dual pawl ratchet should click 82 times per rotation?

It's also strange that my two ratchets don't have the tri-wing selector pictured in the Stanley catalog.

I'm not really sure what to make of this. It seems fishy, but maybe I'm misunderstanding something. I plan to give Stanley a call tomorrow on my lunch break and see if I can get some answers, but if you have any advice, I'd sure appreciate it. Thanks.

Here is a quote from a 2010 post by Mickey O that would seem to support your expectation:
Anyhow I was doing some work and needed a ratchet, I grabbed the 699 because I just cleaned it up and it was sitting on top of my tool box. I'm using it and it seems like one of the finest tooth ratchet I have ever used, seemed odd because it's so old. I counted the teeth by rotating it a 1/4 turn and came up with 20, I was surprised. So I looked over at Alloy Artifacts and here is what I found in part:

During the 1930s and 40s much effort was devoted to improving ratchet mechanisms, especially for the "round-head" designs with fine-tooth actions. While others looked for ways to make finer teeth, the engineers at Duro Metal Products came up with a strikingly novel idea. Instead of adding more teeth to the gear, they added a second pawl to the mechanism, with the teeth of one pawl offset from the other by half a pitch. Then as the ratchet turned to get a new "bite", the pawls would alternately drop into position, thereby effectively doubling the number of teeth. The inventor W.H. Odlum and collaborators were awarded patent #2,395,681 in 1946.

The dual-pawl action can be heard clearly when the ratchet is turned slowly, with the two pawls making slightly different clicking sounds as they fall into place. The Duro catalogs advertised this as having "80 tooth action" without describing its 40-tooth gear and dual pawls.

One interesting aspect of the construction is that the ratchet has been permanently assembled by compressing flanges in the head. link to full write up at alloy artifacts (http://home.comcast.net/~alloy-artifacts/totw_duro_699_ratchet.html)

And, here's a link to the patent drawings for the Duro design:
http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=RvxWAAAAEBAJ&dq=patent:2395681&as_psrg=1

Could your Blackhawks have a variation on the design where the pawls click into place simultaneously rather than alternately? In that case you would only hear as many clicks as there are teeth but the design would theoretically have greater (double?) holding strength.
Do your ratchets have a patent number on them?

 

[Wrenches of Death]

The dual-pawl action can be heard clearly when the ratchet is turned slowly, with the two pawls making slightly different clicking sounds as they fall into place. The Duro catalogs advertised this as having "80 tooth action" without describing its 40-tooth gear and dual pawls.

I've got a dual pawl 3/8" Proto Challenger 1206D that will do exactly that. It will make two different distinct clicks are you turn its innards very slowly.

I pulled it apart and cleaned it a while back and remember counting 41 teeth inside of the head. I've attempted to count the actual clicks a number of times and it is extremely tedious. I've never gotten the full 82 because I can't maintain any degree of consistently while I'm rotating it.

Maybe if it had a longer handle or if I was younger.

WoD

 

[Notwerk]

Could your Blackhawks have a variation on the design where the pawls click into place simultaneously rather than alternately? In that case you would only hear as many clicks as there are teeth but the design would theoretically have greater (double?) holding strength.
Do your ratchets have a patent number on them?

My ratchets are pictured above, model numbers 34946b and 9955b. It's possible that the double pawl is simultaneous, but if it was, then it wouldn't accomplish its stated goal of doubling the tooth count.

According to Stanley's online catalog listing, the 3/8 ratchet has a "41 tooth design, double pawl. Equal to having 82 teeth." I would expect this to mean that it should click 82 times, but it clearly doesn't. Just 41 clicks.

It's really strange. When I got the 3/8 ratchet (they shipped separately), I figured that maybe it had been fitted with the wrong mechanism somehow. Maybe it was just a freak error. But when the 1/4 ratchet arrived and did the same thing, I was really scratching my head. I still think I may be right about this theory. Blackhawk does manufacture a lower end ratchet that has a 41-tooth, single pawl. But it certainly shouldn't be in this ratchet, which is costlier.

If they're cramming the cheaper kit into the more expensive ratchet, while continuing to claim a sub-5-degree arc, there's something very fishy going on at Blackhawk...

 

[SMKS]

They're easy to open up. Then you can see if it has a dual pawl.

 

[Notwerk]

Fishy indeed. Just got off the phone with Stanley, and it turns out I was right. The truth is that Blackhawk doesn't produce a dual-pawl ratchet, despite what the website says. Looks like I'm screwed, too, because I bought through Toolfetch and not a distributor so Stanley won't be doing anything for me even though they made a rather large mistake. I'll go ahead and update my original post in case anyone else should be considering these ratchets.

 

[Wrenches of Death]

Fishy indeed. Just got off the phone with Stanley, and it turns out I was right. The truth is that Blackhawk doesn't produce a dual-pawl ratchet, despite what the website says..

Will a round head Proto repair kit fit it? The general design of your ratchet looks identical to my old Proto Challenger 1260D. I know for a fact that it is a dual pawl and the spare 1260DRK repair kit that I have for it is a dual pawl design.

WoD

 

[Notwerk]

I honestly don't know, but I arranged for an RMA so I don't want to open these up. I'm going to get stuck paying shipping though which is frustrating because it was their error and had I not called, they'd have no idea that they had been misrepresenting their product for months. They owe me a beer, at least, I figure.

Toolfetch tells me they removed it from their webstore altogether, but Stanley still hasn't fixed it on their site. I hope people considering these at least find this thread before they make the same mistake I did.

Should have just gone with Williams from the get go...

 

[Wrenches of Death]

I honestly don't know, but I arranged for an RMA so I don't want to open these up. I'm going to get stuck paying shipping though which is frustrating because it was their error and had I not called, they'd have no idea that they had been misrepresenting their product for months. They owe me a beer, at least, I figure.

Should have just gone with Williams from the get go...

PM me to catch my attention if you end up keeping it and want to compare measurements between my Challenger and your Blackhawk. I've be curious myself to see if the kits would interchange. I bet that they would.

About the Williams, I'm not sure that the current crop of Williams ratchets are still dual pawl. The old B-52 series that they built for fifty years was. I'm pretty sure that the newer models are something like a B-52A and is a clone of the previous generation Snap-on design. Strong as hell and durable, but not what anyone would consider a fine tooth ratchet today. 36 teeth, I think.

Which reminds me, I need to track down a kit for a Williams B-52.

WoD

 

[SMKS]

I'm not sure that the current crop of Williams ratchets are still dual pawl. The old B-52 series that they built for fifty years was. I'm pretty sure that the newer models are something like a B-52A and is a clone of the previous generation Snap-on design.

They still make the dual pawl Superratchets, but they don't call them "Superratchets" anymore. This is the B-52A round head ratchet.

They also offer a slightly reworked version of the Snap-On 36-tooth design. Here's the B-52EHA (Enclosed Head Ratchet)

 

[Notwerk]

I'd like to help, but I think I'm just going to send them back I can take some measurements from the outside and get you some macro photos, but I know those aren't of too much use. Don't want to open them, since I'm returning them.

You'd think I learned my lesson by now, but according to the Williams catalog, the B-52 roundhead is using a "dual pawl, 72-tooth" design. That has to be wrong, though. Must have meant single pawl, 72 tooth. Either way, it works out to a 5 degree arc, so I would be happy with that.

Toolsdelivered does seem to offer a repair kit for a B-52, though.

 

[Wrenches of Death]

They still make the dual pawl Superratchets, but they don't call them that anymore. This is the B-52A round head ratchet.

They also offer a slightly reworked version of the Snap-On 36-tooth design. Here's the B-52EHA

Thanks for posting that! I thought that they had dropped the dual pawl design.

WoD

 

[SMKS]

according to the Williams catalog, the B-52 roundhead is using a "dual pawl, 72-tooth" design. That has to be wrong, though.

They do use a dual pawl design. In fact, here's a link to the original patent.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=9A...=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false


Here is a pic I stole from another GJ thread. This is an older ratchet, but the design is still basically the same. It's hard to see the second pawl in this pic, because of way the head kit is positioned.

Here's another picture taken from another forum.

 

[Notwerk]

They do use a dual pawl design. In fact, here's a link to the original patent.

Cool, thanks. I stand corrected. So, I assume that it's 36 teeth x two pawls=72 teeth?

 

[NinetyTwoFifty]

You sure? I thought the new Williams round heads have a single floating pawl like the Facoms.

 

[SCscoutguy]

I just took one of these apart and it is not a dual pawl ratchet. Also I just took this out of the package yesterday and it is dry as a bone inside. They must not lube them at all at the factory.

 

[Notwerk]

Well, the model I had was the 34946B, with the smooth, polished handle. A bit more expensive than the model you disassembled. The handle, it seems, is the only difference, despite what Stanley indicated on their website (grainger and a thousand other sites also copied Stanley's incorrect specifications.)

So, to sum up, all Blackhawk ratchets are single-pawl design, no matter what you read on the web.

 

[SMKS]

You sure? I thought the new Williams round heads have a single floating pawl like the Facoms.

I've never heard that. As far as I know, it is still a similar design. I just went to the Williams' website and here is what is says in the catalog about the B-52A ratchet:

Features
-Double pawl design with 72 teeth action provides a 5° ratcheting angle.
-Shift lever reverses action instantly.
-Knurled handle provides a non-slip grip.
-Chrome finish models provides increased protection from rust and corrosion.

 

[64merc]

I requested a rebuild kit once for a B-52A and it was not a dual pawl design. IIRC it was completely different than the old B-52 design. I believe it was a floating pawl with a little heart shaped spring thingy. This design is used elsewhere, but I forget now where I have seen it.

 

[NinetyTwoFifty]

I requested a rebuild kit once for a B-52A and it was not a dual pawl design. IIRC it was completely different than the old B-52 design. I believe it was a floating pawl with a little heart shaped spring thingy. This design is used elsewhere, but I forget now where I have seen it.

That sounds like the Facom type.

 

[tuzzy]

Thanks to this forum I was able to fix my ratchet after I sucked a rubber latex glove into the mechanism. I tossed my other ratchets when they stopped working. I liked this one so much that I spent the effort to get online to learn how to dissable it.

So even though its late I thought I would contribute something back - Blackhawk 34549a round head ratchet is dual pawl and counts 82 clicks when rotated.

thanks again.

 

[toolmutt]

I realize this thread is a year old but I just saw it. I also bought a Blackhawk 34946B ratchet a few years ago based on the dual pawl description. However, when I received the ratchet, it was just as yours; not dual pawl and no tri-wing selector as pictured. I called the vendor, MSC Industrial Supply, who added Stanley/Proto customer service to make a three way conference call. Both customer service agents were very courteous and helpful, BTW. After some discussion and research, Stanley sent me the ratchet repair kit for the 34946B (pictured below) which was dual pawl.

Problem solved? Not entirely. I put the new mechanism in and it seemed just a bit loose to me. Not sloppy, mind you, but not right enough that I would be hesitant to put some real force on the ratchet for fear of it slipping. I played with it some more but finally decided to leave the original mechanism in.

On a whim, though, I put the new mechanism into a new Husky (import) round head ratchet head. It is now the most butter smooth ratchet I own, even smoother than my F80.

In the photos below, the new dual pawl mechanism is on the left. Hope this info helps.

 

[Notwerk]

Holy thread revival, I wasn't expecting to see this one come back to life.

Seems like Stanley's house isn't quite in order. I actually returned that ratchet after a phone call with Stanley tech support. They informed me that the dual-pawl reference was a typographical error. The rep was nice and, after getting the answer from their engineering department, checked with her boss to see if there was anything they could do for me. Ultimately, they decided there was nothing to be done because, in her words, they simply didn't make a product that fit my requirements.

Except that it now seems they sort of did. Maybe. It's a shame because, honestly, it was a damn nice looking ratchet. Comfortable with some of the nicest chrome I've ever seen. If it had been as advertised, I would have been real happy with it.

Do you know, by chance, what the part number for that repair kit was? I have an old USA Husky around. I wonder if it would swap into that.

 

[Notwerk]

Thanks to this forum I was able to fix my ratchet after I sucked a rubber latex glove into the mechanism. I tossed my other ratchets when they stopped working. I liked this one so much that I spent the effort to get online to learn how to dissable it.

So even though its late I thought I would contribute something back - Blackhawk 34549a round head ratchet is dual pawl and counts 82 clicks when rotated.

thanks again.

Does your ratchet have the tri-wing selector? I wonder if that's the tip off for the double-pawl question. The one I had bought and returned did not have a tri-wing selector, and it was mostly certainly not a "fine-tooth" ratchet.

 

[toolmutt]

Do you know, by chance, what the part number for that repair kit was? I have an old USA Husky around. I wonder if it would swap into that.

The tag on the package that it came in had the number 34946BR. It is still listed on their website here. I don't know if it is still actually available or not, or if it is still the dual pawl or not.

The tri-wing thing may be a clue. Here are some pics of the original Blackhawk ratchet (not tri-wing) and the Husky ratchet with the replacement mechanism installed (tri-wing). In the photo of the two guts side by side, you can see that the original, non-dual pawl has a satin finish similar to SCscoutguy's 34945B but the replacement is more of a polished chrome finish like tuzzy's 34946"a" model.

 

[crankshaftdan II]

I have these available for $5.00ea. + shipping($2-3) lower 48. Questions about if they fit your particular ratchets????? e-mail w/questions etc.....Cranky

 

[SCscoutguy]

You could always look on ebay and see if you could find some of those older ratchets. These don't look to bad for the money.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Blackhawk-1...094?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4167722906
This one is a smooth handle tri-wing.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Blackhawk-Q...897?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19d24c5781

 

[tuzzy]

Does your ratchet have the tri-wing selector? I wonder if that's the tip off for the double-pawl question. The one I had bought and returned did not have a tri-wing selector, and it was mostly certainly not a "fine-tooth" ratchet.

yes it does