Blocking an electric meter?

[smittyjones]

Long story short, we have a new boss and he's all gung ho about moving stuff that doesn't need to be moved and throwing away stuff that doesn't need thrown away and painting stuff that doesn't need painted.

He said the EPA says we can't have this used oil tank "within 30 feet of a drain" or it's a $100k fine. But there's nowhere within the shop that's 30 feet from a drain.

So he moved it outside. Way out back, 100 feet from the closest guy that uses it. It's a pain.

But his genius placement is in this little cubby that our electric meter is in. I know an electrical panel can't be blocked, but can an electric meter?

 

[CrashmanS]

You should find out when they come to read the meter!

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[NUTTSGT]

I believe breaker panels are to have like 3' clearance in front of them. I would think that meter bases are the same. I'm pretty sure if we were out on an inspection, the inspector in charge would have that as an issue that needs corrected.

BTW, I'm moving this to the Electrical Section, those guy will be able to easily rattle off the information that you are seeking.

 

[egnorant]

That is a question for your local codes. Mine has rules about how high and access so the employee reading it could physically see it. Now we have changed to remote read meters and, while the code still exists, it is a non-issue.

 

[smittyjones]

That is a question for your local codes. Mine has rules about how high and access so the employee reading it could physically see it. Now we have changed to remote read meters and, while the code still exists, it is a non-issue.

Yeah it's one of those smart meters so they don't even have to come out to check it, but I didn't know if there was something safety related to it.

Basically I want an excuse to not have to go forever away to empty my oil drain lol.

 

[exranger06]

I don't know if there's a written code, but the meter should be accessible. The electric utility should have a policy that says so. The meter belongs to them and they have a right to access it for whatever reason.

 

[rlitman]

...The meter belongs to them and they have a right to access it for whatever reason.

Well, sort of.

Just like any meter, the meter can be located in a secured area (such as indoors), where the meter reader (or anyone sent by the utility) would have to request access.

However, you do not have to grant access 24x7x365. Nobody expects you to be home all the time. The utility will have a policy that if after so many months requesting access they were continuously denied access to their meter, then they'll be able to cut you off. There will probably be some certified letters in that time frame, etc.

Anyway, my guess is that if this is a smart meter, then you can always just wait until the utility asks for access, and then move the tank.

However, the problem I see with leaving that tank outside, is that the container is not rated for UV exposure. That IBC tank will become brittle and start to leak. Used oil leaking on the ground is just as big an EPA no-no as being near a drain.

I would have your boss check with the EPA person who told them about keeping it away from a drain, and ask if it can be placed anywhere you want, so long as it has a proper "secondary spill containment". You can buy a pre-made spill containment for IBC tanks too. Just put the tank on the containment, and you're good to go. Really, even outdoors, it should have some sort of protection from being able to leak onto the ground, though a normal pallet containment would fill with rainwater.

 

[ishiboo]

As exranger said, the electric company has the absolute say about the meter's accessibility for them. They would definitely not allow it to be blocked with a large heavy object like that.

 

[smittyjones]

Anyway, my guess is that if this is a smart meter, then you can always just wait until the utility asks for access, and then move the tank.

Spectacular, I really hope it has like 300 gallons of oil in it when they do come.

 

[rlitman]

As exranger said, the electric company has the absolute say about the meter's accessibility for them. They would definitely not allow it to be blocked with a large heavy object like that.

Blocked by a large heavy object like a locked door? It's commonplace for a utility to not have direct access to a meter. They leave a note on your door, and say they'll be back. It takes a whole bunch of those notes before they consider more serious actions.

And being that this is a smart meter, nobody will probably be the wiser for this for at least a decade. Though that tank will not last a decade out in the sun (as I mentioned above), and the EPA will have you shut down when they find out about the oil leak outside.

 

[smittyjones]

However, the problem I see with leaving that tank outside, is that the container is not rated for UV exposure. That IBC tank will become brittle and start to leak. Used oil leaking on the ground is just as big an EPA no-no as being near a drain.

I would have your boss check with the EPA person who told them about keeping it away from a drain, and ask if it can be placed anywhere you want, so long as it has a proper "secondary spill containment". You can buy a pre-made spill containment for IBC tanks too. Just put the tank on the containment, and you're good to go. Really, even outdoors, it should have some sort of protection from being able to leak onto the ground, though a normal pallet containment would fill with rainwater.

That's pretty much what I told him. How is it any better being outside than near a drain? I'll probably get some BS reasoning though, lol.

 

[ishiboo]

Blocked by a large heavy object like a locked door? It's commonplace for a utility to not have direct access to a meter. They leave a note on your door, and say they'll be back. It takes a whole bunch of those notes before they consider more serious actions.

And being that this is a smart meter, nobody will probably be the wiser for this for at least a decade. Though that tank will not last a decade out in the sun (as I mentioned above), and the EPA will have you shut down when they find out about the oil leak outside.

So what? He is looking for a reason for the tank to not be placed there - perfect, because it's not allowed. Yes, it's a smart meter so it could be decades to find out... so what? It's still the policy that it is not allowed. Problem solved.

A locked door in front of an electrical panel/meter can/etc. is also very different than a large immovable-without-a-forklift object storing 275 gallons of flammable liquid in a container not designed for it.

 

[ishiboo]

Well, sort of.

Just like any meter, the meter can be located in a secured area (such as indoors), where the meter reader (or anyone sent by the utility) would have to request access.

However, you do not have to grant access 24x7x365. Nobody expects you to be home all the time. The utility will have a policy that if after so many months requesting access they were continuously denied access to their meter, then they'll be able to cut you off. There will probably be some certified letters in that time frame, etc.

Anyway, my guess is that if this is a smart meter, then you can always just wait until the utility asks for access, and then move the tank.

However, the problem I see with leaving that tank outside, is that the container is not rated for UV exposure. That IBC tank will become brittle and start to leak. Used oil leaking on the ground is just as big an EPA no-no as being near a drain.

I would have your boss check with the EPA person who told them about keeping it away from a drain, and ask if it can be placed anywhere you want, so long as it has a proper "secondary spill containment". You can buy a pre-made spill containment for IBC tanks too. Just put the tank on the containment, and you're good to go. Really, even outdoors, it should have some sort of protection from being able to leak onto the ground, though a normal pallet containment would fill with rainwater.

Again, it is the utilities policy which defines this. Just because yours allows that does not mean others do. And none will allow what has been done there.

Our companies policy reads (for this size service, larger 3-phase commercial installations are allowed indoor metering - still can't put a 275 gallon tank of oil in front blocking it.)

Meters shall be installed in an accessible location to enable them to be safely read, inspected and tested at reasonable times with a minimum of inconvenience to the customer and Company. The electric meter shall be outside. Effort shall be made to locate Company gas and electric meters in the same general area.

 

[Orionrising]

Your fire department would have big issue with that.. keeps em from pulling the meter in a fire...

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[yeldogt]

It's a non issue until someone needs to get to it --

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Meter needs to be accessable.

 

[Falcon67]

Not sure about the electric tarriff but the water utility tarriff in this state allows the utility to guess at a reading anytime they can't get an actual reading. Probably don't want that either.

 

[rlitman]

Your fire department would have big issue with that.. keeps em from pulling the meter in a fire...

I don't know of any fire departments here that touch meters. They call the utility when it is needed. The utility will disconnect you at the pole using a hot stick. The FD could probably do that too, or shut off the disconnect on the transformer.

Anyway, how does an FD deal with a customer with a CT meter?

 

[Orionrising]

May be a rural thing, when the electric folk are hour or more away it's what they did when I was in VA anyway.

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[rlitman]

Not sure about the electric tarriff but the water utility tarriff in this state allows the utility to guess at a reading anytime they can't get an actual reading. Probably don't want that either.

I'm sure that's the same in most places. Around here, they are allowed to estimate on a bill if the meter was not read. Doesn't really matter if the meter was blocked by snow, or the reader took the day off, etc. They'll sometimes leave you a note where you can submit a self reading, but they are required by law to get an actual reading at least once a year (after which, they will disconnect service, and your building will shortly be condemned and padlocked). However, nobody needs to "read" a smart meter for the utility to get a reading.

That is all assuming that is even a "smart" meter. Many digital meters are not smart meters, and do not allow for remote reading.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

It looks like thats more than just a meter pan as its quite large for a meter pan and I see at least 4 large conduits coming out of it.

Im guessing thats the main service panel in which case that tank is a big no-no..need 36" clearance in front of panel and 30" on the sides but does not have to be centered...

 

[johnnyradiant]

That meter base is a connection point that could in the fire dept's eyes be a spark hazard and they would want the immediate area clear of combustibles. Along with other policies by-laws other authorities/providers might have also. Not likely to be forced to move it for quite some time but still likely not allowed by one or more parties with some sorta jurisdiction on the matter. The funny thing about the logic given for moving the tank is it seems to be the same reason for not being near a floor drain but potentially even worse. You could drop a plug on a drain a lot faster than containing a leak on ground running everywhere that the EPA doesn't want it too. You'd probably be way ahead of the game with a monitored drip tray under the tank 6" away from your inside floor drain.

 

[DC73]

Basically I want an excuse to not have to go forever away to empty my oil drain lol.

Around here, the power company wouldn't allow what you've shown in your photo. But, your boss is right about moving it away from the drains. There might be another option.

Can you move the tank back where it was, and then build containment around it to prevent oil from getting into the drains if it were to leak? You'll need to be able to contain the entire contents of the tank when full. The EPA used to allow those types of installations. Sometimes it's as simple as pouring a concrete curb around an area. I remember seeing one such installation where a metal containment tray was built under a tank with a drain line through an exterior wall to a larger containment area.

DC

 

[smittyjones]

Around here, the power company wouldn't allow what you've shown in your photo. But, your boss is right about moving it away from the drains. There might be another option.

Can you move the tank back where it was, and then build containment around it to prevent oil from getting into the drains if it were to leak? You'll need to be able to contain the entire contents of the tank when full. The EPA used to allow those types of installations. Sometimes it's as simple as pouring a concrete curb around an area. I remember seeing one such installation where a metal containment tray was built under a tank with a drain line through an exterior wall to a larger containment area.

DC

Do you happen to know where the "can't be near drains" thing is? All I can really find is that your container has to be in good condition. There's a page called "Laws and regulations for used oil" on the EPA sight when I search, but it's page not found when I click.

Can't really do anything with where it was though, it was between two bays.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Do u know if there are any breakers inside that panel?

 

[Norcal]

May be causing more trouble then it's worth, but could call OSHA.

 

[bczygan]

He's the boss.

Why are you even worrying about it?

 

[Git]

He's the boss.

Why are you even worrying about it?

Because he doesn't want to walk that far....

Ya, that's it - call OSHA or the EPA. Your boss would never know it was you.. lmao

 

[NUTTSGT]

I don't know of any fire departments here that touch meters. They call the utility when it is needed. The utility will disconnect you at the pole using a hot stick. The FD could probably do that too, or shut off the disconnect on the transformer.

Anyway, how does an FD deal with a customer with a CT meter?

It's going to depend on the locality and what the PoCo might want or not want. Generally, we won't pull the meter and we call the PoCo. However, if we need to, we will pull the meter if the conditions require that the power needs killed now.

We also have a few blanks to stick in place of the removed meter . . . although according to the PoCo, we're not supposed to have them.... wonder where they came from ?


CT meter, had to Google that. What I see there, we don't have around here that I know of.

 

[ADSR]

Meter needs to be accessable.

It is.... with binoculars

 

[slip knot]

It is.... with binoculars

This ^^^. my POCO did this for years before they went to smart meters

 

[manwithtools]

It's going to depend on the locality and what the PoCo might want or not want. Generally, we won't pull the meter and we call the PoCo. However, if we need to, we will pull the meter if the conditions require that the power needs killed now.

We also have a few blanks to stick in place of the removed meter . . . although according to the PoCo, we're not supposed to have them.... wonder where they came from ?


CT meter, had to Google that. What I see there, we don't have around here that I know of.

Most three phase service entrances to commercial buildings over a certain amperage (depends on the utility and application) will have CT meters. I'm sure they are everywhere around you, you just may not have paid attention to them.

Next time you are near a commercial business, take a look at the incoming service, if there are "doughnut" looking coils that the PoCo wires pass through next to the point of connection to the building, then it's a CT meter setup.

By the way, both of my meters are inside my second garage, strange setup, but that's the way it is.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

It is.... with binoculars

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Most three phase service entrances to commercial buildings over a certain amperage (depends on the utility and application) will have CT meters. I'm sure they are everywhere around you, you just may not have paid attention to them.

Next time you are near a commercial business, take a look at the incoming service, if there are "doughnut" looking coils that the PoCo wires pass through next to the point of connection to the building, then it's a CT meter setup.

By the way, both of my meters are inside my second garage, strange setup, but that's the way it is.

Almost All the CT metered services around here have the CTs in a CT cabinet Near the meter or theyre sitting at the bottom of the MDP.

CTs on the service drop is old school and i only know of one location that has them on the pole.

 

[manwithtools]

Almost All the CT metered services around here have the CTs in a CT cabinet Near the meter or theyre sitting at the bottom of the MDP.

CTs on the service drop is old school and i only know of one location that has them on the pole.

Most here are hanging on the SE very close to the building. Being inside an enclosure is one less tempting item for the copper thieves, not that they would know what they are or how much copper they contain.

To be clear, we have a lot of overhead service drops to facilities. I would not call it "old school", we have mostly bed rock down 1 foot or more which discourages underground service entrances.

Just because it's done one way in one part of the country does not make it so elsewhere. Same goes for the PoCo's - there are no two the same even in the same geographic area.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Most here are hanging on the SE very close to the building. Being inside an enclosure is one less tempting item for the copper thieves, not that they would know what they are or how much copper they contain.

To be clear, we have a lot of overhead service drops to facilities. I would not call it "old school", we have mostly bed rock down 1 foot or more which discourages underground service entrances.

Just because it's done one way in one part of the country does not make it so elsewhere. Same goes for the PoCo's - there are no two the same even in the same geographic area.

How do they run the CT wire down the building to the meter pan?

The overhead CTd service here has the meter pan in a box on the H-frame poles...

 

[JVarhol]

That thing above the tank, is that a heating unit? If so wouldn't the heating unit post a serious fire threat?

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[manwithtools]

CT wire routing is generally through a piece of conduit to the meter panel below.

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[MikeF2316]

It is.... with binoculars

We had a situation around here a couple of years ago, but it was with a gas meter reader. He was using binoculars to read a meter. He was standing in someone's front yard. The meter was under a bedroom window. There was a woman in the bedroom, looking out and seeing the meter reader. Hilarity ensued.

 

[DC73]

Do you happen to know where the "can't be near drains" thing is?

Been away from it for too long but it's not that it can't be near the drains. It just can't be near the drains without secondary containment to prevent oil from getting into the drains.

If your oil did find its way into a drain or a waterway, that constitutes illegal disposal and the fines can easily be on the order of what your boss said. Makes no difference that the tank is in good shape. It must have secondary containment.

Even where your boss put the tank will be bad news for your company if there is a leak and the EPA gets involved. In that case your company will be paying fines and cleaning up soil.

DC